Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit?
 

There's been so much noise about Harmattan and MeeGo, but I find it interesting that I haven't seen any comments on the fact that Nokia will probably be dumping the Mozilla-based browser engine to go instead with WebKit, the browser engine found in their competition, Android and iPhone OS.

Why do I say this? Nokia has clearly stated that they will be supporting the Nokia WRT (Web RunTime) engine based on WebKit in Harmattan forward. Why would they have two big bulky browser engines on a limited-resources device?

So now we know why Firefox is being ported to the N900 so aggressively when the N900's Mozilla-based browser is currently one of the best in the industry.

In Harmattan, Firefox, an optional, third-party browser, will the Mozilla-based browser. Just like almost every other platform (except maybe Ubuntu? Can you get Ubuntu on anything out-of-the-box?).

Is there anyone else a bit sad about this?

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I've always preferred Konqueror, so not me. Unfortunately KHTML is getting so dated I'm forced to use Firefox on the desktop, but more people working on WebKit can't hurt at least.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I think it's a good point, but also consider WRT is also planned (or at least, was planned) for the N900, where both webkit and microb will coexist from PR1.2 onwards... (unless they plan to ship Qt without Webkit, which I doubt).

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Not been a linux/maemo user for long but why would they get rid of the browser we have now? Its fast, it loads full web pages well and has a nice easy UI to it, i wudnt give up microb for any other browser at the moment. Im not sad by this news i just hope they do it correctly, i porsonaly prefer opera (gecko is it?) over webkit.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

It is better to have MeeGo WebKit browser and Firefox Mozilla on future MeeGo devices than having two very similar Mozilla-based browsers. Keep in mind that Firefox doesn't need much to become as good as MicroB and it has a great potential to even surpass it by the time MeeGo+WebKit will be here.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

In the same lines of other topics around MeeGo, I would wait for facts before feeling sad (or happy for that matter).

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

No no no no.

Webkit might have faster javascript execution or so, but if you look at MicroB and compare it to S60 Browser, iPhone Safari or Android Browser, there is no doubt which is superior.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I say, let Mozilla do their bit and let Nokia concentrate on one browser...

AFAIK, the webkit will also be used as a development strategy (much like python, qt) correct? I think the decision went for keeping a standard across all the platforms because of Qt.

As long as I have more options for browser for me it is okay...

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Hmm. I could have sworn someone from Nokia* stated some time ago that in Harmattan, the browser would continue to be Mozilla-based, while WRT would use WebKit. I believe that was pre-MeeGo, but I would imagine it will hold true for Harmattan at least.

* My brain is telling me it was qgil responding to a question posted by YoDude, but my brain isn't to be trusted.

EDIT: Yep, my brain was completely wrong. go1dfish responded to Bundyo with second-hand information.

(qgil launched the thread, and there's a "yo" in "Bundyo". Yeah, stupid brain.)

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Mozilla is using Gecko. Operas layout engine is called Presto.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Thanx for the info.:D

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Ok, the vibe I'm getting (beyond the usual "Stop speculating; wait for official announcements") is that there will be a nice overlap period where we'll have the two major open source browser engines living side-by-side on Maemo/MeeGo devices, as crazy as that sounds. Meego, the OS with two browser engines built-in!

As warm and fuzzy as that is, I can't see that as being sustainable indefinitely. Just like Qt and GTK, In the long term, Nokia's going to have to choose an "official" browser platform. Since Qt and WRT have both made that decision already, and they chose Webkit, I just don't see Mozilla winning here.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

+ That Other Nokia Platform (tm) allready uses Webkit.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I wouldn't be surprised if Nokia drops Gecko in favor of Webkit. The fact that Gecko is always loaded in memory in Maemo <= 5 so the browser starts faster is not the most desirable situation in a limited resource environment as a mobile phone. Also, Gecko has it's own toolkit so it doesn't fit with the rest of the desktop. If you want Gecko, installing Fennec should do the job.

ITOH I'm willing what is Nokia going to do for the Qt-ified Modest as it needs an HTML widget with DOM capabilities accesible through his API and AFAIK Qt Webkit lacks this support.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I personally prefer Gecko. I also don't expect Gecko to be dumped in favor of WebKit, but of course everyone can be proved wrong.

