SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

SIO2 Interactive created 2 games HoopsFrenzy & SoccerFrenzy

Then 10 users with 0 karma voted pretty much at around the same time.

No doubt SIO2 Interactive created these users to spam votes getting these apps to Extras.

BTW the new versions crashes if you happen to notice when closing the dialog asking to upgrade to full.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

i cant run soccer frenzy. it send me to payment page (paypal) and the game closes itself, with payment page left....

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

That does sound rather suspicious, but putting a question mark after your thread topic would have been a bit less antagonistic. Maybe one of the maemo.org staff members should look into it? I don't want to jump to conclusions, but if a commercial company is circumventing our community QA procedures, then that's not cool, and should be dealt with.
@OP: did you send a message to anyone as well as posting this?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

it is not a free game, why people dont "READ" before they download application... sigh...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Correction, it's a free trial (one level) with more levels/scenarios if you pay.

SoccerFrenzy does have one demo level, you just need to dismiss the prompt.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Dismissing the prompt crashes the application, how it gets 10 votes is a miracle.

I haven't message anyone else as not sure who to message to that can deal with this sort of stuff??

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

It's a good find, that seems to be suspicious but I will leave the judgment to the mod....

However for the crash you mentioned I don't exactly remember but it seems to be that's how is was?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I hope this doesn't turn out to be true, as I've been impressed with what sio2interactive are trying to do on the N900, with their engine and all. Still, that's a pretty serious allegation you are making there Venomrush, and you should be careful about making such claims without having evidence. Have you contacted the voters to check who they are? Have you asked sio2interactive himself?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Given that all of the votes came from users with no karma who registered on the same day and with just enough time between votes for someone to log out of one account and into another, I'm going to stick my head out and say they're abusing the system here.

The funny thing is every 'real' person who seems to have tried it reports that it contains a major bug, exactly the sort of thing that the QA process is designed to catch.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

one thumbs up -voters info:
https://garage.maemo.org/users/jeffgr/

e: second
https://garage.maemo.org/users/leahaudrey/

ee: third

https://garage.maemo.org/users/davidh/

and these all voted both applications. don't bother digging anymore because this seems really obivous to me.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Thanks ossipena, I'm convinced. Shame on you, sio2interactive.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

as per the WIKI , criteria for promotion says...

''At least 3 members of the testers group have voted. (proposed improvement, not final)"

so I guess this still requires the genuine testers to vote , no ?
Is this testers group an officially selected one ?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

i feel really disappointed.

idea was really promising, price wasn't so high, testingsquad could probably have taken both apps to testinglist next (to week 8) if asked nicely from VV, ......

..and then one ruins everything with such a transparent trick.


e: I quess the rule of 3 isn't yet implemented or anything but not totally sure.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

This really blows. :|
Why on earth someone would do anything like this?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Well, for money, no ? :-)

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

The problem with any crowdsourced process is that you can do something like this to "astroturf" your stuff through.

A pretty good way to prevent this would be to require at least some of the testers voting +1 that have a sufficient amount of Karma. Though then you may raise barrier of entry for new developers...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

The thing that's really depressing is that we want these games, and he wants to sell these games. This potentially ruins everything.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

My suggestion (I'm not in any way responsible for repository policy):

* Pull from extras as there was abuse involved
* An apology made from sio2interactive
* Fix the bug that enabled this to happen
* Fix bugs on sio2interactive game side, reintroduce to extras queue
* Run through QA again
* End result is a QA'ed product in Extras.

And both sides has learnt a valuable lesson - QA can help to improve your program and we have learnt that we need to watch out to not diminish our quality of Extras.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

The quarantine skipping was because I missed a setting. So that one is my bad.

The whole idea about showing who voted what was to prevent and catch things like happened here.

This is clearly abuse and the packages will need to be pulled and the publisher will be banned from Extras.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

The problem is they used underhanded tactics to publicise the game.

End result?
SIO2 Interactive have lost a lot of credibility and would you trust anything from them in the future?

Well done SIO2 Interactive you have just alienated your target audience!

I think your plan to make some money from this community has greatly diminished!



I think the voting process is probably fine as it is - as long as we can detect these type of dodgy practise.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

It does look extremely suspicious but it is only fair that the developers themselves are given the opportunity to answer the allegation. However, I do feel that no apps requiring payment should be hosted at maemo.org, whether free or non-free.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

It will be interesting to hear what the developers say - it's only fair.

