Cleaning N900 FUD
 

THIS IS A CONSTRUCTIVE THREAD IN THE COMMUNITY SUBFORUM.

It looks like almost any thread these days is good to derive in a "sure, but what about Harmattan/MeeGo running in the N900", followed by a chain of messages that don't contribute much more than bad community mood.

You can say: "It's all you fault". Ok, so be it. Now, can we move forward here in maemo.org?

While it is true that Nokia hasn't communicated Harmattan or MeeGo official support plans for the N900, it is also true that all the FUD is not helping the average N900 user following Talk. We are in the best momentum Maemo ever had, sales and countries of distribution are increasing, Nokia cares more than ever about this platform and the team pushing it, entities like Ovi or Forum Nokia are putting more and more resources... and then poor Joe reading posts here feels "abandoned".

So no, Nokians here in Talk can't answer to a business question like that. Still we can be helpful discussing whatever technical is relevant and helping removing FUD and bad mood from Talk.

So what about a "What can we realistically expect..." wiki page + thread under N900 subforum to discuss and summarize the flesh around this topic, and clean the many senseless arguments and noise we can read these days among valid and licit doubts and concerns?

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Maemo 5 is still a viable platform.

Who knows when Maemo 6/MeeGo will be ready - it could be many months before something tangible is realised.

This is an open-source device which means the community can take the software in any direction we like.

I'm really happy with my n900 - I'm constantly using it and not having Harmattan or MeeGo available at the moment does not hinder it at all.

Not even long-term will this be a problem - there are many community members that care about the platform.

Over the past couple of months the speculation has got absolutely nowhere (I am guilty as anyone on this).

I suppose there is no point speculating what Nokia's plans are - I'd rather concentrate on the n900 itself.

As a developer I have been waiting to see what happens with the direction of Maemo - I have no idea what Nokia's plans are for the n900 but I will write software for the device anyway.

It's in my best interests to do so.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I think it's easy to feel abandoned because (as far as I know) there are no "official" plans to do anything other than minor bugfixes on this platform.

Maybe I just haven't found the "official Nokia announcement page" yet - can anyone point me to one?

I think it would really help if there was a simple, semi-official "roadmap" page that listed what we can realistically expect from Nokia, what "might" happen, and what's just make-believe (better Maps, Flash 10, QT 4.6, Maemo 6, etc). Is this what you meant, qgil? It's a great idea, but I feel that it will only add to the confusion unless it is backed by real information from Nokia.

At the moment all I know is hearsay from these forums, misleading chatter from the tech blogosphere and press releases from Nokia which may or may not apply to me (e.g. "Free navigation on your Nokia. Forever." ... what do I believe ???).

I think you've asked a really important question & I hope we manage to improve the atmosphere here.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

So allay the fears, clear up the uncertainty, and remove the doubt.

The fears are reasonable. Nokia has a pretty clear track record of abandoning the older platforms, and simply saying "Please don't talk about our embarrassing lack of communication" doesn't actually solve the problem. I'm sure we all understand that you can't personally make the call to change this approach, but it is possible to change it, and if Nokia wants the FUD to stop, then someone who can make that call needs to make it.

Fundamentally, there's nothing "technical" that is relevant - this isn't a technical problem, it's a project management and community relations problem. Other commercial providers of free software (and, indeed, proprietary software) manage to do better at those things by not being as secretive as Nokia is. If you'd like their kind of outcome, you need to try their kind of approach.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I agree. While my belief in turn-by-turn, meego, portrait mode etc for the N900 is well below 10% at the moment, I still think that crying after these features now is like refusing to travel anywhere in the world until teleportation has been invented.

Sure, it will take a longer time to take that 10 hour flight today, but hey, no one knows exactly when teleportation will be available to the main-stream, so we might as well go ahead and travel the old-fashion way for now...

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Thanks, Quim, for putting this straight.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

What about a formal "Maemo" Nokia announcement page or even a link to a page at Nokia's site.

If it's not on the page then it's not official (hopefully the page won't stay blank!).

A simple request like this in theory stop the enormous amount of speculation in these forums.

For me this is the problem. Nokia just don't seem to communicate with the community (not in a formal sense).

Rather then relying on third-party blogs and quotes to get information we can go to a formal announcement page instead.

We can then hold discussions on the "announcement" page rather than using the forum.

If Nokia can communicate in a strong poitive way then it will be better for the community and become a more positive relationship.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

A big part of the problem is that a lot of people are ready to believe anything someone posts here or in a third party blog.

Someone claims that some important guy from Nokia told him something at some conference and a dozen people reply with enraged posts as if it were a fact.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I think that we need to wait first for MeeGo project to release at least code and first testing root filesystems for any ARM device so we will be able to check how it works (never mind will it be pure console or X11 with just xterm).

Until that we should go back to speculations when next firmware drop for system which we are already using (read: Maemo5) will appear and will it fix bugs which we have or not (rather not) and how many new features we will get (few or less I think).

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

"Our" is a really big set. You mean Nokia executive management.

Quim's point as I understand it is that the decision is made high enough up that it's out of his hands, and ranting about it here is pointless at this time.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

To be completely clear; are you suggesting a page in which Nokia communicates with us what we can realistically expect, or a page in which we make wild uninformed speculations about it? In other words are you trying to remove people's fears, uncertainties and doubts, or simply contain them in one place?

Yes, as I said, I'm sure we understand that it's not Quim's call.

I (slightly) disagree. Ranting about it here does two things; it informs anyone coming into this community about Nokia's attitude to communication, which is useful information in itself, and it provides a body of evidence of the costs of that attitude which should be useful in helping people like Quim get a change from Nokia management.

Clearly, there is a problem, and Quim's trying to fix it/make it go away. My point is that the problem, and the solution, do not lie with this community, and therefore trying to deal with it here is, as you say, pointless at this time. We can't fix this, only Nokia can.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

People need to understand that the phone medium is highly transient, especially in the current market place. If it does what you need today and for the foreseeable future just live with it. In 18-24 months the N900 will be long superseded and forgotten about.

Why do people expect so much support from a phone manufacturer for a product that has already been out for a few months? The major bugs are now solved, and I can't see any reason why Nokia are going to invest any money in adding features.

The purpose of the Maemo platform from Nokia's POV is so they outsource the cost of developing 'features' and support to the community which does it for free. All they intended to provide is a viable starting point and then it goes loose.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I've seen rational discourse achieve many productive things, but I've yet to see much good come out of ranting (other than personal catharsis).

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Well, however you characterise the feedback that's being given, it's being given. I simply suggest that if there is a desire to stop the complaining, then the correct approach is to fix the problem that people are complaining about, not to simply try to stop them talking about it. Furthermore, fixing the problem is entirely within Nokia's power, albeit not Quim's personally, so that's where efforts need to be aimed.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Perhaps not ranting per se, but stating the cooperative's lack of communication in hot subject.
It usualy leads to more aware consumers, which in turn refine (and sometime redefine) competition.

I personaly would have to agree with ewan, unless we misunderstood the purpose of the thread in discussion, and the intention was sort of realistic wish-pool/brainstorm for Nokia to pick from what it can/will to implement.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

You're still speaking too broadly. Some feedback is constructive, and some is not. Some is properly targetted, some is not.

Look, I tend to indulge speculation myself, more than Quim would prefer-- but I also recognize that there are reasonable limits and proper channels for it. If people truly want to facilitate change, then they target the right channels. Otherwise, they pointlessly rant whereever and whenever. Let's diminish the latter and push for the former, okay?

So... back on topic.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I suggest that users of talk.maemo.org should be allowed to discuss matters relating to Maemo as they wish, without Nokia censoring them. If Nokia do not like the speculations, the uncertainty and the doubt that surround Maemo and the N900, they know exactly what they need to do.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

There's been no talk about Nokia censorship, Matan. That is pure hyperbole on your part, contributes to the FUD and is counterproductive to this thread.