Opera is out of question. Its also buggy as hell. Still. :D

Can we have a question mark on the end of the topic? There's no WebKit default browser in MeeGo yet AFAIHS.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Nightly Fennec is already faster than microb in some cases if you don't mind initial start time and it is being updated frequently unlike all Nokia software.
For example microb fails to render wow armory properly and despite bugzilla says it is fixed in upcoming firmware for over 2 patches now I can't just grab nightly and use it if I choose to do so.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Oh I hope you aren't proven wrong.

There's no MeeGo yet AFAIHS. ;)

But I agree, a question mark would be better. If I could change it I would. And I tried. Really! I did!

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I think one of the reasons Nokia stayed with Gecko was because of XUL?

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Well, my netbook says MeeGo on boot and I didn't put any specific boot screen there :P

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Bundyo: oh come on, you grabbed that short-lived version of Moblin that was superficially branded as MeeGo. Can anyone else get that version?

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

There's probably more experience with Webkit, and given that its already integrated with Qt, it makes sense to go that route. Plus, Symbian and S40 both use Webkit-based browsers, and so this makes for easier porting of WRT and other tech between them.

Hopefully, Nokia will unifiy the engine, controls, and UI across these platforms. This move would make a lot of sense for them.

For Mozilla, it would be a good play as well, as they'd get to play a good bit more with making the browser-as-a-platform, and work out the usability of Weave on OSS and closed systems.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

ARJWright: So you think it would actually be better for Mozilla if the Gecko-based browser in Maemo/MeeGo was replaced with a Webkit one? That's an interesting view.

I can see what you mean, though. By offering the Firefox-branded browser to MeeGo as a separate product, Mozilla can have much more control over the experience.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Gecko, hello Webkit?
 

Even though it turned out to be false, you did, over a year ago.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

you haven't tried webkit with n800. It was unbelieveable at the time the first patches appeared to itt. It was blazing fast compared to OS2008 microb....

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

daperl: good memory! And good catch!

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

As long as it's not remotely close to the Symbian browser and like the MicroB I don't care if they even use Internet Explorer's engine! :)

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

We've had two for quite some time now: gecko for the browser (OK, and maps in Fremantle) and gtkhtml for everything else (email, rss etc). Seems to me like webkit will take the place of the latter as a somewhat lightweight engine embeddable in whatever app needs it.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

If using webkit to render pages improves performance on the same level that Chrome/Safari have demonstrated over Firefox, I'm all for seeing that checkerboard/grid pattern less.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Gecko, hello Webkit?
 

AFAIK WebKit support is built-in Qt, so considering Harmattan is Qt based, they have no choice of not supporting it. :rolleyes:

But that does not necessary mean, that the browser will be WebKit based. Let me explain a bit Maemo browser architecture.

MicroB is not N900 web browser.

N900 web browser is called... Browser.
It's a high level component providing the UI for the web browsing. The rest is provided by EAL - Engine Abstraction Layer - which is remote-controlled by browser with D-BUS calls. EAL is a component (a daemon in Maemo 5) that provides the web browsing engine. The default EAL provided in N900 is Mozilla Gecko based and is called MicroB.

This architecture allows for easy engine replacement - either by Nokia, the OEM or the user.

I don't know whether that architecture will be used in MeeGo, but I hope so. This will allow the freedom of choice - not leaving you with "the one" chosen by the manufacturer.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I always (in general, on different computers) use lots of different web browsers. On my N800 I preferred Opera. On the desktop I use several at the same time.

However, on all these devices, I've found that it's best to have a gecko/mozilla-based browser readily available, because at some point it's the only browser that may work properly at certain sites, often important ones. Sometimes it's a silly as getting through the login-page of networks that require you to enter a user and code before you can access it.

So go webkit, that's fine, but please someone leave us with a backup mozilla/gecko-based browser, just in case..

