Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

On the N900, I love both. Even thought the Ovi Store on the N900 is nothing more that a mobile webpage, it is only a matter of time until Nokia transform it in in a real application. And even thought App Manager lacks major aspects like, Pictures, Reviews, Short by options etc is a great App Manager utility.

First of all having two different "doors" of software is simple annoying for everyone and confusing to the end/simple user.
And I agree N900/Maemo 5 was clearly aiming for geeks but with MeeGo going commercial, having two different "Applications Stores" in one device is simple WRONG.

I believe that Ovi Store and App Manager should be merge in MeeGo.

Nokia can simply add all Application Manager functions, like Application Catalogs/repositories, Updates and Uninstalls in Ovi Store. Then App Manager content can benefit from Ovi Store's abilities of Description, Pictures, Rating System, Reviews, Recommendations, the ability to filter apps by most popular, top free, top paid, most recent etc.

I really hope to see this happening on the upcoming Nokia Meego devices. What do you thing?

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

Sadly doing this would mean 3rd party software, such as maemo.org Extras, would have no channel (as there is much stricker rules of submission under Ovi brand) and there then would be two application managers instead.

I think the submission system itself should be changed fundamentally, which would allow all available apps to be installable under Ovi brand. Of course it should be allowed to have any repository installed still, but the main source for apps should be Ovi Store for simplicity and marketing etc reasons.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

app manager just should do both. maybe the app manager has an extra selection when you press 'download' and that is that you then can select 'ovi' or 'extras'
i dont see the relation between an app manager and ovi. Its not that the app manager IS ovi, it can do ovi..

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

please don't. I do not trust ovi store. Take 3 apps, pay for 4 and shut up :)

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

There is absolutely NO REASON of having two Application Managers. Is confusing, is annoying, is unprofessional, is just STUPID.

And since Nokia is pushing Ovi Services like no tomorrow with Ovi Store being in the center of their strategy, if there is a possibility of merger, is very easy to figure out what stays and what is going...

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I smell dependency hell with using rpm and multiple repositories...

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I think be careful what you wish for.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

Not quite sure I understand your objection here.. why is it bad? Surely those who are purely end users will use Ovi by default, whilst the more geeky amoungst us will use app manager and repos? Maybe app manager could have 2 sections for Ovi and Other but any other integration would be detrimntal I feel..

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I definitely do not want to turn this on a VS thread.
And please do not get me wrong, I do not mean that App Manager needs to go. I am talking about a merger of both Ovi Store and App Manager.

An Ovi Store, with the ability to add extra repositories, Update and Uninstall software is the perfect example of an App manager for me.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

It is hard to merge fire and water :) The Ovi store folks still have not made up their mind about how to deal with open source projects. maemo.org apps outnumber Ovi apps by at least 10:1, so Ovi folks might fear they will be swamped, and that maemo.org apps might endanger the ones in Ovi. On the other hand, maemo.org IS the de-facto source for apps for the N900, it's Ovi that suffers from software anemia.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I find it terrible. An end user should not have to look in two different places for apps. Doesn't make sense at all. You should be able to go to one place and find all available apps for your device. It is strange things like this from Nokia and other things which do not make their devices as accessible as they should be that has led to their allowing Apple to take the upperhand.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

As I said to my first post, Nokia can include the ability to add extra repositories to the Ovi Store, exactly the same way the current Application Manager handles Maemo-Extras, Maemo-Testing and Maemo-Dev repositories. Nothing will change, except everything will now be hosted under one roof. The Ovi Store.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

They plugged the "hole" where ovi stuff was installable with apt-get... So they're moving in the opposite direction...

Having only ovi store would be too draconian. We'd end up in the same place as symbian, where a certain popular free software had to organize a donation drive so they could afford to put it in ovi store too for free...

And hey, even on other phones nokia has atleast two-three software stores linked/installed anyway ;)

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

First of all, I don't think it is for any user. It's not annoying, and it's not confusing. Quite on the contrary, mixing the two into one would be a source of confusion, as the applications offered have different standards, different licenses etc.

