Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

After reading many of the problems with the N900 something is becoming very clear and that is the OS of the N900 is getting damaged enough to put it into a loop situation and re-booting problems are now becoming more and more of a ongoing situation with the N900.
One of the most important part of ANY application developed for the N900 or any OS should always have a COMPLETE uninstall option that is simply either not taken into consideration not working or not implemented within the app itself.
The countless reasons now for re-flashing are becoming more and more apparent and all down to bad programming that is either NOT checked out properly with enough field testing or checked for un-installation PRIOR to being released as a credible installable application on this forum.
If an application cannot be proved to be capable of un-installation COMPLETELY leaving the os EXACTLY as it was prior to installation then it is leading to a complete re-flash situation and should never be allowed as a credible application to start with.
These are my thoughts and i would love to read other people's thoughts regarding this.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

apt-get --purge remove package_name

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I have never met a person that moans as much as you and i live with 3 women. lol
Seriously: dont install any more apps that have not been properly tested and you will get less problems.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

This is not a moan and for your information i dont have a single problem with my N900, this is all about everyone else's problems and is obviously very complex to just throw in unneeded comments :p

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

That is not a complete way to un-install any package as it will not fix anything written to the os as the damage is already done.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Do you think that it might be because people are installing stuff that is still, like, in development? Just a thought.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

There are only a few that I could think of that could 'damage' the OS, unless of course someone wrote a program to do that very thing...

Those would be things like the sixaxis driver, or bootmenu, or anything that messes with udev or init scripts.

From what I have noticed, most of those all have warnings on them saying that they could cause issues.

The worse 'damage' that I've had, is the rootfs becoming full, and not being able to easily tell out of the 50 apps I just installed, which one is hogging it all.

Fortunately that Storage app fixes that issue.

This really should only be an issue if things that are in Extras are hosing the N900. Since Testing and Devel both have warnings saying that they very well could hose it.

slaapliedje

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Absolutely and another problem because untill an app is indeed past development stages it should not be let out as an installable app on this forum as obviously there are many people who just dont realise what they are dealing with when installing an app just because it looks good or could do what they want it to do does not mean its been tested enough to be safe.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

If this situation is looked at properly and implemented in the right way to actually stop people from installing dangerous untested apps (and some tested i might add!) then i am sure their will be a lot less bricked, rebooting problems occuring on this forum.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Maybe we should warn people about the dangers of installing applications from Extras-devel.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I think more than that because anyone can install anything available on that section and really only developers should have access to those kind of installable apps because people seem to look past the warnings given and think they know best, then they have the bricked situation occuring.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Fixed it for you :)

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

The warning is not in RED I think this is what abill_uk wants...

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Déjà vu, Irony, Lulz - Thread Delivers!

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

This phone is made to be toyed with and tested... If people ignore the clear repeated warnings about extras devel then that is their own fault.
On the flip side this community is here to help people who get stuck or damage their OS etc and so most cases of so called bricking are fixed...

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Please look at the thread title before commenting as this is now a serious problem on this forum as many many people are having self induced problems with their N900's that are plain to see if you read through them.
There really is NO NEED for obnoxious comments guys ok.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

abill, so you basically want to take an open device and close it down a few notches. niiiice. i've bought this device for the pleasure of tinkering with it, not to have someone (whoever it may be, even Nokia) telling me what i should or should not install on it. what you're saying goes contrary to any open source principle.

'only developers should be allowed to install'.. why?! just because some users don't read/heed warnings, you'd prefer to take the liberty of everybody else to install whatever they want? that's wrong on so many levels, and smells a lot like the things some major companies are already doing - decide what's best for the users and keep them in a walled garden. well no thanks.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Abill_uk: what is the ideal solution for you?
How about if we put a warning note every time they want to install such apps and have them click on an agreement to acknowledge the risk before it can be installed on their device?

