The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Hello all,

There has been a lot of discussion along the lines of the N800 being "an internet tablet, repeat an internet tablet", and that is where the design is focused. However, for most professionals to adopt the N800, it is crucial that they be able to sync their contacts, calendars, and possibly other data.

Background: I am a computer professional who has owned about 9 PDAs over the past 16 or so years. I long ago realized that a single converged device is a poor solution - I need to carry a phone and an "information device". I need to be able to look up things on my information device while speaking into my phone, and connecting ear buds or using the speaker phone do not suffice. I need to be able to glance at my calendar, access addresses and other info, such as rarely used passwords, IP addresses, etc., and be able to edit them. Inputting info into a phone is a horrible joke - I need something like Palm's graffiti or a good qwerty input pad. I have established that 2 devices are needed. However, carrying a 3rd larger device is too inconvenient. My phone, keys and coins in my left pants pocket, and a full-screen PDA in my right pants pocket make a workable arrangement.

Therefore, the N800 _must_ be able to replace my PDA. In order to do that, it needs a good (doesn't even have to be great) PIM suite that syncs with my computer. I have held onto my aging Sony Clie NX70 for about 4 years because I haven't found anything better. It syncs perfectly with my Mac, has a bigger screen than a treo, a keyboard, a camera, and a long battery life. Pocket PC devices abound, but require 1 to 3 steps more to do almost operation than is required under Palm OS.

The N800 is _Wonderful_ and superior to all of the PDAs out there in almost every way. But it desperately needs a good PIM suite. The good folks at Nokia can't afford to ignore this. (Ari ? I hope you're listening)

Aloha,
-Jeff Mings

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Why do you expect Nokia to develop the PIM suite you need? Everybody can.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

That is a fallacy: Not everybody can do this. So it is perfectly justified for the OP to ask for it.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I dont know... I dont expect my hardware vendor to write an PIM for my desktop-PC, either. Nor do I expect Microsoft to include everything into their OS. (Actually, the very fact that they did put a lot of applications into Windows got them into serious trouble, remember?)

If the 770/N800 were a closed box, running a proprietary OS with no SDK available, then I'd ask the vendor to include features I consider important. But it isn't.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

What else to add to jeffmings post? I'm using my 770 with Winzig for my PIM needs, obviously an integrated solution will be far better, expecially with ical/icontacts sync functions. Imho a good PIM it will be the KA for the platform to blow out everything else

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I agree that the N800 needs a good PIM suite. The current N800 options really aren't usable when compared to Palm or Psion - I haven't used any WinCE based PDAs, but I imagine they integrate well with desktop PIM SW.

However, I wouldn't trust Nokia to come up with such an app on their own. They should be responsible for integrating it, but hopefully they would buy/license the product from someone else! (And hopefully it wouldn't be based on GPE...)

I also like the idea of having a local copy of the information on the device itself rather than depending 100% on the availability of a WiFi network. It's nice to be able to sync the device or to surf the web, but something like an address book should be completely contained in the device. (And it should be a decent address book to begin with, one that let's me define my own database format...)

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

it's a bit early, yet.. less than 24 hrs in dev time, but i'm working on porting kontact.. at least, some of the L&F, and using the underlying code (yay for c++/c marriages) as much as possible. I personally find it to be one of the best PIM/email clients i've ever used.

working on abstracting out the persistence layer enough so any backend could be used (with coding effort of course), but i believe initially, for time sake, i'm going to stick things into sqllite.

kontact is overkill in some areas, so i won't be porting the entire behemoth. but, who knows.

quick screenshots of the UI prototype. (yes, I stole the icons directly from kontact. i should check on that).
Attachment 241

Attachment 242

edit: and, i plan on using the contact API built in to the maemo platform as one of the available contact resources.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I put dejapim and it seems to work ok. There is a fee to synch with outlook which I haven't tried but thinking on it..my SE W810 calendar function works really well with a reminder that works even when the cell is off..so as a professional myself I don't see a need for the N800 to be a PDA

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I agree, but wouldn't it be great if you could synch your cell PIM with the N800? Using the Internet Tablet for extended entries, cleaning up and whatnot and the cell mainly as a viewer.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I wonder if people would pay for a PIM on the 770/N800. I've been meaning to start a PIM project with a back end based on Google Calendar and GMail (for contacts); I just don't have the time, and without a C API for Google Data, it won't be easy. I'd quit my day job if I could make enough money writing a PIM for the 770/N800, but I don't think the market is big enough.

