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-   -   Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com? (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45044)

qgil 2010-02-18 22:03
Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Really?

As one of the initial promoters of the user karma concept I must say that I'm not so sure about translating it to meego.com. I wonder if it hasn't created more trouble than benefit, and if the benefits couldn't be achieved through other ways.

Ranking user "experience" is useful and many community tools do that. The problem comes (and we have got looong discussions) when comparing karma values for different actions.

For instance, GNOME's bugzilla has a rating system which is very useful (and Andre scores at above-the-sky levels there). There is Ohloh for open source developers, also with a system to get public scores. In forums you have that combination of registered date + posts + thanks that actually works most of the times. There are ways to rate news and comments. There are ways to rate apps. I'm sure it is trivial to rank wiki editors, etc...

So really, before thinking of pushing the concept of karma to meego.com I invite the Maemo community to think if we really want to do this, and for what reasons.

Texrat 2010-02-18 22:07
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
I still see it as valid, warts and all. Yes there is an inherent stumbling block with quantifying various activities but I believe we were making good progress toward finding solutions.

We will never get 100% consensus but really all we need is "good enough" combined with sound judgment to deal with those areas where karma falls short or breaks down. In fact Quim I feel you did a very good job in that regard when it became a sticking point for developer devices.

I would like to see a karma working group formed for MeeGo and nominate my good buddy VDVsx for a slot based on his excellent work and keen understanding of the issues. :D

EDIT: funny-- I was *just* about to start this topic on the maemo community mailing list.

silvermountain 2010-02-18 22:14
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Why not just a poll about it and let the members decide?
No need for groups, brainstorming, etc - just vote.

benny1967 2010-02-18 22:17
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
It has some value. Not too much, but some. (And if there's no karma, we'd probably have distinct rating systems for variuous parts of the MeeGo ecosystem... so why not have karma in the first place?)

Another thing... We got used to it. It's one of the few things we could take with us when we lose name, logo, design of the site,... who knows what else. A tradition. If seen as such, we don't have to evaluate practical usefulness.

benny1967 2010-02-18 22:19
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvermountain (Post 535459)
Why not just a poll about it and let the members decide?
No need for groups, brainstorming, etc - just vote.
it's good to discuss before making a decision. i don't believe in the quick decisions that the internet allows us to make.

silvermountain 2010-02-18 22:22
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 535464)
Another thing... We got used to it. It's one of the few things we could take with us when we lose name, logo, design of the site,... who knows what else. A tradition. If seen as such, we don't have to evaluate practical usefulness.
1) "name, logo, design of the site" - are all rather insignificant things that I'm even surprised you bring up. I think Texrat put it well when he somewhere wrote that the forum is not the community (or something to that effect).

2) "A tradition. If seen as such, we don't have to evaluate practical usefulness." I think I had to read that three times :) Do you really mean it?

Texrat 2010-02-18 22:23
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 535464)
Another thing... We got used to it. It's one of the few things we could take with us when we lose name, logo, design of the site,... who knows what else. A tradition. If seen as such, we don't have to evaluate practical usefulness.
Although I favor karma, and have quite a bit accumulated, I'm not in favor of bringing it over in toto to the new playground. That winds up being unfair to Moblin folks.

On the other hand it isn't exactly fair for people who have built up karma to see it go with no compensation (personally I don't mind starting over though; it will motivate me to work harder).

I think an equitable solution would be to erase current karma values but "seed" transferred Moblin and Maemo accounts with a one-time gift. Base it on time of organization membership-- say, 1 karma point for every 10 days with an active maemo.org or Moblin account or somesuch.

I do grant the stickiness of that suggestion though.

Texrat 2010-02-18 22:24
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvermountain (Post 535459)
Why not just a poll about it and let the members decide?
No need for groups, brainstorming, etc - just vote.
Discussion = definition. Best to define the poll parameters thoughtfully.

silvermountain 2010-02-18 22:27
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535471)
Base it on time of organization membership-- say, 1 karma point for every 10 days with an active maemo.org or Moblin account or somesuch.