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I browsed onto engagdet and the first thing that came up was a apple article...my n900 died of a haemorrage..its currently having its time of the month atm so ill just leave it to it.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I am sure everyone knows the amount of problems that are happening mainly due to people installing apps that dont have a COMPLETE uninstall procedure with them and this i might add is a common problem in Windows that can also have malware written within the code.
I am not saying malware is the problem what i am saying is the huge amount of problems simply because people dont know how to get themselves out of it which usually means a complete re-flash.
Many of these kind of problems are happening simply because the app is overwriting the os to such a state it causes huge problems.
How many developers or engineers actually post "i have a re-boot or bricked problem please help !!!" situation on here? none i would guess but the problem IS getting bigger and i feel something could be done at least from the un-install situation to stop these problems occuring and taking up much needed space for other things.
How about a situation that an app needs to pass the un-install test before being allowed as an installable app on this forum before it gets there?.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

If I gave you a car, but then said, oh yes, there's no petrol in it and I've had the tank removed, because I've heard many cars get broken by driving into things. Would you see this as a positive thing?

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Most of the forum like being 'test pilots'

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

It does not matter what color the warnings are written in it simply does not stop people from wrecking their devices simply because they dont take the warning serious enough.
Ok as a test for all you guys, go look at the actuall problems being reported on this forum because of the apps and and mods currently freely available on here and then you might just realise the actual amount of self induced problems occuring here.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I suggest we have a code review by some experienced members before releasing the code to devel repo. reviewer can check if the app backs up all the os related files and while uninstalling restores them. A review could be easy as the code wud be open.

best thing wud be some1 create a short script which u pass on in args the file names of os files to be backed up and this script is called while uninstalling too.
I havent done any development on linux but my 2c based on the software development we follow at work.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Test pilots have the knowledge to know how to get themselves out of a sticky situation unlike the amount of "help me" we are getting simply because of the UNINSTALL procedure NOT being fully implemented on most given app's or mod's available for the N900.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I don't think that having to reflash is a fate worse than death. I don't think that hysterically exaggerating the dangers of applications that you haven't even named is particularly helpful. And we already have been warned into the ground that extras-devel programs might not be entirely safe.

I think that's enough warnings. I think that the real problem with reflashing is that it became harder with the N900 than it was with the N810 or the N800, which is dumb. It should have been made easier.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

The average N900 phone user isn't likely to go overboard experimenting with stuff from the forums or anything marked testing or experimental. If they do, they can probably figure out where to look for help as well.

Anyways, installing stuff beyond "factory-tested" always comes with some level of risk (functionality, privacy, puff of smoke etc. ...). This kind of indiscriminate warning against installing apps however is slightly silly.

Maybe that's one reason why the Meego project (the next version of OS) is planning to adopt the new but fast-developing BTRFS filesystem, which, among other things, saves storage space and <drumroll> allows the user to "roll back" earlier states of the file system, all the way back to factory settings.

"Accidentally" deleted your addressbook or half of the OS? No probs, restart the device, select the restore option, then the desired rolled-back date in the menus and it's like nothing ever happened...

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

How can a file system save storage space, but also remember every state it has been in? That seems completely contradictory

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Warnings in place are good enough i think as they do explain in full the risks involved, what i was mainly referring too was the un-install code written into the app as this is probably the most important part of the app for various reasons.
Untill the un-install code is written and tested and put through as a needed safe procedure for an app to gain application status on this forum we are going to have continuous occuring problems which in reality should not be there to start with if you think about this logically.
And indeed the flashing procedure is becoming more difficult simply because the wrong or incomplete .bin file does not overwrite the os completely to bring the device back to a working environment.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

apt-get remove app.. has always worked in linux env. and has always cleaned the files that has been changed on installed..

apt-get is a STRONG tool and keeps track on what is installed and where..



sure dont mess with init and such thing they do indeed mess up the system if you dont know what your doing .. but hey linux is a great thing and its ment to be meessed up some times ..

think of it that its a great way to clean up your system LOL

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

That would only be possible if we had a system restore point app on the N900, so yes a very valid point!.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

But also realise that some of the apps do in fact mess with init and the very reason we need some kind of un-install procedure implemented for every app AND/OR a system restore app written especially for the N900.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Here's one interview of btrfs' inventor, Chris Mason, with background information and some useful visual aids:

A short history of btrfs

It's quite brilliant, and with the big fish backing its development it looks set to become the mainstream next generation file system for open systems.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

abill_uk: You are utterly wrong here. There are a couple of way to uninstall programs completely. There is no need for extra set of programs for that task. You already have the choice to just uninstall the executable or both executable and config files. What els do you need? Do you even know a program that don't get's fully uninstalled and are not in testing or devel.