Maybe someday, though...

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I'd pay of the order of £20 for a synching PIM application. Of course it would have to be iSynch comptable but I'd be happy th shell out some cash for it.

As you say though, is the market big enough?

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Seconded, USD though ;). iSync would be the biggest selling point for me.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I agree with Karel and Jeff. For the N800 to experience a real uptake with the community that really matters, the biz community, it will have to provide more biz like applications. Right now for the most part, the N800 is a developer device or for early technology adapters. It has quite a market potential because, as Karel has pointed out, the all in one device is really not very practical. While the concept is laudable, the practical considerations say otherwise.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

My emai from DejaDesktop:

Thank you for your email. Unfortunately, our software is not compatible with the Nokia N800 and we are not planning on adding compatibility for this handheld.



I'm sorry that I could not be of more assistance.



Please feel free to contact us if you have any further questions or concerns.



Thank you --

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Please explain. You put DejaPim on a N770 or an N800? Big difference.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Which says to me that they didn't make anywhere near enough revenue from the 770 to be able to support the 800. Not a surprise, their business case never looked that strong to me.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

OK, I can go with USD :)

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Just found a site with Winzig, Can you say that this runs on the N800 and if so, how do you install it? I am not a Linux guy and this is all a bit new to me. I am sure your help will benefit others here as well.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Had my bosses test the 770. The unit was considered "nice but unuseabel" since it could not sync with Outlook/Exchange. Wether one likes MS or not, the fact remains that they, together with Lotus Notes, have a major share of the Calendar/Contact market. And WinCE PDA's can sync with those two in both directions resonably easy.

So either Nokia delivers an app or get's someone to write an app that can do theses link-ups on a "useable by MBA" level or the Tablet won't make any big inroads. Get's even worse with the new bigger screened WinCE maschines that attract the MBA's and Windows guys because they are VB.NET programmabel.

As far as paying goes: Yes, up to 50€ IF I don't need an external server (that's why DejaPim is out)

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I'm so totally in agreement with the logic presented by the original poster that if I could have stated it so well myself, I would. Excellently put.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

... not to mention that my entry-level 6021 Nokia phone syncs with Outlook just as well as any PDA I've seen, so it's not like they don't know how, either :-)

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Nokia (and most engineering companies these days) develops everything with a global effort. It is likely the guys who wrote the SW for your 6021 aren't even in the same part of the world as those who write for the N800 - and even if they were in the same building, it's a completely different software platform. Even if someone in the company can get a phone to sync to Outlook means nothing for the N800.

Now that I've had my moment of griping, I do hope they include a good PIM and syncing at some point.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

@ $400 a pop and the Nokia name you would expect something like this...

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.en.../02/05_e90.jpg

... or at the very least more than a calculator, clock, notes, PDF reader, and a sketch app.

If it wasn't for the the community developed apps like Maemo Mapper and Canola the thing would be useless to all but the developers who got it @ $99.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of faith in the community and have benefited from collaborative efforts in the past that I was involved with... I mean that's why I'm in.

However, with the number of apps developed for the e90 in house, you would think Nokia could throw a bone or two our way.
I'm sure if someone here developed an app that was "killer" for the N800... It would find its way on to one of Nokia's commercial devices.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

The E90 is a Symbian, not a Linux device. It runs S60 on top of the Symbian O/S, a platform for which a vast number of applications already exists. Also to be taken into account is the (sad?) fact that there is no significant Open Source community for that platform, plus its backwards compatibility can often be measured in months.

