Android is not open
 

aaaaaant . . . WRONG!!!!!

FACT - Although the Android OS is based on Linux any and all Android devices that you can purchase on the mainstream market (aka HTC G1,MY TOUCH, DROID, NEXUS ONE ect) are locked by default and you the owner and user of the device are not given root access.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? - You know all the cool SUDO commands (you know those things you type into the terminal to fix problems and install cool hacks and apps that didn't make it into the Ubuntu App store yet?)

Yea those will not work on any Android/Linux OS device without major alterations (aka rooting or jail breaking the device)

That is why Firefox's mobile web browser "Fennec" is not available for any Android device despite the fact that it is Linux compatible and can even run on any Ubuntu desktop.

When you buy a Nokia N900 your Maemo/Linux OS is rooted by default which means you can run and install virtually any APP you can get your hands on.

http://thumbla.com/images/images/pidginicon.png
Their is even Pidgin for Maemo OS (in case you didn't know Pidgin is an instant messaging client that allows you to manage multiple services at once - Everything from AIM to MSN - Grab it for FREE from the Ubuntu App store or at http://www.pidgin.im/)


FACT - Although Google claims that the Android OS is "Open Source" that did not stop Google's Lawyers from sending a "cease and desist" Letter to Android developer Cyanogen.

http://thumbla.com/images/images/cyanogwgw.png

Cyanogen is one of the leading "INDEPENDENT" (aka not employed by Google and working solely to inprove the android OS for FREE) developers who contributes DISTROS (distributions of the OS or ROMS as they are call in the mobile world) of the Android OS custom built to make your Android Devices Work and Perform at it's BEST. Cyanogen Mod is easily the most popular custom Android rom with over 30,000 active users.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? - While Google's Legal claims where over stock apps such as G-Mail and the Android App Download Center, this brings Google Inc's two-faced spirit of OPENNESS into the light of day. Simular to moves made my Apple with the iPhone - Google want to heavily control the applications you are able to run on your device. Worse than Apple they use the CLAIM of open source to get developers involved in fixing and finding bugs in the OS and creating FREE & OPEN SOURCE applications for the Android App Store, when in reality Google isn't for openness - They are against it!


On the other hand . . .
The Nokia N900's verison of the Maemo App Center is 100% OPEN and works a lot like it does in Ubuntu . . . . It comes loaded by default to update from the Official Nokia OVI.COM App Store but you can add an online sources for Apps and Updates that you want including Maemo.org and Maemo EXTRAS - After updating the software sources the app center is a mashup of all the available Apps from ALL SOURCES you choose!!!!



In Conclusion ....

http://thumbla.com/images/images/verizondro.jpg

Their are plenty of reasons why you might find that the Android/Linux OS is better than Maemo aka seamlessly integrates with all of your Google Account Services (go figure) more apps in the app store, ect.



http://thumbla.com/images/images/nokianquq.jpg
Just as their are tons of reasons why you might find that the Maemo/Linux OS is better than Android aka built-in mobile Firefox,FULL in page Adobe FLASH 9 (not just a youtube APP), Two Camera's for Skype Video Chatting, it's a real computer in your pocket!!!


The point is that >IF Google Android is going to win the race for best mobile OS it is definitely not going to be for OPENNESS!!! I personally do not own a Nokia N900 but I have been reading up about it for the past couple of days and must say the high price tag is very tempting. I have owned a HTC G1 for the past year and Although I have found it extremely buggy when multi-tasking, I have been quite happy with it. I recently sold my G1 on ebay and I am on the Market for a Nokia N900.


If you are smart enough to use Ubuntu on a daily basis than I think you will love Maemo.




Maemo vs Android

Re: Android is not open
 

Is there really any point in posting this on a Maemo forum other than to stroke a fanboy's opinion? Don't get me wrong it was an interesting read but, i think the majority of people here are already using Maemo instead of Android :P

Re: Android is not open
 

I would beg to differ . . . . I think you may find alot of people who come across this forum by Googling or Yahooing about Maemo and the N900, Undecided about their next device.

Everybody knows about Android but Maemo is a pretty well kept secret.

the fact remains Android is not open :cool:

Re: Android is not open
 

Why not stick to the truth, do you not think the N900 comes out good enough? Android is free software. The "C&D" letter was not about Android, but about distributing Google applications which are not part of Android and are not free software.

Re: Android is not open
 

The n900 has always been a device for geeks/devs to play with. The Android is a phone.