The programs in testing and devel though are under development and unfinished. There are a lot of warnings for installing programs from there.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

are you sure you want red sir? it does mean we'd have to change the light bulb!

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

No way am i wrong because the very problem is the app does not un-install completely in some cases as it has already done its damage to the os, hence why sometimes the reboot makes the loop and brick situation happen.
Extra set of programes?? just a COMPLETE uninstall would be sufficient and remember the goal is to get back the os as it was prior to install.
If you know anything about windows and i am sure you do why do we have regedit? your comments are not founded i am sorry to say.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

abill_uk:
there are thousands of cellphones available - one of them is the n900.

the n900 is officially unlocked and open for installation of any kind of applications. there are no restrictions. this means for example that we have full access to the hardware - incl 3dacceleration gpu, camera (tweaks and codecs (how about a theoretic 720p mjpeg recorder with dyn focus), phone applications (how about mms), usb (maybe even host) and dual boot possibilities... they even made it possible to overclock the cpu (!)
...AND the best of it all is that it doesnt require any jailbreaking or other ugly methods... we have official allowance from nokia to do whatever we want with our phone. they only supply the hardware with a os setup, and we take responsibility about the software. that makes this phone unique.

this is why i bought the n900... this is THE feature most of us have been waiting for which convinced us to buy the n900.

if a newbie buys the most advanced phone in the market without understanding how/ and that they should make proper backups - then thats just plain stupidity.
as long as its possible to unbrick the phone with certain methods there is actually no problem at all - its the same scenario with any advanced PC.

one phone in the market have been enginered exclusivly for us who wants the most extreme, advanced and raw computer experience, and you want to take that away from us.

people like u have other advanced but more restricted systems like android or symbian as an alternative, or just dont enable devel and testing, and there you go.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

What apps... either provide a service to this forum by listing these apps or STFU with this useless warning. Why not just post:

WARNING! If you don't tie your shoes you may trip and this could cause serious damage to your device if you fall on it.

Dude... You yourself said you do not have this problem. So you are spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt based on what?

What could happen?

You said it. Now provide the links. Show us these files and apps you speak of.
I do not doubt that this can happen. I know how it could happen.

I doubt however that you can point to even one app on this forum that will "seriously damage the os".

If you can, then report it in that thread please and save us all from viewing this FUD.

Your friend,

Sir Yo of Dude.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but what he wants is, that everytime you are going to install an app from extras-devel, the n900 should ask you at least 5 times if you are sure, type a confirmation code, sound an alarm informing you that your phone may (or may not) be damaged if you install, AND, before installing it, require the handwritten signature of at least 5 members of the maemo.org forums, accepting an agreement that you won't create a post on the forums in the case your phone gets damaged (annoying abill_uk) asking how to fix it.

Seriously, these kind of threads are more annoying than the ussual "i hate nokia" "nokia sucks" "n900 sucks" threads around.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

"Some applications available on this forum". Avoid weasel words.

Please provide a list of applications and the problems they are causing (what files/settings are affected, can this be reliably reproduced, etc..), and then report bugs against each one of them, and help providing any information necessary to fix problems (steps to reproduce, file and command output as requested by the developer).

I believe that many users coming from a non-open source background are not aware that they can report bugs and that these bug reports will be taken seriously and that these reports will improve the quality of the software once the bug is dealt with. Check out the bug reporting guidelines and then file a new bug report after a search for the bug report hasn't turned up any existing reports.