In short, there isn't much of a bone to throw from the Symbian division to the Linux dudes. They don't, in fact, even like each others' bones.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I'm in complete agreement with YoDude.
Though way out of my depth, I'm pretty certain that what we all want can be accomplished with offline cached content compliant with WHATWG.org in a browser that supports it: see
http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/02...h-firefox.html
I suppose Opera or Nokia might even be able to sell a subscription to something akin. I thought kiko.com was heading in this direction, but angels pulled the plug.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

It has all those things out of the box. Under utilities.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

So playing Devil's advocate here, if you synch to your PIM to your phone, why do you need to synch to your N800?

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

From Nokia's perspective, they are pushing their latest eseries phones which events of the last few weeks publicly show they see as PDA/phone convergence devices. They have also pushed the internet tablet into the N series. What the OP appears to overlook is the possibility of a convergence of PDA/phone. You don't need a 4+ inch WVGA screen for PIM so it is your web browsing/multimedia device. Why duplicate the PIM on the N800 when you can just tether the N800 to the PIM on the eseries. This is what both Ari Jaaksi and the Enterprise solutions folks at Nokia see as the way to proceed. Whether we like it or not, it should now be clear that Nokia is not going to develop a PIM for the internet tablet.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

That would be very nice, but we (well, "I" obviously, and maybe a few others) still would like a way to access, edit and synch our PIM on the IT, seeing as it has the better screen and (marginally) better text entry. And when I say "our PIM", the implication is that not everybody has or wants to have a Nokia phone, so if that's Nokia's vision, they can blooming well come up with a way to link the IT to any phone's PIM in existence, or they stand to lose a lot of street cred with the Open Source crowd. The sort of vendor tie-in that you imply is not frownlessly looked upon in the Linuxverse.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

What he^ said...

This convergence is a natural IMHO. I accept the fact that I need to carry a large screen data device 50% of the time and a smaller personal communication device (phone) 100% of the time.
The phone could loose all the power robbing "smart" apps that are downright silly to edit on a 2 or even 3 inch, non touch screen. It should provide the data connection though, and the only smarts it needs is managing that connection among devices and providing viewers for the synced apps.

However, the data device must support all phones that are capable of this or the manufacturer at least should have an active interest in doing so.

If not, as I think Karel sort of said... Nokia would be looked upon as steering this open source device toward a vendor specific convergence...

That would be the kind of thinking I would expect out of Redmond; not from the company that sold me on this thing (N800).

I bought it for its potential and because it was Nokia, not an unheard of start-up, or a company that has already tried steering me down many a bumpy road.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I did not mean to imply that Nokia sees this as a way to tie the IT to their phones. What I meant is that they see PIMs as a business application to be implemented on a business oriented PDA/phone. They see the IT as in a different product category complementing the PDA/phone and not duplicating the functionality of it.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Hi, I hesitated a long time before getting myself a N800. The reasons why I hesitated are:
- no PIM
- no business suite (I d prefer a Open Office rather a MS Office)
- no gsm/3G direct connection
- no camera (less important)

So I am a perfect match.

Compare the N800 to a HTC or equivalent PDA phone (with the same screen size such as 9000 or just launched Advantage), they have all in one solution (plus I need 2 chargers when I travel if I have a phone AND the n800 :) )

BUT I CHOSE THE N800 because:

- it s the only one - because of Open Source OS- so far that may evolve to get at least all the sw and applications I mentioned and more.
- I can leave it at home and keep my phone when I don't want to carry it.

My humble - no techie- idea is that online (PIM and Business) applications could be developped. I d pay (lump or monthly) for that if professional level is reached.

Of course that requires full time 3G (and preferably 3.5G or HSDPA) coverage because Wi-Fi is so limited geographically.