However you have to question why the need to push software that is obviously sub-standard into the Extras category.

To attempt to bypass any peer-review or QA testing is illogical and stupid.

It sounds like a money-grab to me!

Maybe a seperate category can be created for non-free paid for apps?

I think the developers should reply to this thread as soon as possible - the longer they leave it the worse it will become.

It would look like they are being evasive and know what they did was wrong.

It could all be a mis-understanding.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

All email addresses used to register these users were from sio2interactive. I'm sure they just tried to get their app in as soon as possible, but this goes against the spirit if the whole QA process.

I have removed their packages and revoked access to Extras for now. I'm not against giving access back after a public apology though.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Why don't we give them a deadline to respond. (e.g. by the end of today)?

Send them an email requesting their response to the situation and inform them that they will lose the privilege of publishing thier software in Extras?

If no-one is willing to respond then pull the app.

If they SIO2 Interactive are serious about thier intent to sell software for the n900 then they will respond.

If not - then no-one will buy thier software anyway - who is willing to trust them?.

We can then bring an end to this situation

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Where exactly would you want them to appear? OVI store?

Hey, don't hang this issue higher than it is supposed to hang and please stop flaming wars before proven guilty. Even if Sio2 did forge the votes I'd comprehend to some degree. They are a commercial software company and therefore depend on returns somewhat more decent than applause alone.

As long as OVI store is what it is - a mere joke - commercial contributions will get stuck in the middle of Nowherekiszthan.

Sio2 just (eventually) did what everybody would do to get public notice: Shout as loud as they can. Though not following the rules here on maemo (which is bad but show'em the yellow card and on with the game) isn't this yet again proof that the environment around the N900 itself is not fully grown ?

Just my 2 cents...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

the thing is... there is no "they". the developer himself told us on this forum (in the threads about his games) that SIO2 is a one-man-show.

and that is worse than just "against the spirit" IMHO.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

How about an additional repository, called "commercial"? So everyone knows, what's all about?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Agreed. Going by the Sio2 thread under games it appears that the developer is a "one-man" show, so I feel he should be given the benefit of doubt for not knowing the difference between "commercial" and "non-free".

Obviously, if true, sending "testers" to paypal is deceptive but can be excused with an apology for over zealousness but the real issue is did he commit fraud by voting his game up himself or through proxies.

EDIT:

@semerandum

Isn't that what the OVI store is for?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

where's the real justification for breaking QA rules? I can't see one in your text.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I thought the Ovi store was for substandard software that wasn't correctly QA'd? ;)

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I've now added karma score and registered since information to the voter list. So spotting this can be a bit easier.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

You do bring up some interesting points, even if it they are only two coppers worth B-)

Seriously though, I'm not trying to hang the SiO2 developer before he is proven guilty. I really do think he should be given the benefit of the doubt. This could be a symptom of something bigger though, such as the clash between the Linux and Windows worlds.

In Linux free means "use and share", non-free means "use but don't share", and commercial means "use but pay up". Nobody cares if SIO2 depends on financial returns to continue development, they only care that they are upfront about it.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I have no real objection to commercial software being in maemo-extras, in my mind non-free is non-free. At one level, this is similar to the doom and quake ports.

However the registering of accounts specifically to vote it through from testing is a deliberate and informed attempt to violate the letter and the spirit of the QA process. There is absolutely no way that he can claim he didn't realise that he was not supposed to do that and therefore has forfeited any trust I may have had in him.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

This has nothing to do with commercial applications in the maemo.org repos, this has to do with following the QA rules, and it is clear beyond reasonable doubt that this was not done. (There are logs you know)

EDIT: to be less confusing

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

You don't find asking for payment from volunteer "testers" a problem then?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

That'sa completely separate issue and IIRC the QA requirements for non-free are lower. (something like does it run? is it optified? does int uninstall cleanly?)

IMO, the maemo-extras QA process is (and should be) a separate thing from Beta testing.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

As if getting a sticky in the games section wasn't promotion enough.

Cheating is cheating. Shame on you...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Before anybody drag this rant any further...

Since I start porting on the maemo I found major issues ALL along the way prooving that the whole platform is not mature enough... at all...

I start checking the Extras AFTER paying the 50 euros and realize that I was not even
able to put a .deb on the OVI Store.