But we're really talking about two things here:

One is Ovi Stor vs. the Maemo Extras repository as distribution channels.

The other is the Application Manager vs. the Ovi Store shortcut as two "doors" to distribution channels on the device.

(Things are even more complicated because the application manager isn't only the "door" to Maemo Extras, but also to official Nokia repositories.)

It might be useful to have an optional (!!) GUI that shows all available sources to the end user, and maybe in a better way than the Application Manager does; including screenshots, descriptions not hidden in the 2nd tab under "details", ratings, # of downloads, comments and so on. IIRC, such an application is being designed for the Extras repo and could be extended to include Ovi Store. (It would still be cool if it would show where the application comes from, then... to avoid confusion.)

What must not happen is one unified "app store"-like distribution channel (like Ovi Store takes over Extras or vice versa). It's good and healthy to have more than one channel. If well managed, there could even be a third one. (I remember a while ago there was the idea to set up a repo that's not financially supported by Nokia, so that it would be able to distribute applications that are not perfectly safe to distribute from a legal POV.)

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

+1
So well said and so true.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

It must never ever happen that one "place" controls what you may install on your device and what not. We know this concept and it failed miserably.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

The Apple 'solution' to this is to simply NOT have the other channel and applications. Ask yourself again, why would Ovi (or Ovi publishers) *voluntarily* want maemo.org apps there, and why would maemo.org app developers want to *voluntarily* take part in Ovi ?

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I think it is dangerous to mix free (with the linux meaning) with proprietary. I feel that you cannot go iphone and linux together. Either you depend on the community to develop free software or you decide to contorol everything and charge for it. The users who expect openness generally tend to punish practices that threaten this openness. I do agree that the ovi store could be a category in the app manager, and I would like if free apps were clearly distinguished in the app manager. I hate when I install something only to find it is a trial version. (I will never, NEVER use documents to go because of that.) On the other hand, maybe the ovi store should stay where it is so that users who don't mind openness stay there, driving sales for Nokia and enable us to have a device like this. (I would hate to live in a world of iphones)
________
blonde girl Cam

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

What is so TERRIBLE about it??

Call me dim but I'm really not seeing why this is an issue at all. In pc world there have always been mutiple different places to download "apps" - it's only in unjailbroken I-world (and parts of symbian world) that there's only been one tightly controlled place. IMHO that is not a model for an open source system to follow. Rather than expecting meamo/meego/n900 to follow a closed phone model we should be happy that's it's following a more open model.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I don't understand this mentality that anything done the Apple way is automatically the wrong way. An example is the capacitive screen issue. Every maemo fan seems to absolutely hate it despite the fact this is what the general public prefers. However, if Nokia had never ever used resistive screens and Apple always used resistive I bet alot of money that half of the people screaming that they hate capacitive screens would be banging on about how much they love it.

It is annoying because I go into the applications manager in my phone. I look through what is there. I then have to go on my PC and look what there is elsewhere. That is an unnecessary extra step. Open or closed it is irrelevant. What is relevant is convenience for the end user. I guess this boils down again to the point about this device not being for the average consumer who wants things accessible?

By the way I am not suggesting the items in the app manager should be on the Ovi website. I want all the apps in Ovi to simply be in the application manager so I don't have to waste my time going to Ovi.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I still do not understand why the discussion goes on and on talking about the good and the bads of both Ovi Store and App Manager and how bad or good is going to be if one of them goes away.

Again the subject is not that. I am not talking about discontinue one of them and stick with the other. I am talking about a Complete MERGE. Call it App Manager, call it Ovi Store call it MeeGo Store, MeeGo App Manager, I DO NOT CARE.

The point is to have ALL FUNCTIONS from both Ovi Store and App Manager under ONE ROOF. One simple, extremely well organized App manager that is able to handle downloads, uninstalls and software updates. All under one icon.

There is absolutely no reason of having two application managers in one device. Not a single logical reason. NONE

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

i think what your looking for is called an iphone. i think choice is awesome.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I think it would be interesting if Ovi just sells (digital) licenses to unlock premium apps and all the apps are distributed through app manager.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

The problem is the app manager basically runs of repositories and ALL the apps are FREE. Thus merging them is probably not a good idea.