Both handsets have been marketed and designed specifically for these purposes and both fulfil them well.

Re: Android is not open
 

to be honest im sick of hearing about android and nexusone, the phone is crap the os is crap just like the icrap, why anyone would want anything other that the n900 is beyond me, you either want the best device ever released, or you dont!

Re: Android is not open
 

Anybody using the word 'fact' in caps or bold have no clue about the facts themselves. You, sir, apart from trying really hard to be a 'zealotus fanboi', have no clue about the facts of either Android or Maemo. Now the question is: an ex iPhone user, or age bellow 13? :rolleyes:

Re: Android is not open
 

Oh my... this might not end well...

Re: Android is not open
 

Oh my god . . . dude get over your self . . . You think your better than everybody just cause you know how to enter commands into a terminal . . . it is obvious that this article was written for people who are new to linux . . . you know the general population???

Re: Android is not open
 

I'm searching for a new phone, and I'm looking for a smartphone. Linux geek as I am, I'm looking for a phone with a free linux-based OS. Therefore n900 and android is in focus right now.

I share most concerns with the first post here, and therefore I'm mostly looking at maemo (and n900) right now.

But one thing is failed to mentioned, or maybe I have failed to find it. Where is the source code for the maemo operating system? What if I want to build my own system and run maemo on it? (It's not so hard if you just have equipment...)

In the case of android, all android source code is avalible on http://source.android.com , but is there any open repository for maemo?

I can't se that a system is open if the source code isn't free...

Re: Android is not open
 

Take a Look at the Mer Wiki

https://wiki.maemo.org/Mer

Re: Android is not open
 

But still... that isn't maemo...

Re: Android is not open
 

It's not that you have failed to find it. You cannot get the complete source code for maemo. You cannot run maemo on your own system.

The OP's rant is off base. Most commercially available devices running Android are locked down - yes but that doesn't mean that Android is not open. Google apps are not open and a C&D letter was sent relating to the apps- that doesn't mean the OS is not open.

Re: Android is not open
 

I don't really care how much more "open" Android or Maemo are... they're both closed to some extent.

The difference I see is with the parts that are actually open:

Maemo: mostly "copyleft", which means you are not allowed to take the open code and distribute it as closed source.

Android: non-copyleft. Whoever packs it on a handset and sells it may well throw the whole open source idea overboard and distribute it as a closed, locked, non-free binary. (exception: kernel and a few low-level components)
This is exactly what handset manufacturers want. This is exactly what they do with Android. And this, in turn, is the reason why Google chose this licensing model for Android in the first place. They know most manufacturers aren't ready for free software the way Nokia is. They want to get the benefits of the free development (like Motorola - they benefit from Nokia's work on the kernel, as I learned here), but they don't want to get their hands dirty with community involvement and open platforms and stuff.

That's one difference.

The other one is that what Nokia does for Maemo improves my user experience on whatever GNU/Linux desktop distribution I use. Can't say that for Android, which is a different planet from a technical point of view.

That's what counts for me. Not how many lines of the original OS I can download, read, compile, whatever.

Re: Android is not open
 

I would have to disagree . . . . I have used Mer OS in Virtual Box for testing.

Mer is just as much Maemo as the Android source that is distributed by Google is Droid

Mer is Maemo without the Nokia Extras

No Ovi App Store

No Ovi Maps


Hey come to think of it Maby they are not that different after all :D

Re: Android is not open
 

I think I'm pretty convinced... Until there is a totally free phone (for example a non-branded android), I think I'll guess I'm looking at maemo and n900... (maybe mer if it works on n900)

Re: Android is not open
 

I am not sure if Mer would function ideally "OUT OF THE BOX" on a N900 . . . Alot of those Nokia Extras Really make the phone into the great device that it is . . . Removing Maemo in exchange for Mer alone would probably leave you with an very stripped down internet tablet(and an amazing UI). However in MORE control and you REALLY want to turn your tablet into a mini desktop computer maby you should take a look at Easy Debian.


https://wiki.maemo.org/Easy_Debian

Re: Android is not open
 

I thought Openmoko was more open than all aforementioned options.

Too bad "open" didn't equate success.

Re: Android is not open
 

I am a maemo user and love my N900 more than any phone out there. But I don't like fud where ever i see it.

Android is indeed an open source OS, afaik most of it is released under the apache license, bsd license and gpl. Sure like maemo some component of android are closed source mainly the google apps like gmail, gtalk etc. The R&D you spoke about happened because the dude tried packaging some of the restricted part of android with his own custom mod. Google where within their right to send him a R&D and from what I heard both parties where able to reach an working solution.

Another issue i would like to talk about is the one concerning android devices not restricting the user by not giving them root access. That is not an essential requirement of an opensource device. Has long as the source code are available and the user can always download it and remove all restrictions then its all well and fine.

Most android devices are not as open as maemo in term of the power and freedom maemo users have with the N900. But comparing N900 with any of the line of android device out there is really comparing apple to oranges.

N900 is seen as a geek device, Nokia hope to use the device to appeal to developers, to allow people thinker with the device so that all feed backs can be used in developing an even better consumer ready device. Do not expect the same type of freedom and power with N910 because the target audience would be different. Already we are hearing that they would be some level of drm introduced into maemo6 based device to appease the commercial 3rd party developers. Android as it is is a consumer ready device. You may not know this but the average consumer dont even care about root access or sudo or any of those things. There are guides available online allowing people to root their device and even install custom roms, hence modding your device is allowed unlike apple which calls jail breaking illegal.

Anyway as I said before I don't see myself using an android device anytime soon because I love to be able to run native codes and the closeness of the N900 to the linux userland suits me perfectly. But am happy with what google is doing with android. The more choice of open source phones out there the better. Choice is the strongest point of open source. Things should never be an either or. The fact that you use a maemo device and it works for you does not make android evil or closed source.

Re: Android is not open
 

OTOH, I'm quite sure their failure wasn't because of being so open, either. They just changed direction too often during their early stages.

Re: Android is not open
 

The fact of the matter is that neither Android or Maemo are open. For the most part, both Google and Nokia control what devices can run their operating systems. Google's control is obvious in the market, for examples of Nokia's control, take a look at the threads here related to Chinese phones claiming to run Maemo.

In the end it doesn't matter for most users. Both Android and Maemo allow tinkerers to gain root (and if you brick your phone as a result, both have warranties that allow them to deny responsibility). For non-tinkerers, both provide a platform with a number of useful apps which can be installed and it comes down to which features and which apps are useful to you.

Now can we get on with life?

Re: Android is not open
 

The Android OS is completely open source. You can take and build your own, functional, android OS to run on any device you damn well please. NITDroid is a perfect example of this.

However, you will not get certain closed source packages such as Maps, Market, Gmail, etc. Those are google's proprietary software that they sell as the "google experience" with certain manufacturers and their phones. If you actually pay attention the google's Cease and Desist they did not say cyanogen cannot provide ROM's to the public - he cannot provide roms with their proprietary software to the public (specifically: he released their shiny new market before they did and pissed them off). Now I personally disagree with google's take on this, especially with their "Do no Harm" motto, but they did have the right to do so.

You cannot take Maemo sources and build your own Maemo OS on any device you damn well please. There is closed source components to the basic Maemo functionality that prevent you from building from scratch and even getting to a usable desktop.

In this aspect: Android is more open than Maemo. With Android you can build and create your own, functional OS, from sources. Even Stskeeps, the creator of Mer, agrees with me that the core of the Maemo OS is not entirely OSS and it causes a LOT of headache for him in building Mer.

However: The only official devices with android on them are locked out and prevent root. Google spends a lot of time locking up and fixing bugs that caused people able to root their android devices to take control. On the other hand, Nokia doesn't give two shits if you grab the rootsh package from the Extras repository and do whatever the hell you want with your device.

In this aspect: Maemo has a more open environment than Android, as the oversearing company is more open to allowing people to have access to the device they purchased.

@DaveP1 - Android only allows you to gain root if you build your own.. there is no "root me" app in the official Google Market like there is in the (mostly) official Maemo Extras repository. So Both Android and Maemo aren't on the same field as far as "gaining root" and tinkering with it.

Re: Android is not open
 

Can anyone explain exactly which parts of Maemo are not GPL (or point me to somewhere I can read about it)?

Are we talking things like the phone app and status bar, or base libraries?

Re: Android is not open
 

I think the problem here is people who don't understand what "Android" is, Android is NOT GOOGLE Google simply owns the Trademark because they purchased Android, Inc. Android is fully developed by the Open Handset Alliance which Google happens to be a part of and dedicate developers too, all of Android as a whole is open source and available through AOSP(Android Open Source Project). The closed source parts are provided by Google themselves, and are not a part of Android, The Android Open Source Project, or developed by the OHA but Google themselves.

A direct quote from someone who actually works at Google "Android is the Open Handset Alliance's mobile software platform." -Jason Chen. There are plenty of companies who have coders that contribute to AOSP ranging from eBay to PacketVideo. But no one would claim that the eBay app is part of android and is open source, Neither are the Google Apps, that's just how Google makes money on Android, Licensing them out for distribution on Google Experience devices.

If you want a device with root, buy them as a Android Developer, The ADP1, ADP2, and Google Ion were all completely unlocked and pre rooted, just don't go buying a consumer device. The people locking them are Carriers w/ HTC doing it at their request because carriers don't want to deal with exchanges over bricked devices. Last I checked there aren't any carriers demanding the N900 be locked.


P.S. I'll be happy to get anyone a ADP1 or ADP2 through my developer account at cost + shipping =D

Re: Android is not open
 

Not sure why I'm responding to this flame-bait, but I'm a sucker, always been, sooooo....

Every Android device can be "rooted" in a fairly trivial (and practically manufacturer-sanctioned) way. There are (realistically speaking) no measures in place to prevent you from rooting an Android device - they're just trying to make it harder for people to make themselves vulnerable to viruses or other attack vectors.

Technically, the reason that Fennec is not available on Android is because of the completely different architecture of Android. And technically, someone could write a (relatively) simple wrapper around Fennec that would allow it to run in Android. No one has considered it a worthwhile endeavor, however, perhaps a testiment to the worth of Android's built-in browser.

That's a gross over-simplification of the situation. Maemo is not "rooted" by default - you have to install a program that grants you sudo access. The process is actually relatively equivalent (in terms of difficulty) to the process for rooting Android.

Again, this is due to the architecture of Android, not the openness of Android. Someone could write a wrapper around Pidgin to run it on Android, but (in my experience) Android users generally prefer the built-in IM client.

There are certain parts of Google's Android distribution that are not open source. Nokia actually does the exact same thing. Cyanogen violated the difference by including Google-proprietary software with its distributation.

That does not mean that Android itself is not open source. It's very similar to the situation with many Linux distributions - in general, they are open source except for certain parts (like Nvidia's display drivers) that are not open source.

It's important to note that 30,000 active users represents less than 1% of all Android users. So.... not a particularly massive group.

Actually, I find it hilarious that you bring up Cyanogen, since its existence is actually a great example of the openness of Android. You won't find anything like Cyanogen for Windows ME or iPhone OS, because it's simply not allowed by law. Cyanogen can exist because Android (the operating system - not Google's proprietary apps) is open source.

Another point of interest: you can install any app you like on an Android phone (pending copyright restrictions). Apple's devices do not allow that. So there's a huge difference between Apple and Google as far as their operating systems are concerned. Admittedly, Maemo is more open than either of them, but you cannot deny that Apple's mobile approach is far more closed than Google's.

There's a clear difference between open source and proprietary software. I think everyone here knows that. Google understands that and has drawn a clear line between Android (the open-source operating system) and Google applications (proprietary software). That doesn't make Android (the operating system) any less open source than Linux, for which there is plenty of proprietary software.

Yes, Maemo's core is open-source, just like Android's. But just as Google includes closed-source apps with its Android distributions, so does Nokia with its Maemo distributions.

Re: Android is not open
 

Excuse me?? Short of the ADP's mentioned above which come with root... rooting almost *any* consumer android device is mostly a PITA. In the G1 you have to flash an older firmware first in order to exploit a kernel flaw, and here's your totally trivial way in which to root the Cliq.

Yeah ok...

Don't get me wrong.. I think Android is great.. but it's no where near the league of Nokia with regards to gaining root.

Re: Android is not open
 

Actually it's not at all, One Click Root still works on a majority of the HTC devices(MyTouch, G1), flashing the Droid is as simple as copying a update.zip to SD card and flashing. The Nexus One is as simple as putting it in bootloader mode and double clicking a .bat file. The Cliq is as simple as downloading 2 things, clicking a total of 3 buttons to re-flash, then entering one command in an ADB shell. Long gone are the days of goldcards and such.

Re: Android is not open
 

First I'd like to thank you for proving my point so effectively.


This only works on a particular firmware version. I forget the RC3x that it requires but it was patched... meaning that if you have one that is not that specific one this won't work, and you have to first flash *back* to that one using update.zip and then get this app.

