Maemo Morality
 

from mylot.com

I was taking a philosophy class and our teacher asked us these three scenarios.

1: You are standing by the switch near a train track. The train is coming and the brakes are broken. The train is headed on a path where it will run over five people who are tied to the tracks, killing them. If you pull the switch, the train will switch direction and go on a track where it will kill 1 person who is tied to the tracks, but if you don't pull it he will be safe. You have no time to untie anyone. What do you do?

2: You are standing on a bridge over a train track. The train is coming, the brakes are broken, and there are 5 people tied to the tracks. There is a fat man on the bridge. This man is fat enough that if you pushed him, he would stop the train from running over the 5 people, but he would be killed. Do you push him?

3: Same situation as #2, but the fat man is standing on a trapdoor. You are standing by a lever that will open the trapdoor, he will fall onto the tracks, stop the train from running over the five people, and be killed. Do you pull it?

What would you do?

Re: Maemo Morality
 

1. Pull the switch.
2. Push him.
3. Pull it.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

These are classic questions about morality. For some reason we condone solution #1 but condemn solution #2, even if they are very similar (the second solution involves a more active role though). Question #3 is just like question #2.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

I came in thinking I needed to discuss the mysterious powers of Meemo which some might consider evil - and whether using such an awesome system is moral as it makes everyone look so silly :D
As for the scenario - I cant be jumping and saving people with the N900 in my pocket.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

I am not a murderer:

#1 Don't pull it
#2 Don't push him
#3 Don't pull it

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Nor a savior. Okay, I give up. Who are you?

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Too skinny. Besides, jumping in front of the train is not an option.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

And lets say that you know that the 5 people in option 1 are people involved with the mafia. Also, the people in the train are people convicted of being terrorists.

Or a variation. Say that you know that the 5 people and those on the train are terminally ill.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

the above really tests more the difference in personal action vs inpersonal action than the basic question, is it ok to kill one to save five

if you like this kind of stuff, you should check out the harvard moral sense test

http://moral.wjh.harvard.edu/

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Note that there is no way you could know that the fat guy would stop the train if you pushed him into it. You would, however, be able to surmise that the train being on the other track would have a predictable outcome.

Your brain isn't just trying to avoid direct, causal responsibility, but it's properly evaluating statistical likelihoods.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

I will push/pull all the switches and I will give the fat guy a really bad guilt trip so he'll jump on his own accord.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

i was trying to think of some trick to save everyone, but if its basically would you take action if it meant four more people being alive than if you hadn't, then i'd rather have one death on my conscience than 5. not taking action wouldn't absolve you of guilt when you know you could have saved them...

now if the 3rd alternative was to throw my n900 on the tracks and save everyone, that really would be a moral dilemma!

Re: Maemo Morality
 

In every scenario the train will be delayed or derailed, so I will leave quickly to go catch a bus.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

I must be having a dense moment. I thought we push the fat guy because he has committed the deadly sin of gluttony, and thus some of us would rationalize pushing him would be okay then. But you (or the question) seem to be saying that the fat guy actually has enough mass to have a significant affect on the train's momentum. I was confused because I find the latter hard to believe. Or is there a third possibility: He's so fat that the conductor sees him in time? Regardless, if I'm sure of the outcome by pushing him, he goes. I murder 2, save 5; I get a +3 in the bottom right corner of my spreadsheet for the win!

If, of course, we're talkin' about who these people are, everything's different: Hot chicks and loved ones first, then the spreadsheet thing. But you said the singular person was a dude, and I probably don't know him, so...

Re: Maemo Morality
 

1. Do nothing. I am not God, and I do not choose who lives or dies. If I act, it would be for a specific reason (eg. my child/wife is among the 5), not merely because of statistics - the one deserves to die no more or less than the five.

2. No. I am not a murderer.

3. No. I am not a murderer.


...or maybe I just film the carnage for youtube

...or take bets on the splatter radius

Re: Maemo Morality
 

I have just given up on the morality test, it is a load of *****! the tests are based on a ***** who has broken procedure/protocal and in order to rectify his mistake, someone has to die. Morality researchers need to get themselves a proper job!

Re: Maemo Morality
 

push and pull everything, then kill the others. Only way to save 50000 african children from starving to death.

just kidding

Re: Maemo Morality
 

1,2 & 3 - Answer: Scream like a girl, and do nothing decisive.

Do we have time to get their watches and wallets before they get mangled by the train?

Re: Maemo Morality
 

I would take out my N900 and record the splatter with it's 5MP camera. Then I would troll the other guy over his iPhone 3GSXPSKDOSO for having a 3.2MP camera.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

nope, i took all their valuables before i tied them to the tracks (for starting meego threads on here, entirely justified!)

Re: Maemo Morality
 

With all of these people tied to tracks, crazy trains, and broken swithches, where the fluck is Superman?