However making it LOOK like they are merged would probably be better, so enhancing the app manager so that normal apps install no problem - BUT the paid apps are pulled from the Nokia OVI store and also shown there.

However this also presents problems, because I think the app manager is open source and as such could be easily circumvented to install apps free, this may also be the same with having each application have a license key.

It's not as easy as you make it sound - there are many things to be considered before Nokia proceeds.

For the time being it works fine - so stop complaining and let the Nokia developers do their work, stop pestering them, software development takes time. THis is the umpteenth thread from noobs saying I wish Nokia did this or that - Nokia will make this N900 better than the N97, it's just going to take time. Just enjoy it - within 10 days of asking for a feature some developer will start making creating it! I've had my N95 8GB for 2 years+ and I've not seen an app that can disable the red LED while recording, last week someone requested this and this week I'm using using it, the N900 can do things all other phones can only dream of! (although I miss MMS, video calling and a proper GPS app - but there is no way on this earth Nokia will not implement those features, it's all about time)

There is a fine line between having the N900 user friendly for the average joe with an IQ of 10 can use, and the developers who use it.

Stop complaining and see how much better the N900 is than ANY other phone!

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I personally would be already happy to even see a properly working OVI Store first. :rolleyes:

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

You must take into account the interests of ALL stakeholders, not just your own. Commercial app developers (and thus Ovi itself) will NOT be happy if they get competition from Free apps. You might not care, but they do. At the same time Free app developers need Ovi like a fish needs a bicycle - you expect people to pay 50E per year, give up donations and accept restrictive licenses and liability just to be able to do what they are doing now ? So, what's your plan to overcome this fire/water divide ?

EDIT: spelling

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I like the simplicity of the App Manager - the idea of merging it into an OVI-based program makes me shudder (blech!).

I think the App Manager is perfectly fine the way it is.

However, what could be done is to create a new application that can merge the two "systems" together. You would only need to use a single application to view OVI and "free" content - that's fine. Nokia can market that anyway they like.

But leave the existing App Manager well alone - this is a fundemental building block.

Ubuntu seems to do well with two installer apps. There is an application on the main menu that allows you to install softrware.
The other installer is "synaptic" and this is buried in the "Administration" menu.

You can have one "user-visible" application manager that encompasses everything the other installer can be "hidden" away further in the ui.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I agree. Having two separate channels in not bad. OVI Store for commercial apps (and for those who cannot be bothered to find out what options are available) and maemo.org for community apps (and for those who actually know what "community" means).

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I think you are out of subject... Please read the previous postings before you reply. Plus I just hate when people compare anything and everything to icrap eemmmm sorry iPhone... :mad:

Yea right?!! lool

You are right but again out of subject.

Here we go again. Nothing has to chance. Current repositories will stay as it is everything will stay as it is. So no license issues or hosting fees will be a problem. Second I do not get your point of competition? What is the problem if multiple apps free and not are available in the same place? This is the beauty of the App Stores. The users are smart enough to decide if a free app is great or not and if a paid app is worth the money. If you are a developer and you offer a paid App, Nokia will get its cut. If your app is free then you can add it either from Ovi's channel or Maemo's Extras repository.

I love App manager too but at its current stage lacks even basic functions. I do not want to deeply going into it right now I will only state that three updates after the originalN900 firmware and the App Manager doesn't even have the option to list new apps, or top downloads. Currently the only way to find out whats new for Maemo 5 is to visit http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ and then go download it from your phone. I am sure you agree is not that practical...

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

You're still thinking with a user head :) If you're a developer and you offer a paid app, you do NOT want a Free app with an identical purpose listed at the same place. In your scenario (if Extras keeps it's repository) it's the commercial vendors who draw the short straw - they have to pay through the nose and deal with the wreckage Ovi is, just to be listed next to an app offered for free and pray that it's bad enough so that users come back and buy their app. And as for Nokia (the Ovi division, to be more precise), it's the same problem. They are not getting any money if you DO choose the Free alternative. That's why Apple simply says 'you can be free to the users but not to US', and that's why there is so few Free apps there (compared to commercial ones).