Yes:
Download file,
rename file,
put file somewhere specific
reboot
press magic key combinations, in special order
wait
reboot
yayRoot!

Bat file?? I assume then this requires connecting to the computer .. right???

Yes.. 2 downloads, 3 buttons, plus a developer shell command...

And somehow all of these are supposed to compare to:
Open official Application Manager (HAM)
Install rootsh
Enjoy root!

No reboots, no flashing, no magic keypresses, and you're downloading from a trusted source - not some random website online who specializes in hacking devices for a living and hoping it's not malicious... and no connecting to a computer to do anything - unless you choose R&D Mode.

Sorry... I believe root should be available on the N900 by default, as all of this is "hacks" to get access to your device... but in terms of user-friendliness and easeness - no android or iphone device compares to Maemo. Maemo could, if they wanted, fix the problem that allows us to install rootsh so easily - but to this point, they've neither cared: and mostly made it public knowledge that you could do so. This is the huge difference between consumer Android, and consumer Maemo.

Re: Android is not open
 

I agree it's definitely not on the same level as Maemo, but it's hardly a PITA especially the PITA it used to be, all of the platforms are relatively easy to gain root access on, I guess I just personally don't consider connecting a device to a computer, and clicking one .exe to be entirely difficult(iPhone/Android) or copying one file to a SD card and flashing it(WM/Other Android). But yes compared to "sudo gainroot" it's definitely more effort.

Re: Android is not open
 

yeah sorry, post is very inaccurate.

Re: Android is not open
 

Well for the Droid.. and for the G1/MyTouch's that are still on the right firmware I agree that it's mostly painless. Normal users should be OK with these and less chance of a brick.

I don't know anything about the Nexus.

For the CLIQ though.. I do see that one as being a pain. 2 separate downloads, plus a series of flashes and commands that must be entered perfectly... yeah. I don't see average joe enjoying rooting their Cliq very much.

While the steps documenting is fairly clear.. and most people should be OK doing it.. well - look around these forums for a bit and you'll see :D.

That's one of the things that makes Maemo stand out so much is the ability to root the device so easily. That's also the main reason I argue that it's pointless for root not to be on there by default.. it's so bloody easy to get it that you sure aren't stopping *anybody* from doing it. May as well just be there.

Re: Android is not open
 

I don't see these forums as a good example of people, I actually feel pretty average around here. I always feel really smart hanging around xda and CrackBerry because it seems the standard user knows quite a bit less than I think they do so maybe I give people too much credit. It is interesting to see the level of dare I say "stupid" questions erupting around pretty much every device forum when a new one comes out, or anytime a new ROM/Root is released for Android, a new ROM for WM, or Leaked BlackBerry OS is released you see a wonderful sudden influx of "Oh no my device is bricked PLS HALP" and you wonder why they lock them down =D

Re: Android is not open
 

Oh no.. I don't wonder at all :D. I understand perfectly *why*.. I just don't want them to lock me out ;). I don't want to have to nearly break my device just to get access to it... because I do actually know what I'm doing with a root shell. I wish Apple and Android devices had an *official* way to root their devices.. it doesn't have to be severely point-click easy.. just possible without resorting to hacks from unknown Internet sources. Security goes out the window at that point.

(Note: I run Super-D ROM off XDA on my G1 - I find it to be more responsive and multi-task friendly than many of cyanogen's :D)

Re: Android is not open
 

I finally got around to flashing JAC's xROM 2.1 on my MyTouch while I wait for my N900 replacement and I hate how slow it is...but I miss 2.1 quite a bit after returning my Nexus. It would be nice to have little option in the boot loader called "Root" in both the iPhone and Android devices, followed maybe by a "Carrier and Software warranty will be voided CONTINUE, ARE YOU REALLY SURE" then you get root.

Re: Android is not open
 

I haven't tried a 2.1 ROM yet. Seemed too unstable... I do like to play with my devices but when the chance of bricking them is so high I run weary. I accidentally flashed a newer cyanogen without updating my radio first ... it would lockup on boot. Good thing that one was recoverable by flashing an older cyanogen again.

And for the second part.. I agree partially: It shouldn't void your damn warranty just because you get root :(. That's what's stupid and not "open" about it.

Re: Android is not open
 

http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.p...8&cid=31016760

While (most of) Android may be open source and continue to be, it's kernel will not be linux, but rather a fork of it. The definition of "open" is a little murky here, particularly if you're a kernel hacker or a hardware manufacturer.