By the way, as existing for wifi, no manufacturer has developped a 3G chip integrated to a mobile card? Would be perfect for IT if coupled to BT headset (w/ micro)

Cheers, Seb

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

Sorry. One never knows if it isn't Nokia's CEO posting here. :rolleyes:

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I actually don't carry a phone half the time since I don't need it and dislike the "always reachabel" concept of mobile phones. So the very cheap thing I use stays in the glove compartment. The N770 OTOH I do carry around a lot so I need a PIM there, not on my 1€ T-Mobile Phone.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

With all the PIM software on sourceforge I'm surprised no one has ported any of it over. KDE PIM looks nice and runs on the Sharp Zaurus. http://sourceforge.net/search/?type_...soft&words=PIM

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

I checked today online apps from Google. Seems to be a spreadsheet and text. I had tried the calendar (we use it at the office) but the browser gets confused : boxes and timeframes seem to overlap on the n800 screen. I can still manage it but not perfect.

If the same applies to spreadsheet and word processor, then not the solution.

Seb

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

At the very least you'd need to install a gazillion megabytes' worth of libraries -- provided it can be ported at all. And I'm carefully assuming hildonisation is not going to be easy either.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

What exactly do you do with those Google apps (the precious few that work with the Internet Tablets' browsers, that is) when you find yourself out of internet reach? Can you even run them if there's no internet?

BTW: No, Google Docs and Spreadsheets don't even work with Opera.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

This talk about using/utilizing the PIM on the phone is in stark contradiction to what was at one stage implied by Ari: The phone is just a link to the network. So it can be really simple. (Ref. e.g. the blog he posted last year about that lipstick phone as an ideal phone.) I mean, what's the point of buying a rather expensive gadget like the N800 (expensive compared to "normal" phones), if you _also_ has to buy a **!@ "smartphone" too? Just to get access to something that should have been part of the N800 in the first place?

I've said it before: The ideal phone for me is a simple, small, bluetooth-enabled low-cost phone with long battery life (so black-and-white LCD screen is fine), which can stay in the pocket all the time except if somebody calls me on it. And these kind of phones don't have useful PIM apps. And the "PIM" in mid-range phones like my k700i is rubbish. And in my opinion phones are not the best place for PIMs anyway, it's much better to be able to use and looking up stuff at your N800 in front of you while you hold the phone at the ear (and for the same reason it's not a good idea to use the N800 as a generic phone, so I've never agreed with those reviewers complaining about the fact that it isn't a phone).

Just today I found out that the built-in email application in the N800 won't even start if I'm not networked.. what's the point of having it at all then? I only configured it so I had some way of reading the mail archive off-line when I can't go online (because then I just log in to gmail or the office webmail instead). But it's useless now. There's no _need_ for a built-in email app. if it can't be used off-line. (Is there some setting somewhere that can fix this? I forgot my N800 at home so can't test more today.)

EDIT: Turns out the email app. had more severe problems, I had to reboot the N800 to get the email app working at all. After that it does start without being online, so I'll retract that. However it sure likes to try to go online a lot -- I've got the source now (well if it's the right one), so I'll try to hack it a little.

Re: The N800 _MUST_ have a good PIM to succeed
 

If I may put in my 2c here: I run a small ofc and hence am tied to my phone almost 24/7. After recognizing the limitation of a mid price cell (I use the SE W810i-great cell device btw) I decided I needed some sort of PDA for times out of ofc..the Cingular 8525 (HTC Tytn) appeared to be an awesome device-which it definitely is. So I get it on Cingular's 30 day trial, and use it for a couple of wks..and it is definitely a great tool and useful for my needs..especially for using "real" internet access when away from the ofc. However, I finally realized that for the actual time I needed the extra features of the 8525-it just didn't justify having to carry (or lug) such a "beast" of a device. I much prefer the little W810i and what I need it for 90% of the time in my shirt or pants pocket. So I returned the 8525..bought a N800 and when I need the "extra" feature of using "real" internet..I just get online if I'm in a wireless environment..or tether to my cell if not. The N800 is limited in it's PIM, but I find using my W810i for calendar..remind me of tasks..and contacts is perfectly fine..and since it is with me all the time as opposed to the N800, I don't think I'd use a PIM function on the N800 anyway. Anybody else with similar experience? I think the N800 does what it does well and in my opinion a cellphone-even midrange priced ones-manage contacts and calendar functions in a satisfactory way.