I do grant the stickiness of that suggestion though.
I see some issues with that;
- Moblin/current MeeGo is developer oriented, if you want to attract Moblin users (MeeGo users coming 'from Moblin') wouldn't you end up in a situation where they come through the door and see all these people with a lot of 'internet rep' already accumulated from 'some other site'?

- is there an equivalence to maemo.org account on the moblin side?

benny1967 2010-02-18 22:28
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535471)
Although I favor karma, and have quite a bit accumulated, I'm not in favor of bringing it over in toto to the new playground. That winds up being unfair to Moblin folks.
Sorry, that might be a misunderstanding. I'm not talking about the actual karma each of us has accumulated. I simply assume we'd all start from zero with the new site.

I was talking about bringing the concept of karma over to MeeGo.

silvermountain 2010-02-18 22:28
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535474)
Discussion = definition. Best to define the poll parameters thoughtfully.
Oh I didn't mean to slap up a poll today. I am for a healthy discussion but not for a few guys to go away with it for a few months and come up with what they think is the best options for the community. I say flush it all out in open discussion - then vote.

Texrat 2010-02-18 22:28
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvermountain (Post 535476)
I see some issues with that;
- Moblin/current MeeGo is developer oriented, if you want to attract Moblin users (MeeGo users coming 'from Moblin') wouldn't you end up in a situation where they come through the door and see all these people with a lot of 'internet rep' already accumulated from 'some other site'?

- is there an equivalence to maemo.org account on the moblin side?
Please note where I said both maemo.org and Moblin organization accounts.

silvermountain 2010-02-18 22:30
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535482)
Please note where I said both maemo.org and Moblin organization accounts.
I know, please note where I said:
"- is there an equivalence to maemo.org account on the moblin side?"

Texrat 2010-02-18 22:32
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvermountain (Post 535487)
I know, please note where I said:
"- is there an equivalence to maemo.org account on the moblin side?"
... :rolleyes:

http://moblin.org/

silvermountain 2010-02-18 22:33
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535491)
... :rolleyes:

http://moblin.org/
Thanks. I'm apparently blind :)

f(x) 2010-02-18 22:36
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
I am against it.

Not really , just wanted to say that.

Back to the topic, I think karma should be calculated in different way than it is currently with maemo (Like excluding posts/thanks from karma or reducing its value might be better for the long run for meego community). Also, I suggest to give power for moderators to reward people whom doing great works for meego. Like giving some one 100+ karma as a bounce for his work rather than letting people posts 1,000,000 times on the forum about ridiculous duplicated subjects to earn "thanks/karma". In other words, I am suggesting a controlled karma.

Helmuth 2010-02-18 22:59
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Does the Karma system need a value?

Really. Qgil, you, the Admins, Mods, Nokia, Intel or someone else can Rank a User the way you want. Thanked posts, bugzilla, and so one. It's not so important.

But like the MHz Value on a Prozessor or the MegaPixel on a customer digicam. When users get involved more and try to help each other because of advancing their karma stocks the system is worth and does what it should do.

Pay the users in Points for helping each other! :) (it's simple, but it works in some ways) :D

Hmm... could we have here a kind of ultimate social network game? :rolleyes:

VDVsx 2010-02-18 23:17
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Believe or not karma/activity metrics encourage participation/activity, that's one of the reasons for the success of some social web services, they have a metric system that encourage some kind of competition, there's a couple of interesting studies that prove that.

In my opinion the gains of a karma system are bigger than the losses, so yes, we should have some similar concept.

PS- For those interested in these topics about social interaction in the web, like me, here's a cool presentation: http://www.slideshare.net/stephenpa/...dea-09-version

lma 2010-02-18 23:42
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535425)
So really, before thinking of pushing the concept of karma to meego.com I invite the Maemo community to think if we really want to do this, and for what reasons.
(+1 on the entire post). Also, if maemo.org karma were to vanish tomorrow would we lose anything important?