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Pretty much. With Mozilla having to play the role of owning the product that's not installed by default, they would have to show forth a product that's head and shoulders in UI and UX better than the default browser. This speaks well for developers and users, and keeps Mozilla on the side of "freedom of choice is good" which is in many ways how they approached the desktop.

MeeGo having a base platform that's using a different engine offers a chance to do enhancements to the browser that might not be directed by the browser engine. And - hopefully - a browser that doesn't turn stagnant because its OEM/ODM controlled.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I think Mozilla's significance is more important than it's ever been. IE has been handed its hat on the desktop by a one-two Gecko-Webkit punch, but now all eyes are on handhelds. Webkit branches sharply at the UI level, and thus, so do plenty of features. We're the big winners here so far, and as long Nokia continues to use Mozilla for the flagship browser we'll stay that way. It's a very good, yet bizarre twist of fate with all things considered. Either that, or Nokia is alot smarter than most of us give them credit for.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

However, while Nokia uses a Gecko-engined browser, they aren't using one that seems to use the better user-facing aspect of it - extensions (edit: extensions which are cross-device and platform compatible). If that piece of things were more in sync with Mozilla's Firefox, then I could agree that Nokia is being smarter. At this point, I'm not sure so much that its an issue of being smarter - especially with they have Webkit already in-house and on their other, larger platforms.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Smart, as in they're simultaneously championing both technologies. Maybe smart's not the exact word I was looking for. But I'm a big OSS person, so watching Nokia step into Google's shoes to foster good, clean competition is a good thing. Maybe that's the word I was looking for: Good. As in good vs. evil. Nothin' like a little drama on a Monday morning!

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

I wish they were using something fast and lightweight for rendering the Conversations window. As soon as you start tweaking the CSS of the page (for instance, to make speech bubbles), the rendering grinds to a crawl.

The smart guys over in the Customize N900 Conversations thread say that it is being rendered with a Gecko engine. Makes me wonder about the pervasiveness of the Gecko engine throughout the UI...

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

On the technical side, they probably had to go a route like this because all rows in the standard GTK list widgets have to be the same height. And you nailed it: It's a speed thing. These are inexcusable, but known weaknesses of GTK. But I'm still not sure using the Gecko engine was necessary. Currently, I'm recreating some of the mediaplayer functionalty, and I'm using JSON config files to expose Pango markup that I then use in a kind of variable argument printf statement. Here's a clip:

I'm sure I could recreate the Conversations UI using a similar technique combined with GtkTables instead of GtkTreeViews. I also combine those JSON config files with GtkBuilder files. This leaves plenty of room for customization and fast scrolling. And no HTML/CSS overkill.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

From looking at the "rtcom-messaging-ui" package dependencies, they seem to use browser-neteal (aka the rendering engine abstraction layer).
So theoretically you could even plug Webkit or Opera in ;)

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

Whoa, I just took a long look over at the conversations thread. It must be Gecko. Well, welcome to the WRT preview. I don't think this is a good direction. If you think people are complaining about speed and battery consumption now... Until Javascript is in its 2nd or 3rd generation of multi-threading support, I will probably be steering clear. Currently, it's the wrong tool for the job. I'm a little concerned. The latency of dbus asynchronous communication is plenty for me, thanks. Don't we all have enough bad experiences with crappy Javascript and websites? If WRT is suppose to be the answer for opening up the platform to gather more developers, are these the types of developers we want for front facing apps? I say no. And f*ck no. I was all ready for Qt and hardcore C++ programmers.

Does Nokia have it backwards? The OS is suppose to be easy and joyful to use. I'm going to paraphrase Einstein: Make API's and programming languages as easy as possible, but no easier. Isn't WebOS the only example we need of what not to do? It's a beautiful OS that seems to be choking on Javascript. Oh, the virus of the browser. Me frightened. Rant over.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Mozilla, hello Webkit!
 

It would be great if you could recreate conversations with speech bubbles using the techniques that improve performance / scrolling while providing room for customization.

Re: Meego: Goodbye Gecko, hello Webkit?
 

Uhm, today they have gtkhtml (doing e.g. the html email rendering) and microb. Why shouldn't they have webkit and microb in the future?