Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

We're all frustrated by the long-standing Maemo pattern of Nokia building an OS for one device and dropping support later. This is thoroughly covered in other threads. :)

THIS thread is looking ahead to MeeGo. Will things get better going forward? Here's my hack analysis -- what are your thoughts?

Reasons for hope:
* Qt 4.6 hopefully means the new apps will keep on coming for a long time.
* A shared OS base hopefully means that bug fixes & enhancements to shared components will keep on coming for a long time.
* Openness & shared OS base will make it easier for community UXs.

Reasons for skepticism:
* The UX component might still be device-specific & thus subject to ROS.
* The fact that Harmattan is (IIUC) still using deb may mean that it's less compatible with other MeeGo "instances" and less likely to benefit. That makes me wonder if people worried about ROS should consider skipping Harmattan?
* Thwarted by closed hardware drivers??

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Don't forget the different arm families those new projects will be compiled for, so they won't directly run on our older devices.
Yes, you can rebuild them, provided you have the sources and the development environment, but it's not an easy task.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Sounds like fun. :(

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

No we all aren't. The noisiest of us are, and they seem to be the ones that just got to know Maemo with their shiny N900. The whining is really getting old guys.

770 ran OS2005, OS2006, OS 2007HE and OS2008HE
N800 ran OS 2007 and OS 2008 (Chinook & Diablo).
N810 ran OS 2008 (Chinook & Diablo), because it wasn't around for OS 2007.

That's not building an OS for one device and dropping support later.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

* No matter how many UX changes vendors do, they need to provide the official MeeGo API if they want to call their product a MeeGo device.
* I bet the MeeGo build infrastructure (OBS) will minimize the rpm/deb hassle for developers. I expect the average user not to even bother about this.
* Closed hardware driver are problematic only when the owners don't provide updated versions for new releases. The MeeGo project is working hard to have those drivers owners on board.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

MeeGo is open-source.

The obsolescence argument makes no sense!

When MeeGo is eventually ready I would imagine it will be possible to port it to older devices too - 770, n800 & n810 as well as the n900.

One of the reasons I chose the n900 was because it's open-source and not a proprietory OS.

Ok there are close-source binary blobs in maemo - but that will eventually change.

BTW: Harmattan ~= MeeGo

I've had proprietory devices in the past and obsolescance or "legacy" support always frustrated me.

MeeGo is the way to go and actually gives us more choices, even older devices can benefit from this.

Imagaine the 770, 800, 810 and n900 running the same OS?
It could happen.

There is nothing wrong in being skeptical but I would rather choose a more positive state-of-mind.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

The reason that Nokia have to keep moving through OSes is that the hardware for these devices is moving forwards at such a rate. It is not like the desktop market where a 3 year old machine is still pretty capable. A three year old smart phone is like a chocolate teapot (cue barrage of abuse from N770 owners).

You can't keep the OS fresh and taking advantage of new hardware while keeping backwards compatibility. And if you did you'd only end up in a mess as apps would have to be compiled for different architectures and specifications.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

That's nice and I (we?) appreciate your efforts, but please also try to get them to actually open source their drivers. That's the ultimate solution I'm sure most of us are hoping for.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Linux is doing ok!

When MeeGo is ready Linux will be doing just fine on mobiles too.


I think your argument is weak.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

This is either a lie or said out of ignorance.

The devices (770, N800, N810, N900) are closed - a lot of their functionality depends on closed drivers (kernel or user space) from Nokia, so only Nokia can port meego (or any other OS) to those devices, but they already indicated they do not intend to do it. You can still hope that they give you the necessary information, either by documentation of the hardware they use or by opening their code, but there is no real reason to expect it to happen.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

So is the Mer project a waste of time?

I don't think this is a lie - it's just my humble opinion.

I am fully aware that there are closed-source aspects to this devices. e.g. gps & phone functionality.

However, that does not mean it will never happen. The MeeGo "stack" is open-source and the licensing terms allow the option to include proprietory drivers.

Maybe Nokia might change thier mind - who knows.

Personally I hate proprietory drivers but unfortunately they do exist.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

MeeGo is a project of the Linux Foundation so please explain further your argument.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Nokia tries *a lot*. Ask hardware vendors.

There is a good discussion about this somewhere in this thread...

Basically, Nokia puts considerable effort pushing hardware vendors in that direction. Open source drivers play well with the Nokia chipset strategy and with Linux development. But of course these companies need to make business, so asking them to open their IPR without suggesting any alternative is not the best approach.

MeeGo, with Intel as initial founder (a company with good track offering open drivers), is one of the biggest and most concrete public actions Nokia could push in that direction.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

I'll explain this further:

The Linux kernel supports enormous amounts of hardware devices (e.g mass storage, usb devices) and CPU architectures (e.g. x86, ARM). The installation of the kernel and it's modules can be as small or as large as you want them to be.

For example I used to have a custom install of Slackware(current) on my laptop. It includes kernel version 2.6.33. Great kernel but the wireless driver breaks on my hardware. I replaced the kernel with an older version - 2.29.6 worked perfectly. The rest of the software still runs fine with the older kernel. I did not need to re-compile anything. E.g. Firefox, Openoffice and cd/dvd burning was fine.

I also installed all this on another laptop (much older)- but could use the latest kernel (2.6.33) and everything was still ok (the older kernel worked too). Both laptops were x86-based but were completely different specifications.

This older laptop could not use compiz special effects so I had to switch them off but the installed applications still ran fine.

I see no reason why MeeGo can do the same thing with older Nokia devices. If we talk about hardware abstraction then different kernel configurations would be needed but the higher-level stuff like user applications should stay the same.

Imagine if MeeGo was available for the n900 and n800.
The n900 is capable of making phone calls the n800 cannot do that. The only difference should be the driver. The rest of the software should still be the same.

However if we consider the n770, n8x00 & n900 in the same "family" then MeeGo can unify these devices together. Just because a device is older does not always mean "less-capable". Pre-n900 devices support OTG usb and use larger screens.

I know that mobile devices vary wildly compared to PC-type systems but I think many of the principles are the same.

As long as Nokia, Intel and other companies adhere to the MeeGo "standards" then cross-platform and older devices can benefit from this.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

I wasn't trying to imply you don't. I really do appreciate your (previous) efforts, like I said. You just sounded like you'd given up on certain vendors. Maybe Intel could threaten to make an SoC that obsoletes their solution :D

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Which hardware vendor prevents you from telling us to what the retu/tahvo ADCs and GPIOs connect on the 770/N800/N810?

Who makes the phone and the GPS chips in the N900? Maybe we can go and ask them for the specs?

Why not choose a chip with free drivers, when there are so many available, instead of selecting one without free drivers and then trying "a lot" to convince the vendor to open it?

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

See any Java midlet and you'll see what this is not as easy as you make it sound.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Maybe the closed vendor is just so much cheaper that Nokia can't afford to look elsewhere? On the other hand, their scale gives them significant leverage.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

An argument that's certainly valid for big generational transitions like from 770 to N800 or N810 to N900. It's not, unfortunately, valid for the marketing and business-based reasoning that seems to be behind Harmattan support on the N900. There have been no valid technical arguments presented, and at least one invalid one that I've heard directly from the mouth of a top Nokia executive (capacitive).

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Hey, please don't misread my intentions -- I was trying to ask honest questions and start a rational discussion b/c I care about MeeGo. But I understand many of us on this forum have rant fatigue these days. ;)

Of course, but sometimes the devil is in the details... I've watched the Diablo community SSU discussions and the Mer discussions pretty closely. Nokia does cooperate substantially with the community (which is great!), but not always as much as we would like. There are sometimes roadblocks. The good news is that I think that Nokia is really learning how to work with the community and give them the tools they need to extend the lifetimes of their devices and I think MeeGo reflects this. And that's really good news!

So, for example, MeeGo applications developed for Harmattan should be effortlessly available on other MeeGo devices and vice versa -- maybe just a compile away? If so, that really sounds great.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

As an N770 end user, I was quite frustrated when support dropped for OS updates. Initially, I was hesitant to install HE version due to their clearly labeled "not supported" status. Eventually I did install OS2007HE and got Skype/Gizmo5 working, which was a huge boon since I use my N770 when I travel.

I don't upgrade hardware often and my 10 year old PC is still kicking along with openSUSE 11.2. I guess my expectation of open source is that hardware will still be usable with newer OS versions, given that experience...

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

I am not a fan of closed source drivers.

But the issues with them can be solved if MeeGo has one very simple rule.

The API to the closed source component must be open and documented.

This will allow Open Source UI components to be created and merged with the whole meego enviroment.

Then as users our only problem is hardware providers that develop closed source drivers but fail to fix any bugs or issues before dropping device support.

Easy to solve refuse to buy from those manufactures again.

As long as the closed source drivers for a divice work and have an open API it should be possible to continue developing new versions of meego to support that device for as long as the hardware makes it worth the effort upgrading.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Wow, so many comments in here and I don't even know where to begin. Yes, they're moving forward too fast, but then again, so is everyone else right now. And the pace of growth and development is only speeding up. Does that suck for us guys who like to take it at a slightly slower pace? Yeah. Can we do things about it? Well, MeeGo will go a long ways towards satisfying the needs of both the new user as well as the legacy user as well. Does it suck getting dumped by Nokia after 6 months because some shiny new toy is out? Yes. Do I blame them? Given the current market, no. So if you want someone to blame for the speed at which the market is moving forward, blame the end users. They're the ones that are constantly crying "More, better, newer, shinier!" and the companies are complying. If that attitude goes away, then things will settle into a more manageable product cycle again.

The only problem with that is, I don't think it ever will, and this is something I *DO* blame Nokia for. But not just them, as there are thousands of others all engaged in the same pattern of promoting that same destructive "More, better, newer, shinier" mentality. And yes, I call it destructive. It destroys the environment (lots of E-waste), destroys pocket books, lives, companies, etc. It's good in the fact that we're getting technology to a level where it needs to be. But we're leaving a lot of carnage and collateral damage along the way. Far more than we should.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Some recent, relevant commentary by Stskeeps here:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=255

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Asking the original question with the information we have now:

The MeeGo project makes a new release every 6 months. Each release is supported with full maintenance for a year and then for emergency fixes for a second year.

http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Engine...lease_Timeline

The MeeGo API will be maintained across releases, following usual practices of deprecation of APIs notifying the changes to developers well in advance.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Every owner and even prosective owner wants to know just how far Nokia will allow the OS to be supported and updated but the REAL truth is as everyone should now know that Nokia are in this for money and to hell with customer satisfaction and the proof is very readable if you look at the situation spanning from the N770 right through the range to the N900 and you will see Nokia drops support fully within time and THAT is just not fair.

The reason is very simple to work out and if you realise what i am trying to tell you here you will probably lose all faith in Nokia !.

IF they continue to support any particular device to the point it does it all from applications to phone useabilty, and Nokia very know what is needed to satisfy 99% of customers needs and wants, then it would make a slump in sales simply because of the limits a mobile device is capable of and to reach that capability would mean far less need for a newer device.

Changes come with component architecture improvement making components faster and more reliable/capable, this in turn leads to new and better drivers and this is phone evolution.

What Nokia do is simple... they keep certain VITAL components closed source to stop developers making progress ahead of Nokia's progression money making machine and THAT means they want FULL control and get it by simply holding deliberatly components closed source like for example the GPRS and USB technology among many other components.

SO the BIG question is this, will we get satisfaction from Meego ?.

Look at the history of battles that go on to get components open sourced and you will see why it is no way likely that Nokia will make everything open source.

I have asked this community to go further with Nokia on many occasions but they always give reasons why it is either not possible or they simply give excuses and techical reasons so end result is slow movement.

Look at every company and deide for yourself who gives good support, for how long and the capabilities of their devices in terms of user needs etc and you will soon find Nokia to be if not right at the bottom of that list damm near to it !.

We have been scammed by Nokia on this N900 and i am not happy about it at all after spending out 500 pound PLUS shipping PLUS import tax !.

SO for me as much a Qgil reams away trying telling everyone Meego is the new future that is OPEN SOURCE ! i will not hold my breath i tell you !.

So the question of this thread "Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)" is simple to answer, if this means NOKIA have control then it will go on and on and on with us being scammed again and again and again.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

So... could you commit to answering this question. Are you stating that each release means a new device, or will you allow 1.1 to be updated to 1.2 on the same machine and state it in terms that other vendors have stated in their upgrade paths?

I hate to use Apple as an example, but they've stood by their update pattern of 3 "major" revisions of their OS (ex. iOS 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0) per device and all iterations therein are considered inclusive (ex. iOS 2.1, 2.2, 2.3.1 are "minor" revisions).

And how are the major revisions handled in MeeGo? Would 1.1 a major revision over 1.0, or would it be a minor revision (a dot increase)?

So to recap, what are the upgrade patterns for the upcoming MeeGo device, will it get support for that next 6 month iteration you've mentioned at least once, would it get a fully supported OS update to the next two iterations (1 year) or what?

Care to clarify what's known/unknown as it applies to each machine in terms of when it comes out and how many updates it will get; or are we looking at a single release, any updates we get for the OS are within those next six months and then looking forward to a new OS release (think: Maemo 5 to MeeGo and it will not be official, only community based support)?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Very very good post gerbick please keep at it !!!.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

I think Quim will be unable to answer the question any further than he did.

Meego will not by itself prevent users from upgrading their devices to their hearts content. Hardware vendors, however, MAY/WILL. Primarily through the same way the n900 is hobbled: closed device drivers.

Since the Meego API should largely remain the same, there shouldn't in theory be any reason that a driver, closed source or not, would be tied to any specific version of Meego. In theory.

That means if you can get the binary for the driver, you can use it to install the latest and greatest Meego. Whether you'll get all the possible features will depend on the feature and the driver.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Please don't do this to yet another thread. I really don't see any reason to get offensive so please calm down. Also please read the text behind the link that qgil provided. If there's something in there that you don't understand or agree with please ask politely and you will be answered politely and this won't turn into a another flame war and abusing thread (that people with knowledge and expertise tend to stay away from).