And that is exactly why I created Appwatch.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

Yes, but this is happening already. Free apps and paid apps are already listed next to each other. I am not seeing this from the user perspective. I am completely aware of the terms on publishing on Ovi and the 50 euros fee even for free apps etc and again I do not see the problem. If you are a developer and you have two options to publish your freeware, one paid and one free you just choose the free repository and thats it.

Kudos on that!! I saw that the other day. But no matter how great your app is I believe all its functionalities should be available in App Manager right out of the box.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

Which ones would these be ? The only two paid apps that appeared as a non-Nokia special deal are the ones from a single (slightly controversial) one-man-show publisher. Compared to that, there is a sea of hundreds (thousands, if you count those in -devel) free applications.

The problem is not choice, but no matter what you choose, somebody loses (which, in turn means the users lose). If there is a free repo, the commercial vendors loose (i.e. they will rather go and develop for a platform where they don't have this 'unfair' competition). If there isn't a free repo, the Free app developers lose.

That's the problem why you cannot merge them in a general way. Let me remind you of Maemo Select. That was supposed to be this united source of best free and non-free applications. It turned out as an epic fail as NOBODY liked it. Not the commercial developers, not the OSS developers, not Nokia, and thus, not surprisingly, the users either. Fire and water.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I don't think the App Managaer lacks any basic features.

It's small, focussed and does the job of installing, updating and removing of software perfectly well.

That's the beauty of using the debian package system. Believe me I've used many different Linux distributions and the debian packaging system seems to break the least (from personal experience).

It would be a much better idea to create a new app manager from scratch.

It would show a "unified" list of applications from various sources. You can put a nice html-type frontend on it, native ability to process payments, it could show a list apps with thumbnails and have all the "top ten" lists you want and fully integrated into the OVI store.

It makes more sense.

I bought the n900 because I want the freedom to choose. I don't want my choice of applications dictated to me.

This is the best way forward:
(1) A nice new shiney app installer for end-users
(2) The current app manager for geeky people like me.

The new shiney app installer can be promoted and installed in a "high profile" location - e.g. on the desktop or as the first app in the application list.

The current app must be an option - it does the job very well.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

All linux package managers are like that, it's just the way it is.

I'm wiling to stick with this - for the time being it's fine, it just about does the job, I'd prefer Nokia spending time on making the phone complete like adding full GPS sat-nav, mms and video calling first.

The app manager is low priority at the moment - but very soon it will be top priority, Nokia wants developers making apps for the phone and for that they need a payment process, and they also want to show users there are lots of other apps out there aswell, the way I see it WILL be merged - but paid apps will more likely be stuff like GPS software and games.

We will just have to wait and see.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

In what way is this different from Maemo Select ? It is what you describe *to the letter*, including the desktop icon.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I prefer things how they are!

Ovi store for 'making money' apps

Application Manager for 'open, free, community created' apps

Keep up the good work developers ... dont let that ovi store overtake the number of apps available in app manager.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

For starters the ovi apps sould be added to the app manager as the app manager is used to install the ovi apps. but i actualy quite like the fact the comuntity have there own non comercial system that no business can get there dirty lil grubby hands on. plus it gives us solo developers a place to test our apps and get comunity feed back.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

Interesting stats about % of free apps available per platform:

http://androidandme.com/2010/02/news...-applications/

http://androidandme.com/wp-content/u...aid_540big.jpg

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

I always thought it was the other way around. Ovi restrictions are all about the company creating the app, and are not that arduous for any company serious about software development for end users (IIRC, the arguments were about liability insurance and tax registration).

Extras concentrates on software quality. There are reportedly many things in Ovi that would not get into Extras due to lack of optification, non-clean uninstalls etc.

Re: Ovi Store and App Manager must be merge
 

Just for the sake of completeness, from Appwatch data: