Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

What?

It talks about Intellectual Property (IP) but does not specify which part of the Andriod phones violate Microsoft's IP (ActiveSync? Sense UI?). And why is Google not part of this?

Link: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...27mshtcpr.mspx

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

I wonder if this has anything to do with the Apple suit. Cutting a deal with the devil?

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Microsoft is just trying to expand on the *perception* that Linux infringes on its mystery patents. Someone needs to stand up to them and publicly refuse to pay for this form of extortion. Companies that are basing their business on Linux need to unite their forces against these shenanigans and offer protection and even a reward to any company that is approached by Microsoft with similar intent and that is willing to publicly stand up to them.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

@rm42: what'choo talkin' 'bout, willis?

I applaud your pointless bravado, but we don't even know any concrete details behind MS & htc's deal.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

why are most of your post full of sarcasm? can you not reply normally?

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

It's probably down to the number of changes to the Android opperating system, most OS's are written once and then as we are experiencing at the moment, it's a long wait until the next update (pr 1.2)

Microsoft probably owns the patent for "writing a really bad OS so as to be able to patch up loads and make money in the background through advertising etc..."

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

We have all the details we are going to get.

"Microsoft Corp. and HTC Corp. have signed a patent agreement that provides broad coverage under Microsoft's patent portfolio for HTC's mobile phones running the Android mobile platform. Under the terms of the agreement, Microsoft will receive royalties from HTC."

What more do you want? The deal specifically mentions royalties for every Android phone due to its use of some mysterious, undisclosed, patent. Its like Jonny Mafioso announcing to the towns folk that the good guys from the groceries store on Passive Street have purchased protection from him against some mysterious calamity that could befall them. Jonny then goes on to encourage every other groceries store in town to purchase similar protection for their own good.

Microsoft is not going to specify what those patents are because they either do not exist or are easy to work around. That is why someone needs to stand up to them so that they show their cards.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

So why are they only going after HTC?

This may be a hardware more than software thing? Otherwise Microsoft should have patents filed against Motorola, Google, Samsung, etc. as well.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Maybe it is the driver for FAT/FAT32 for embedded systems?

or

"We (Microsoft) cannot compete in your marketplace so we will buy some of your profits via patent fees instead."

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

The deal specifically mentions Android, in other words Linux. This has been Microsoft's strategy for a while. Where have you been?

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu.../28/100033867/

http://alastairotter.com/2010/03/mic...tent-strategy/

No company using Linux is safe as long as this situation continues.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

It's probably 10$ per device, capped at 100$ a year or something like that, just like the Novel deal. This way Microsoft gets the PR that another Linux distributor licensed their "patents that Linux infringes on", while the distributor gets a very cheap insurance policy.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Can I assume that this type of patent "licensing" only applies to the US?

Can Microsoft do this to Nokia?

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

That still doesn't answer the question "why just HTC?".

Of course, this could be a piecemeal process and HTC was just the first to fold...

Microsoft and Nokia have an interesting relationship: comeptitors in some places, collaborators in others. I'm sure both tread carefully with each other when it comes to IP...

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

First any discussion at this point to what the licensing deal is in regards to is speculation.

There is nothing wrong with licensing MS Tech and layering it on to Android or any other product if it makes it better for the consumers. What in the end is more important is how it is used and if HTC can create a new patent about how it leverages the MS tech in coordination with its own tech cheers for them. That is innovation. Sometimes it makes sense to buy over building from scratch especially when considering how important time to market is in this space.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

The other thing that has me going "Huh?" is that the only part of "Linux" that is in Android is the kernel only.

I haven't read through all of Microsofts bull ****, of course, but are any of the patents related to the actual 'kernel' of linux?

One of these days I really ought to care more... but I just don't. Even if microsoft wins it won't stop Linux. It's a futile effort.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

The problem I see with all of these Microsoft patent deals related to Linux is that the specific technology being targeted is not mentioned. There are several problems with this. First of all, we need to remember that most Linux software is licensed under the GPL license which specifically precludes the use of discriminatory patent licensing. So, are Linux copyright holders rights being respected? And second, it creates an atmosphere of FUD around the use of Linux which can dampen its adoption.

PS: And yes, that includes Meego!

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Microsoft would like you to believe there is, and either not use the Linux kernel (instead use something like BSD, which they can take from freely without ever giving back) or pay them royalties.

They claim to hold patents on the kernel and have used this to squeeze royalties out of companies but never say what they might be, because the moment the kernel community knew they would either remove them from the kernel or would dig up prior art and move to have them voided. Other times they hold patents on ridiculous crap (VFAT long file names) or use patents to their monopolistic advantage (exFAT.)

Which is exactly what Microsoft wants.

Just don't forget: Microsoft hates it when you don't choose them, so they'll work to remove all other choices. And then they'll say you chose them.


(No, I don't like Microsoft.)

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Going after one patent infringer at a time, building a case, isn't unusual, and since HTC licenses Windows Mobile, there may have been extra leverage available.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

You are right - but rather than focus on the use of existing (un-named) IP- I am more interested in how it can affect the creation of net-new IP. The more I think of this topic I am beginning to believe that existing IP is just the building block of new IP.

Think about music and Danger Mouse's Grey album. The concept was that by taking existing music (ip) and using it in a new, innovative and unique way that it resulted in a new work that was outside of copyright of its constituent parts.

Now art and technology are different mediums with different IP laws that are applied to them. BUT collaboration and cross pollination will result in something new, different and (hopefully) better. But in order to drive innovation we need to respect the work of others, and allow them to profit off of their work - while not stopping new innovation.

That line is the most difficult to manage, and I surely do not have a solution there.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Any chance that there's a little bit of hysteria spreading here over Linux and how big bad microsoft is once again trampling on our freedoms?

is it possible (as has been muted) that since HTC built their company on windows mobile, microsoft have somehow got a stake in the hardware side of the operation instead of the software. Possibly (and speculatory) HTC phones have used, and still use (regardless of OS) patented microsoft tech. In which case, nothing to worry about, just another business deal.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

From reading this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/cell-phones/?...g=content;col1 about the Exchange integration, and the fact that only HTC is involved (for now), I think that HTC used some of their know-how in ActiveSync (that comes from their experience in Windows Mobile devices) for their Android devices.

However, Active Sync needs to be licensed, because it is Microsoft technology. I bet HTC got careless and forgot about it.

No need to cry "the wolf is coming" yet.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

The issue here is that in most companies, their software engineers (indeed, all engineers) are instructed NOT to look at patents or look for prior art. This is because if you infringe, you triple the damages.

In software, this is also because it is trivial to run over numerous existing software patents in the course of product development. This raises serious questions as to the value of the patents in question, as it dampens any sense of "non-obviousness." Many are hoping for re. Bilski to hinder software patents.


This is par for the course in the past 20 years of Microsoft's existence. They're more than willing to do anything it takes (even commit crimes) if it means driving competitors out of the marketplace.

Possible, but unlikely. They explicitly stated Android and Linux as being the targets of this "deal" with the express intent of trying to make people either reconsider using Android and Linux, or to easily give MS money.

I'd rather they be forced to come clean on the patents so they can be removed or invalidated.

Well we don't know. And Microsoft wants it that way. They want to cast the aura that "if you use Android and Linux, Microsoft may sue you if you don't give them lots of money."

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

A Microsoft statement:

"“As you may be aware, many technology companies active in the growing smartphone space have been taking increasing steps to protect their inventions. As the two companies have a long history of technical and commercial collaboration, Microsoft views this agreement as an effective example of how industry leaders can reach commercially reasonable arrangements that address intellectual property concerns.”"

From http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=...ontent;wrapper

I say, I prefer what MS did (reach out for an agreement) compared to what Apple did (sue the hell out of them.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Without more information, a rational judgement isn't possible. So unless someone has new information to post, there isn't going to be any meaningful discussion beyond the Microsoft vs Linux debate.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

This problem is not going to be solved as long as the world is ruled by selfishness and greed. Seriously. But, it is an interesting topic to think about and to debate. Microsoft represents one extreme view on the subject. The other extreme is the one represented by the Free Software Foundation. It is a good thing to understand both points of view before formulating your own. It sounds like you are familiar with the pro software patent point of view. Here is some interesting material on the opposing view:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/softwa...y-patents.html

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/stallman-patents.html

http://progfree.org/Patents/industry-at-risk.html

http://patentabsurdity.com/

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

A major portion of this 'atmosphere of FUD' is created by the responses we generate ourselves. Let's respond intelligently so as not to perpetuate baseless FUD.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

More info from Engadget:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/28/m...-licenses-htc/

While the UI part is a bit vague, the only thing I can think about that could be Microsoft's in Android would be the use of FAT32 (like the demand to TomTom) and ActiveSync. Any ideas?

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Wow, that's really interesting.

If the infringement is not due to any htc-specific implementation (hw/sw), why would htc settle this directly with MS?

Doesn't it make more sense to HTC to let Google settle all android-related infringements for everyone in their consortium?

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

One of the comments in Engadget offers an interesting idea:

"
You guys are all WRONG. Microsoft and HTC are pals. Microsoft just helped HTC big time here...