FYI: MeeGo is not a Nokia project, it's a Linux Foundation project. Also it's not aimed to some specific device, it's a mobile OS for a wide range of devices.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Well... I can see that as being the ultimate truth; however after going from the "most open" device that is less than (according to STSkeeps) 50% open and no upgrade path despite being real open... I'd rather err on the side of caution and ask as opposed to assume. I don't mind being wrong; however in this case, I'm asking to see what's planned.

One would hope. And by that... I mean I truly hope you are right.

And that's where my question skirts the obvious and rather would know what are the planned upgrade path per released device as opposed to worrying about the drivers - been there, done that and honestly a lot of them can be circumvented and/or repurposed for use - like qwerty12 had done with his last app.

Asking about the drivers will probably result in a non-answer, so let's ask about what is being touted the most - the openness of the platform and the direction(s) it could mean for each released device in terms of a MeeGo product.

I for one don't see a real problem with 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and so forth to be loaded onto a device ad inifinitum - thus bringing us closer to a portable and updateable computer - but in this case, nobody knows for sure what Nokia has in store and what they think of their Linux Foundation connection. I'm running Ubuntu 10.04 on a machine that once ran Slackware 4.0.

That's an upgrade path I cannot argue against. Having that kind of flexibility on my MeeGo device would require Nokia to think in those same terms.

Instead of "hoping", I'm asking.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Yes it is a Linux project but the problem is Nokia will control the foundation merely by the fact of what they will alow to be open and not, that was my point and directed at Nokia not Qgil but he is a Nokian so i guess he falls in that bracket but not directly obvioulsy as he is only a small cog.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Well, no. They can't control the source or foundation, but they can control how it appears on their own products. My fear is that they will repeat their history, Intel might lose interest and, in the end, MeeGo dies on the vine before it even gets a fair chance to show itself off. I really hope Nokia improves and learned from their past mistakes, but I'm still quite cynical about those chances.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

No, they will not.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

Ok, that makes perfect sense for the netbook variant. When a new release arrives you just upgrade your computer (just as one does with distributions like Fedora or Ubuntu that have similar release cycles, BAU).

Will the same be possible Nokia MeeGo handheld devices? Ie, will someone buying the MeeGo-Harmattan device this fall be able to upgrade to the spring 2011, fall 2011 and so on releases as they come along? It's not the end of the world if that means going to "vanilla" MeeGo and losing the Nokia differentiation.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

I'm hoping we all being a bit paranoid and a bit cynical (which is understandable).

As far as I understand there will be an "official" Meego release every 6 months starting from October (e.g. Meego 1.1). In between official releases anyone can download, compile and package their own "developer" or "unstable" release - this release will not be official.

Something similar like a Linux kernel release, or Xorg and gnome platform for example.

I imagine that Nokia will time new hardware releases to coincide with official Meego releases - something like Debian, Ubuntu & gnome.

If you are technically-minded you keep a rolling-release cutting-edge version running on your device.
Otherwise you would wait for an official release then run it on your device.

Each release build on the previous while keeping compatibility.

The problem will be the closed-source drivers. If at some point a change in Meego is made (e.g. a new version of the kernel) which renders the closed-source driver incompatible.

(ATI deeming cards legacy and not supporting them in later versions of their closed-driver)


But as this is Nokia I would not expect too much common-sense.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

+1. This sums up everything I want to know.
qgil?

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

@johnel

The drivers would need to be compiled with any new kernel release. This will hopefully be achieved with the autobuilder for those closed components. Nokia have the source for the closed blobs and have set up a system to continuously build the closed blobs and make them available for us to use.

When compilation breaks, hopefully these drivers can be fixed. The biggest problem will be API incompatible with new kernel versions and the closed components.

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

What qgil said has nothing to do with this. Product support is one thing and MeeGo as a standalone project is another. He specifically didn’t speak about upgrades, but API compatibility. IIUC It’s pretty much the same situation as Android, Google won’t ship you a 2.2 image for a HTC Hero - that would have been HTC’s job, but then again Motorola did that for the Droid. MeeGo as such won’t (and can’t) guarantee what the future plans of the vendor will be (unless upgradeability actually becomes part of the MeeGo compliance program, which is unlikely).

EDIT: And an important note about Apple. They are working by the rule of precedent - not to dismiss the track record, but those weren’t guaranteed upgrades, you assume 2 major upgrades because that was the practice during the last release, not because it has been announced previously (i.e. they announce on OS release what PREVIOUS devices will get it, not what FUTURE upgrades this device will get).

Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 

There you go it is still all about uncertainty and if's, why oh why can Nokia not do something right for us !?.