GeneralAntilles 2010-02-18 23:56
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvermountain (Post 535459)
Why not just a poll about it and let the members decide?
No need for groups, brainstorming, etc - just vote.
Consensus is superior to tyranny of the majority.

silvermountain 2010-02-19 00:12
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles (Post 535633)
Consensus is superior to tyranny of the majority.
I laughed.

Thanks.

RenegadeFanboy 2010-02-19 00:50
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
I think the slight unbalance in the karma "formulas" do not make a big difference. There is usually visible diff in the first 2-4 weeks and probably after 1+ year, but the first period passes quickly and the on the long run it does not matter.

With this being said, Yes to karma and some points to consider:
* Community contribution (thanks/bugz/brains), development is good to be rewarded as before
* Learning should be rewarded too, so new users can gain karma (this promotes the right behaviour)
* If there would be an action handling system in the background, that could make it easier to track/give karma on community actions

Hopefully I can make all of this into a compelling proposal on the weekend ;)

Texrat 2010-02-19 01:22
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenegadeFanboy (Post 535691)
* Learning should be rewarded too, so new users can gain karma (this promotes the right behaviour)
It would be really cool I think if there was a means of awarding one-time decent karma to first-time viewers of help resources, greeting pages, etc.

- visit the new users wiki page, get 10 karma
- leave a first post in a Welcome New Users thread, get 5 karma
- etc

And yes, I grant it's imperfect. Just a thought.

qgil 2010-02-19 03:47
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Let me keep playing evil's advocate.

Are you considering the fact that plenty of professionals will be paid to work full time developing MeeGo openly and this will give an advantage over those purely volunteering?

Until now this situation was an exception. Myself for instance, toping the ranking since always (something that didn't make me proud, actually). Imagine if we would start counting commits at http://maemo.gitorious.org and imagine that most platform nokians are there mmiting every day. Imagine that they really move their bugzilla actuvuty outside.

How will you address the fact that developers from companies have high chances of being the ones on top? Combine this with the fact that such individuals can move roles inside a company or van change companies overnight.

Texrat 2010-02-19 04:01
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Let me return the devil's volley:

For one, I don't mind that paid employees have any sort of advantage. That could be dealt with when you're using karma as any sort of award.

For another... you could simply exclude them outright. ;)

GeneralAntilles 2010-02-19 04:09
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535891)
For one, I don't mind that paid employees have any sort of advantage. That could be dealt with when you're using karma as any sort of award.
Just make sure accounts are appropriately flagged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535891)
For another... you could simply exclude them outright. ;)
An option, but, truth be told, I think the competitive aspects of karma apply to paid folks nearly as much as volunteers.

CrashandDie 2010-02-19 04:13
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
From The Interview:

Quote:
Interviewer: So why do you think you've earned this promotion?
Interviewee: I reached 2000 karma! \o/

penguinbait 2010-02-19 04:16
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
I personally like an idea I heard a while back. Everyone earns some amounts of Karma regularly, but they can only give them to others. The karma they earn cannot count towards them. This means that if you have high karma, its because the community thinks you deserve it. If a paid worker is helping the community and earning large amounts of karma, they will have well earned it.

Karma should be earned by helping others, be it answering a question or making an app, writing a blog, writing helpful wikis. People can decide how to pass out their earned karma. It actually encourages coopetition and helpfulness.

my two cents,

Texrat 2010-02-19 04:16
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
It could sure help at job review time! managers love metrics.

qgil 2010-02-19 04:20
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Texrat: a gift? By whom? Like what?

More: I understand Valerio's point that karmas are useful in communities. This is why I proposed a karma system for maemo.org in 2007 and this is why I'm still noting that most of the tools we are using in maemo.org and will use in meego.com have traditions of karma generation.