“Microsoft Corp. and HTC Corp. have signed a patent agreement that provides broad coverage under Microsoft’s patent portfolio for HTC’s mobile phones running the Android mobile platform” (Emphasis mine)

So yes, this seems to be Microsoft lending its (undoubtedly massive) arsenal of patents to help HTC and Google combat Apple (though, naturally, the rationale behind the deal — and Apple — are never named). It’s hard to imagine what else this could possibly be about [more below]. It’s also hard to figure out why Microsoft sent this release out at 11:30 at night."

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/28/m...ents/27474201/

So, let's imagine this scenario: When Apple takes HTC to the court, HTC could invoke Microsoft's patent licensing coverage as a defense...

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Because MS doesn't want any such patent infringement cases to be challenged. If they went after Android directly, Google would likely defend and try to move for invalidation. Worse yet, even if they were "valid," the moment the patents were exposed the kernel community would move to remove them if possible, or find prior art to aid Google in invalidation.

It's all about the perception Microsoft casts to other companies interested in Android and Linux. They want to make it look like a risky proposition.

Just ask Miguel de Icaza, who has faced huge amounts of resistance to his push to get Mono and .NET integrated into GNOME, due to MS's tendency to subtly introduce patent lawsuit FUD.

Only if they were somehow the same patents, and MS had the right to grant them.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

As far as I know, they could invoke prior art from their shiny new licensing from Microsoft.

I really don't know much about patents, what I know is that a) Being granted is only half of the process because b) they have to be defended in court in case of being challenged o using the patent to sue someone.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

@wmarone: If MS knows there are portions in Android that infringes on their patent, I don't think they can pick and choose to whom they will enforce this on.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

This happens ALL THE TIME. Nokia has similar patent deals with every single cellular device manufacturer out there, and then sued apple when they wouldn't sign up too. The only reason anyone is crying foul is because it's microsoft, even though in the cellular arena Nokia is the biggest patent giant on the block.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

What Microsoft wants is to stop, slow, or pollute the adoption of Linux. I think they know by now that they can't stop it. And the slow down is not giving them a lot to cheer for. The last option for them is to pollute it. They can pollute it from within, by inserting their technologies into Linux (Mono, .Net), by negating the free (as in money) aspects of Linux (requiring a license payment for every Linux user), and by corrupting its free (as in freedom) aspects (with software patents). Microsoft is loosing money because of Linux, and is bound to loose a lot more. So, I am sure that Microsoft wouldn't mind throwing some money into this problem as long as it could accomplish its goals regarding Linux.

Microsoft deal with Novell involved the payment of some royalties from Novell to Microsoft. However, it also involved the purchase of several Novel software deals brokered by Microsoft. In the end, Novell made more money directly from the deal than Microsoft. However, Novell lost a good chunk of good will from the Linux community and Microsoft gained a good FUD card that it can wave around to make other deals with.

So, going back to your question about what makes sense in the deal between HTC and Microsoft. Here is a greatly simplified possibility. HTC agrees to pay Microsoft a royalty for every HTC Android phone (a penny per device is sufficient for their purposes). In exchange, Microsoft will give them huge discounts on their Windows OS licenses. However, a requirement of the deal is that full terms have to remain undisclosed. This way, HTC wins financially in the short term, and Microsoft is able continue its goal of corrupting the Linux ethos.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

:D The photo ... :eek:

http://techrights.org/2010/04/28/mic...droid-tax-htc/

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

While the photo is funny, after having spent about 30 minutes reading that article and the referenced article, I have come to the conclusion that nothing written in any of the articles I read seemed to be true.

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Ha, ha. Yes, Roy can sometimes be a bit of an alarmist. However, he did have some interesting external links. I enjoyed some of them and didn't seem too far fetched to me. For example this one:

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart...-oracle-2010-4

What part in particular seems untrue to you?

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

Just adding fuel to the fire...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microso...documents_leak

http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/

worth looking at...

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

I think this deal has everything to do with Steve Jobs

http://i42.tinypic.com/8ytlop.jpg

Re: Microsoft will receive royalty for all HTC Android phones
 

They can choose to selectively enforce, just like you can with copyright. Only trademark forces the holder's hand.

Microsoft "negotiating" a patent licensing deal with companies that use Linux in their products? Yes, it is. Hopefully some day someone will say "NO" and force MS to take them to court and reveal the patents they're talking about.

And yes, the Halloween documents are a good way to look at Microsoft's mindset. I don't think they've changed in the slightest, only tempered by the fact that the abuse conviction would make future cases go badly for them.