And on top of that, I received shortly after the official confirmation that the OVI store doesn't EVEN accept payment... I was completely astonished that the whole platform, SDK, and Store are already release to the public, but you can't even put paid apps… unbelievable...

This is when I start checking the Extras (since I had NO other way to publish the app). Basically there's no restriction putting a non-free/commercial apps online but redirecting directly tester to any payment page is not an option, and cannot be done since you cannot update the package once released...

All that after spending about 1 month on the platform porting the engine and the games to finally arrive to theses conclusions... Everyone have to admit that is REALLY disappointing... and from my opinion NOT ACCEPTABLE...

After realizing that I have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to put my games anywhere, and my last resource was the Extras that technically speaking DO approve commercial apps (if the price is in the description) so I try to get it up there...

Examining the approval process, and get approved the first time, I found out that NONE of the criteria mentioned where coded properly:

- No need for having 3 tester to approve.

- Votes can be executed as much as you want by the same IP address. I didn't even have to use proxy or anything... (same for the application rating)

- Voters doesn't even need to have karma.

- The 10 days in standby was not working on the server and I was able to go up and running in a few hours… due to a buggy date comparison code. Does the coders did even test the whole thing? I dont know...

I feel quite ashamed cuz the device is really great, but the whole experience for game developers is REALLY disappointing, buggy, unstable and would NEVER have imagine that… not from you know who...

As people mentioned yes SIO2 is a 1 man show... and I do apologize for the ranking... I found a flaw and exploit it... I do have a family to feed and spending 1 month on the platform to realize that I cannot even get my games out there due to a poor and immature system is really disappointing and was at first really excited about it, but when I realize after spending so much time on it and that it is not really an out-of-the-box ready platform I feel really frustrated and feel that is not acceptable at all...

Im a one man operation, and I had all the good will in the world to go forward with the platform, and even after finding work around all along the way to make things work to finally ending up in a dead-end.

I had to still shout out loud that I'd still made something work out of it but couldn't really get it out there... I figure out there was a bug and I exploit it... that simple...

Please take note that I mean no disrespect to anyone from the community, I can't really be blamed, the door was wide open, and I didn't cause no harm to anybody so... I just found quite ashamed that the platform is out-there and really not ready for
game developers as well as customers... its really unfortunate...

My apologies... I just wannit to provide good commercial arcade games for the N900, but due to the lack of maturity, I was not able to get my work out there by any other means. And waiting reporting all theses bugs, and waiting for them to be fixed is not an option for me... as they shouldn't even be there at the first place...

I didn't even had to cheat... anybody could have done it.. the whole thing is wide open... probably for months… if it was illegal, they should have code the necessary protection to avoid it, instead of leaving it like that and if nobody notice that before well... I can't really be blamed ;)

If you want to put the apps out, fine with me, but please take note that there is NO other way to get a commercial game out there for the platform, and the whole situation will turn down ALOT of game developers... and games are exactly what this platform need at the moment in order to gain popularity.

Failure to do so will most likely doom the whole platform and leave it at the immature stage as it is at the moment even if from my opinion it is not ready for public...

The 2 SIO2 games out there are the first and ONLY commercial 3D games available at the moment coming from an external developer that have NO affiliation whatsoever with Nokia… and god know how much the platform need them ;)

The final decision is up to you, after this incident the bugs will probably be fixed so...

But unless something change there's no way to put commercial games out there… And not alot of people have the budget to spend 2 weeks to 3~6 months developing games that can only end up free on a platform... And without commercial games, no game developers will be interested to continue on the platform… leaving it at a moot point… which as mention earlier would be
QUITE unfortunate cuz the capabilities of the device are probably the BEST out there...

That was all I had to say about it, and my 0.02$ about the current situation for game developers.

So that's about it, I think the rant can stop now, there's not much more to say I guess...

I am also interested and willing to offer my service to make the platform more competitive, you guys know how to contact me ;)

Cheers,

ps: The close button on the buynow box is not crashing the application, it was never meant to be a LITE version or something... ;)

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Well obviously I'm pretty new here and thus still learning the ropes. Still though, I believe there should be a clear distinction between software seeking the help of testers and software seeking to profit from testers.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

This might well be true since there isn't any!

I didn't mean to offend anybody here on the forums, but even if Sio2 did break the rules there's always room to talk one-on-one rather than pillorying publically.

"Kill him and then ask him what he can bring up to his defense" is not exactly what I'd expect from a halfway contemporary open-source community...