But then, in maemo.org karma has got always some (strong?) relation with the expectation of getting a free / discounted / loan device. This is something that generate uncomfortable, distorted or even childish situations. You have seen it and I have seen it to the extreme.

In MeeGo, with more device vendors and a higher potential to have a bigger community, this combination can get really uncomfortable, distorting and perhaps even more childish.

This goes again back to the karma per tool but without mixing tools and karma values. If I love bug reporting I see the incentive and usefulness of having a senior rank in Bugzilla. If I'm into open source development I see the point of Ohloh statistics putting me near the top of the crop. If I'm into forum discussions then I see the incentive of being distinguished as a senior commenter.

But... what is the point of mixing all these stats, in a single and quite arbitrary value? Please answer.

What is the message? That I am more contributor than you because I'm lucky that blogging is overrated compared to app downloads or git commits? Please answer.

What is the final purpose? Is it the distribution of devices as an incentive or is it something more. Please answer.

Texrat 2010-02-19 04:29
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535930)
Texrat: a gift? By whom? Like what?

More: I understand Valerio's point that karmas are useful in communities. This is why I proposed a karma system for maemo.org in 2007 and this is why I'm still noting that most of the tools we are using in maemo.org and will use in meego.com have traditions of karma generation.

But then, in maemo.org karma has got always some (strong?) relation with the expectation of getting a free / discounted / loan device. This is something that generate uncomfortable, distorted or even childish situations. You have seen it and I have seen it to the extreme.

In MeeGo, with more device vendors and a higher potential to have a bigger community, this combination can get really uncomfortable, distorting and perhaps even more childish.

This goes again back to the karma per tool but without mixing tools and karma values. If I love bug reporting I see the incentive and usefulness of having a senior rank in Bugzilla. If I'm into open source development I see the point of Ohloh statistics putting me near the top of the crop. If I'm into forum discussions then I see the incentive of being distinguished as a senior commenter.

But... what is the point of mixing all these stats, in a single and quite arbitrary value? Please answer.

What is the message? That I am more contributor than you because I'm lucky that blogging is overrated compared to app downloads or git commits? Please answer.

What is the final purpose? Is it the distribution of devices as an incentive or is it something more. Please answer.
I don't want to define gift (award). I was using it in a very broad sense anyway. But if you like, pick any term that also includes earned qualifications like standing for council, etc. Right in line with Valerio's remarks (which I thought were in line with mine, but maybe that's not obvious based on difference in reception).

I understand the teeth-gritting over childishness and wish there was an easy answer. This community has been a victim of its own popularity and with that comes a broad spectrum of participants, mature and immature. There is no simple solution to that. But I think overall competition is good.

Mixing (Normalizing) stats becomes necessary IMO for cross-functional people, or those who steadily grow into higher responsibilities. But maybe you have an answer already for that?

Zero recognition will come with its own problems, so I doubt anyone is advocating that extreme. But no matter what yardstick is used, or how its divided, we have to take the bad wth the good. Best we can do is try to minimize the bad.

qgil 2010-02-19 04:37
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinbait (Post 535918)
Everyone earns some amounts of Karma regularly, but they can only give them to others.
Alright, this would mean that aside of the bugzilla karma, wiki karma, git karma and whatnot karma you would have a pure "community karma" based on votes received from your peers.

Looks like something in the lines of http://drupal.org/project/user_karma

Again, that would be another interesting and concrete metric: community appreciation.

What I still don't see at all is the usefulness of an absolute karma value targeted, explicitely or not, to get new devices in special conditions.

Texrat 2010-02-19 04:39
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535961)
What I still don't see at all is the usefulness of an absolute karma value targeted, explicitely or not, to get new devices in special conditions.
I don't see anyone in THIS thread pushing for that...

:confused:

EDIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535961)
Again, that would be another interesting and concrete metric: community appreciation.
We have that, to an extent, with karma from Thanks.

qgil 2010-02-19 04:52
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535964)
I don't see anyone in THIS thread pushing for that...