Back on topic, please.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Isn't this an indication that the community (yes, not all the community) is interested in this topic? Lack of communication leads to speculation, leads to arguments, leads to bad moods.

Sure, but ignoring it won't make it go away.

So why doesn't Nokia build on that momentum? It doesn't matter to the average user what Nokia is doing behind closed doors, they don't see it. What they do see are press releases and announcements that are carefully worded to leave ambiguity surrounding the N900/Maemo5 combination.

I see a wiki edit war over the nuances of what "turn-by-turn" means, or the latest blog/announcement/rumor. Not to mention a 100+ page thread like many of the other rumor/speculation threads.

If the intention is to remove the FUD from talk.maemo.org, then where will it go? It won't just disappear. Where can I share my thoughts and feelings (both good and bad) if not here? If you really try to eliminate FUD here, it will crop up on other sites, perhaps even specifically created sites. These sites will start popping up on google. What then? I suspect the FUD will grow exponentially as not enough people will care to monitor several sites and try to assuage doubts and fears other places. That would certainly harm the momentum for the platform if 3 of the first 4 links are to other sites overun with FUD.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

OK, but what is the topic of this thread - solving the communications problems, or stopping people talking about them in inconvenient manners?

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

When a Nokia employee with moderator rights in this forum writes: "Repeated rants will be moved elsewhere." When all his post is a repeated rant that we heard a million times, and concludes with "and clean the many senseless arguments and noise we can read these days among valid and licit doubts and concerns", how is that not a plan for Nokia censoring what they do not want their users to hear?

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Action and reaction. If there were more transparency about the future of the N900, then there would be less FUD. No one wants to get stuck with a device that can't be officially upgraded to the next vendor-supported OS.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

(*sigh*)

:(

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

While I agree with the general idea that complaining here is probably not very useful, I disagree with a few things you've said.

Some bugs might be fixed, but important ones that people usually expect to be working on any currently sold cell phone are not. Some examples: no way to format contacts,olny two profiles, no access to SIM menu, no Java (ME or SE), small rootfs, etc

I think this is the worst part. I don't expect so much support for a product that has already been out for a few months. I expect that the basic functions are all there and that they are all working. I don't mean running the full openoffice suite, but doing everything any cheap GSM cell phone does or is expected to do nowadays.

When those things don't work or are absent we complain about them. When the company doesn't even officially talk to us about them, we complain louder. When we see that many things "will be fixed only in Maemo6" it is obvious that we desperately want to know if and when maemo 6 will run in the current, somewhat lacking, N900, because it seems to be the only way to get the fixes.

When Nokia+Intel announced MeeGo it is just expected that the people who were waiting for those fixes get anxious because now the future has just got fuzzier. We might complain even louder.

To the question of not investing money, i think it is plain wrong. Not from a business case point of view, but from a moral point of view (which might or might not reflect in business). Nokia has sold a product that is good for doing some things but lacks in many expected areas. If it were fully open, they could have said: "here it is, here are the docs and good luck". But since many of its core is closed, thre is no way the community can fix things and we depend on them to fix things. They can't just pretend that the N900 is finished. It doesn't solve the problems.

I was really upset that while searching for workaround I realized that Nokia is still selling the N900 as a cellphone, while it should be sold as a beta internet device with some cellphone capabilities. I also understood, by talking to other members, that the phone stack was somewhat hacked together and so they wouldn't want to mess with it anymore.

Nokia should have an official page, in the official Nokia.com domain, where everything about the N900 is clearly spelled out. Roadmaps, hints, fixes, etc.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Moving posts to alternate threads is NOT censorship. It is forum management. You can still find your rants of choice all over this forum.

Back on topic please.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Described very clearly in the original post:

After reading that, why would anyone think there was even a remote suggestion to "stop people talking"?

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Now does everyone see why this needs to be managed?

If we can define one place where these type of comments can be made at least Nokia management may get a better understanding of us - thier customers.

It seems most threads seem to de-generate into this type of discussion and it's a real shame.

There is an awful lot of frustration and it's not doing any good.

In the end Nokia may ignore us completely because of this.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

soeiro - Thanks for the response.

I wasn't excusing the current state of affairs I was just stating them as I saw them. Please don't take what I said as anything more than opinion.

I feel that most of the time people as questions [rants] about features and don't first think "why would Nokia do this?". They're a business and have chosen a path of using the OSS community phenomenon to reduce their overheads specifically after sales support and development. I remember someone posted up a paper here a while ago with corporate strategies on how to use the OSS community to your advantage.

Nokia can't do the Apple route of locking in customers upfront and then making the real profits back through selling apps/music down the track. So instead they make the upfront money on the device (the business they know) and then look to reduce all future costs.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

The downside would be that it is hard to sort through large threads to distill real information from them. One big long complaint thread wouldn't show Nokia anything other than there are a lot/certain people who like to complain about a variety of topics.

Perhaps a FUD forum would work better, at a glance you could see which topics (based on thread titles/ replies) are hot topics?

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

This continues to veer from the original request, which wasn't for a "complaint thread" per se but rather a discussion and eventual summary. A brainstorm if you will.

I know that semantic pedanticism may seem foolish on the surface but making sure there's a general understanding of terms can significantly reduce the noise. So let's avoid tangents, straw men, etc.

Raw complaints tend to result in noise. Complaining with purpose, however, can avoid it.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

As I said earlier, it's not clear where the information would come from for the proposed wiki page. If it's no more complete or authoritative than existing sources, then it doesn't move us forward.

It seems to me that Quim is attempting to stem or corral the FUD that is spreading around the place. It further seems to me that there are two ways you can do that:

• Stop people talking about this stuff, or less drastically restrict such discussions to particular places,
• Give people some actual solid facts, and let the fears and uncertainties naturally go away.

It's not clear which of those two approaches the proposed wiki page/thread is going to be taking.

Edit: typo

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

It's clear enough to me that "discussion and summary" completely rules out the "stop people talking" path. Simple logic.

Your point about a fact-based approach depending on facts, however, is well-taken. There is certainly a void worth filling.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Ok fair enough. May I create a page here : http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/ ?

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Well, you referred to "a discussion and eventual summary", which implies to me, talking about something, reaching a conclusion, summarising the position, and then stopping. Anyone and everyone is free to summarise the current position on the wiki if they think it would help, but that doesn't in and of itself stop people expressing their fears on the forum, and it does still seem to me that that is the underlying purpose of the proposal - if it isn't, what really changes?

Fundamentally I think that that is the only approach that will work, and it will work easily. There will be less expression of fear, uncertainty and doubt when there actually is less fear, uncertainty and doubt, and that requires facts, and that requires Nokia to provide them. Nothing else will help solve the problem that (if I'm understanding him correctly) Quim is trying to solve.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Starting a thread in CAPS LOCK makes it sound like a rant, too :rolleyes: And yes, this is the first time ever that I don't fully get a post from Quim :D
IMHO, we pay the price of the N900 success - til the end of November, this was a place for developers and powerusers. Then, the masses of endusers started to pour in. This has massively shifted the balance of this forum.

In addition, Nokia themselves poured a lot of Uncertainty and Doubt over us, especially with the stepchild-feelings given to us related to the Ovi Maps (adding insult to injury, giving free navigation to Symbian while we can't even do an offline search), Ovi Store (this is simply ridicilous!), the limitations of Exchange support (come on, no Google sync?!?), the problems with the USB connector (we 3 apes don't hear, see or say anything) and the MeeGo announcement (which in itself is a very positive thing IMHO). The fears then started to creep up from these actions.

OTOH, for me, the N900 with Maemo 5 is indeed the best mobile device ever created and I look forward to PR1.2 with QT 4.6 to finally arrive at a stable platform level very much similar to MeeGo, hopefully also enabling Nokia to give us some real Ovi love.
MeeGo itself will be a fantastic platform to develop for, as it builds more momentum, targets a broader audience and offers a really mature framework/stack.
The offerings for development environments get better, too - hopefully attracting more and more developers and making "Hello world" (and its packaging) finally a bit easier.

Right now, I'm in love with python, d-bus, gstreamer and gtk - times coming, I'll move to QT to learn something new again (and for good finally I hope). Here is what the N900 enabled me to churn out in short time:

• Sleeper widget (mediaplayer pauses after 15/30 minutes)
• Recaller widget (record audio from microphone or calls). Autorecording function in prototyping stage :-)
• Shutter widget (IR control of the Nikon DSLR digicam family)
• Much improved Wiicontrol for easy gaming with DrNokSNES, with BT autostart and DrNokSNES autolaunch.
• Bluezwitch widget to switch Bluetooth on/off
• Ports of moodlight and mclock to Maemo 5

For me, the N900 offers most I ever dreamt of, and I'm very satisified with it. But still, Nokia should show at least SOME support and publish kind of roadmap of what we can expect during the lifetime of our device. Of course, their internal mindset is already fully focused on MeeGo/Step 5 and nobody volunteers for Maemo 5 work anymore. But Nokia must learn to treat this platform as a computer / OS, not as a phone!

I love the N900, Maemo 5 rocks, together the offer fantastic opportunities, but Nokia needs to make a final effort to finish their work on this platform. They are a part of this "community", too!

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

As far as I can tell, the negative vibes do not come from intentionally fabricated FUD, but they're real concerns from existing Nokia customers who've invested their time, money and heart into one of Nokia's best (yet) product: The N900.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

But that's a normal process anyway! If the talk goes on forever what the heck was accomplished other than generation of hot air?

That was mostly rhetorical... I'm not looking to continue down that tangent. Rather, I'll wait for Quim to step back in and say what he can/will about the concerns thus far.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I think it's funny to see so many people being irritated that the super moderator are suggesting some moderation in this fora. Meamo.org is, in my opinion, a very useful fora with many helpful members, but it is, however, the least moderated fora I've ever been a member to. Elsewhere, deleted posts that are off topic are (for the great majority of the members) considered as a good thing for the sake of the fora itself and the diskussions held in it. Here, they are considered as censorship.

How about a sticky on how to get in touch with Nokia customer care? Becouse to me, all the ranting going on here right now, are more obstructive to me getting the full out of my n900, than Nokias inability to communicate.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Texrat, do you think we are looking for something along these lines either as a thread or wiki page?

Per discussion in this thread

USB connector issues
1) There is a *potential* design flaw with the usb connector (surface mount vs through hole.
2) There is no visible evidence of design changes in later production units vs early/pre-production units (possible changes to pads/bonding).
3) Nokia has made limited announcements (citation) regarding extent and warranty coverage.
4) Depending on damage and Nokia Care Center, this may be covered by warranty.
5) In some cases warranty coverage is being denied.
6) There may be up to several weeks before a new/fixed unit is received.

Now, this may not be the best summary, but it is a summary (hopefully as correct/truthful as can be). But, I don't see how this serves to alleviate any FUD. There have been no concrete statements from Nokia that would really alleviate FUD for current or potential owners.

As that is getting to be a lengthy thread, I assume it is on the same level as other issues. Currently the thread has been pretty well mannered, but that could change quickly. It's an issue that I have a lot of FUD about (Fear that it will happen to my N900, Uncertainty that I will get it fixed under warranty, Doubt that Nokia has really addressed the issue.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

It will not go on forever. It will go on as long as there is a need for it.

What is accomplished is people express their concerns about how they feel they have been treated. They feel it is their only chance to be heard.

If Nokia doesn't like the noise, they should do something about it.

They used the N900 in the MeeGo PR campaign, but ask them if we(N900 Owners) are getting it and they are ambiguous at BEST.

The current crop of discord is coming from the seeds that they have planted.