Re: Maemo Morality
 

1. Pull the switch
2. Try to untie. The fat man is not to get pushed. Why is there not an answer to put yourself on there if you want to be so heroic? Just because he is fat he has to die. That is messed up.
3. Don't pull the lever. Survival of the fittest! What did those five people do to be in that situation? I would more likely get video and Youtube that stuff. Or sell it to Faces of Death.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

He's busy on PR1.2...

The question should be: If you have an update, which is fixing 5 bugs. Would you deliver it, when 1 bug is not fixed at all? Even it's a major bug?

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Yeah, convincing the fat guy to be a hero is a good option, but would be good to try and find large enough objects to replace him first. Other good options would be flipping the switch on-off fast or precisely enough so maybe the train derails (would need to know if it’s a freighter and the speed/terrain config). I would also hunt down those who tie people to tracks, and those who sabotage both normal and emergency brakes or intentionally direct trains over people tied to tracks.

PS. #3 and #1 is not the same, in #1 the ’alterative’ has no choice, in #3 you can talk to the fat guy which opens a whole slew of other options.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

The first principle is do no harm, if you feel you have to choose who to kill you are being manipulated. (one life has infinite possibility 5 have infinite possibility)

You don't have to kill anyone. The choice to kill the 5 or 1 person was made by someone else. To quote Douglass Adams it is an SEP "Someone Else's Problem".

Hell for all I know it could even be a democratic state execution.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

If one has an ability to do something right, or cause an event to unfold in a morally correct way, but doesn't, does he have any moral responsibility for the outcome?

Thats sort of the question at the root of your questions. There is another question having to do with whether the moral value of humans is additive, and I think that no one can argue that over the long run it isn't.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

These are all basically the same question. In each case I'd sacrifice the 1 person to save the other 5. A lot of people think that's wrong for some reason, but if I have a choice of either letting 5 random people die or letting 1 random person die, it's an easy decision. Unless you believe in fate or some crap like that it should be a no-brainer.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Of course, the first assumption is that the situation is real and spontaneous. Otherwise, it could be a Steven Seagal movie sequel for all you know (let’s assume for a second no states do execution by running trains over convicts).

Re: Maemo Morality
 

1. I would pull the switch, but only halfway, so the train wouldn't run over any of the people. Perhaps it would crash, and the people inside the train could get injured, but none of them, nor the tied people would die.

2. and 3. The weight of a "fat" person is 120-150 kg at best, and the weight of only an electronic engine is 80 tonne, so the fat man wouldn't stop it.
Instead, I would jump onto the train, and try to activate the emergency break.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

...and that single person might have gone on to discover the cure for cancer, while one of the 5 may go on to become the next Hitler, or rapist/murderer/serial killer.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Ok, I've figured it out.

This is a trick question.

The answer is the same for all three questions. You don't do anything and let the situation mount into utter desperation. In the last second Chuck Norris will show up and roundhouse kick the train into PR1.2.

Right...? Right...??

Re: Maemo Morality
 

RIGHT!!! pick any prize from the top shelf! did someone just mention hitler? someone call godwin.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

True, but you have no way of knowing. It could be the other way around for all you know.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Quick question:
Is there any way to arrange all six of them in front of that train?

Re: Maemo Morality
 

LMFAO!

1- Unless one of them are family or friend, I let the 5 persons die.
2/3- Fat guy is not guilty for the stupid tied persons

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Here is another one:

You're driving a sports car, and you are approaching a bus stop.

You see that there is an old lady in the bus stop who is having a heart attack. Your car is fast enough to take her to the nearest hospital, but by the time the ambulance arrived, she would die.

You also notice that there is an old and very good friend of yours in the bus stop, and he asks you to drive him home. You know that he would be angry for you for a very-very long time if you didn't.

And also there is the best woman you have ever seen in your life. You know that you would never see her again if you pass the opportunity to meet her now.

What would you do in this situation?

Re: Maemo Morality
 

Correct. The point being that there is a seemingly infinite set of things we don't know, yet despite this most profound state of ignorance we presume to assert that saving 5 is somehow 'better' than saving one.

The point at which you decide to pull that switch (with no deeper knowledge of the people involved than their count) is the point at which you become an active decisive participant in a process that will end life.

That's significant. Far more significant than some cheap pop-psychology conundrum.

Re: Maemo Morality
 

let ur mate drive the granny and catch the bus with the hotty!

Re: Maemo Morality
 

I would open Google Chrome on my N900 and look for a better solution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrDHrwLUtvk

Re: Maemo Morality
 

No friend of mine would object to being stood up for some quality poontang...so I'd throw the old lady in the back, play the hero so the hot chick swoons into the front seat, and burn off into the sunset where rampant heroic sex awaits...hopefully with the hot chick, but if not, I doubt an old bag in cardiac arrest will be much of a struggle.