:confused:

EDIT


We have that, to an extent, with karma from Thanks.
I'm not saying that karma promoters push that idea. I'm only saying that chances are that a strong focus on karma leads to this uncomfortable, distorting and sometimes childish side effect. I have seen it more often than wished in maemo.org and I wouldn't feel proud if These patterns show up in MeeGo around "our" concept of karma.

And I think it's unavoidable. Whatever elements brought this side effect to maemo.org are only multiplied in MeeGo.

PS: Thanks buttons reward forum contributors. There is no thanks button in e.g. Bugzilla.

Texrat 2010-02-19 04:52
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Sorry for posting so much but this is a subject I have strong feelings about and I'm close to going to bed anyway so you can do without me a while. ;)

First let's talk more about karma normalization.

Currently we have various formulae that attempt to find balance between various activities. I've said before and will say again that's an admirable goal but one I now believe to be flawed and more work than it's worth.

When I made those points recently someone tried to equate karma to the real world and claimed it failed. I believe that sentiment was also flawed and here's why.

In real life we are paid based on various factors, chief among them what some entity deems the labor to be worth (per region). No one involved in this human value benchmarking seems overly concerned with how much a dogcatcher makes compared to an investment banker. Instead, they rationalize the pay solely on the merits of the labor and its perceived return to the payee.

No one charges the dogcatcher any less for a hamburger at the deli. He pays the same as the banker.

I think we should look at karma the same way. Rationalize it within the sphere of the activity itself, and then be done with it. We could look at it in terms of ratio: effort expended to perceived return. That should actually work out in the long run-- assuming simple and sane formulae can be determined.

This is the sort of normalization I would prefer.

Texrat 2010-02-19 04:53
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535977)
PS: Thanks buttons reward forum contributors. There is no thanks button in e.g. Bugzilla.
Understood. I was not suggesting that Thanks is the only answer, just commenting.

qgil 2010-02-19 05:05
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
In real life, paid job is one of the activities of the day. It is already complicated to abstract and compare the value of the work of a teacher and a bus driver. But true, you can compare salaries at the end.

But at least nobody (I'm aware of) attempts to create an overall social karma metric that evaluates my citizen value based on my work... plus my family activities plus my computer hobbies plus my sport performance...

And this is exactly my point against a unique karma rank like the one shown at http://maemo.org/profile%20/list/ - note that the sublists on the right are actually much more illustrative in its own context.

Texrat 2010-02-19 05:08
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
I'm not talking at all about a "citizen value". And I was actually trying to get away from "comparing salaries". But maybe I tried so hard to be objective and soar at the 10,000 foot level that my meaning is unclear. :(

Anyway my brain is tired from battling software issues at work all day so it's time for me to leave the debating to others more able. I appear to be coming up short.

EDIT: and Quim-- I hope you understand you have a built-in pent-up karma offering just for showing up. That's not meant to diminish your high score and ratio (:D) but just putting it into perspective.

GeneralAntilles 2010-02-19 05:22
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535930)
But... what is the point of mixing all these stats, in a single and quite arbitrary value? Please answer.
Let's not then? Let's translate the existing maemo.org karma interface, but only give raw numbers. Instead of assigning a certain value to each individual item, let's just throw the numbers up there for the overview. How many bugs have you filed? How many posts have you made? etc.

We still have the top lists for each category, but no overall number. Comparisons within each category are generally pretty valid but if we make no attempt to assign value to each type of contribution then much of the contention goes out the window.

NvyUs 2010-02-19 05:33
Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?
 
would it not be better to keep forum karma separate from other kinds use it towards a forum rank system instead, like 1000 karma gets meego general status or whatever.
if theres any developer programs just say top X amount qualify from forum and look at any special cases that may be deserving too but the majority go to the other part of the site where karma is really deserved.
maemo.org talk karma is over inflated and makes up too much of the overall, look at me for example already have over 200 from T.M.O which would of qualified me for last device discount program even though i'm undeserving.


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