Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Since Nokia seem to have some inability to run a decent appstore (OVI), there was some ideas flinging around on #maemo (Irc).
Why not start our own Appstore.
I don't see anyone making large sums of money of it, but a small token of gratitude to the developers, in the form of a tiny sum of money would make the interest of making software much greater.
Ideas was flinging quite fast on IRC last night, so there is interest in it.

Discuss...


PS! Sorry for the bad grammar.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Are we talking about only Nokia devices?

I think there is a glaring gap for a decent OVI-type appstore for Symbian / maemo devices.

Ideally it would need to make a small profit to cover running costs. Maybe through ads and/or take a small cut of the app price (e.g. 10 or 20%)?

Could we use an open-source cart system to sell stuff?

I'm willing to start something up if people are interested.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

I think we should create a site that opperates on donations and advertising, everyone gets a share of the advertising and obviously those apps that are "better" will recieve more donations. Perhaps a percentage split of the avertising revenue.

If this route is taken we could nail two birds with one stone, first being that people like you and I can support and create our own apps and the product we paid for and secondly, not all media has to be purchased to make money. Could we not do this with the current app download site we have?

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Ideally a dedicated site designed for general public would be better. The existing download site is not very shiney

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

I think that this idea has potential. I'd go further; I think it is a must if the Nokia platforms are not going to die a death for the purposes of the casual user.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

If you look at the amount of downloads that have taken place something like 12 million, surely the advertising generated from a dedicated website would bring in a few notes and then split up between developers?

Another point is that with the likes of the n900, could there not be adverts shown when downloading through the app manager? I don't mind seeing an image while the app downloads and if it means that this will lead to more apps then so be it!

I just think it would be a good idea to harness alterantive payment methods, and stay true to linux roots.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Could we support other platforms in the future?
e.g. Android, "the next big thing"?

I know there are other sites that offer app downloads but they are so heavily laden with advertising the sites become a pain in the bum to use.

Should we host the apps on our own server or provide download links to apps instead (maybe both).

I used to buy stuff from Palm's app site years ago (when I had a Palm T3) and it was really frustrating reading a review, clicking the download link then get a "page not found" error.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

What happened to Litmus?

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

OK.

Let's imagine the site is running, advertising is bringing in some income and people are making donations.

How will we share profits with app makers?

Will the donation be towards the site or to a developer?

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Apple are doing something similar with there iAd scheme so it makes sense for us to do the same. There just seems to be alot of apps out there that are not finished or could do with a bit of tinkering, giving developers a bit of insentive would promote said apps.

Don't get me wrong here I believe devices such as the n900 have a great deal of apps, but I still think there is room fro improvement.

Money should go both to the site and developers, the site should take only what it needs, while the developers could perhaps get a share of the remainder based on downloads. A lame app that does nothing will obviously generate less cash as it's... well, rubbish.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Johnel,
I think people meant that administration, server expenses and upkeep/fixing/coding of store is handled by donations and advertisements. Apps have their own payment.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

I really like the idea and would be willing to support it in any way I could, including making a moderate financial donation.

I would like most apps to be free and open source, but appreciate that some may attract a fee.

You've srarted the ball rolling, so let's keep it moving!

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

My toughts where towards Maemo, and the natural followup on Meego.
Look at Android Market, Apple Appstore - They've been a great part of the success those platforms have had in the last years.

Yep - I think this is a good idea - Separated payments directly to the developer - Much less upkeep to have such a system. Paypal or something like that would be ideal, I think.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Another small note:
I know alot of you guys are against taking money for your code, but to be honest - Most of you wouldn't mind a few bucks as a gratitude for your effort (atleast I believe so).
And to be honest - OVIstore really sucks balls.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Can the appstore be sustained by donations and advertising alone?

Would we need corporate sponsors as well as advertising?

Do we want to attract commercial developers too (e.g. computer game companies)?

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Apple have used cash generated by advertising to support cheaper pricing of apps and I think this is a good idea, it would be nice to see free apps and these to be payed through advertising but perhaps a middle ground could be reached where developer competitions are held with cash rpizes or the like?

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

The '12 million' number regrettably is bogus.

11.88 million of that is new versions of fmms.

:)

To paste something I wrote elsewhere.

While interesting, this is highly misleading.
Take - for example - fmms, though this applies for all applications, it was one I happened to have bookmarked.

http://maemo.org/download-stats/index.php?unixn...
This graph shows downloads of fmms over time.
It adds up to well over 100K downloads.

But.

fmms is a great app.
So great I've downloaded it well over a dozen times!
http://maemo.org/packages/view/fmms/ - shows several updates. Look for the 'package promoted lines' - specifically that a new version was released on the 8th, and 18th of this month.

Zoom in on the graph above on may 9th, and you see that about 2000 upgraded on the 8th, 6000 on the 9th, 3000 on the tenth, with a tail of maybe 2000 over the succeeding few days.
This is around 15000 users who upgraded when 1.03 appeared in extras-testing.

Look along to may 18th, when it was promoted to extras - and the number is perhaps 10000 'normal' users.

Then the launch of PR1.2 caused a lot of people who don't normally update to update.
The size of this spike would probably be close to the 'real' number of users of fmms.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

I'd be willing to support this idea. After my positive experience with frals from fMMS helping me work my problem out, I'd be more than happy to donate.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

That's quite a good idea. Hosting sponsor is probably one of the first things we should be doing. Payment-solution is another thing which should be possible to get a sponsor for. Software/Design to run this Store - Well there should be enough smart and dedicated people in here to get it up and running.

"Put your app here, and have the chance of winning $$$" - Not sure if the "chance"-part is attractive for developers.

Another thing could be - "Hire a developer"-thing, which you could present a problem, and someone with the knownledge could develop it for you, for a small fee/donation.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

How about microdonations with, for example, Flattr (http://flattr.com)
A flattr button system would be a pretty cool feature for foss developers IMO.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

That's a great idea. Would also be a unique selling point of the site.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

@speedevil

It doesn't really matter if people are updating as apposed to actual downloads, people would still have to do something to get the update and it's at this point that the advertising would be shown, as I said through the app manager in some clever way or on a wbesite.

@phellarv

I agree the "put app here and have a chance to win $£$£" isn't the best but it does lead to apps/ideas being created, at the moment Smoku is updating his PSX4all maemo edition for a compo and it's this kind of thing we would want to attract. My point is that developers should be able to charge but at the same time it should be subsidised through advertising to keep the costs down as much as possable to attract more people.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Great idea, point me to the "community" app store and I'll be donating/contributing for several apps that I already use. The community have done a great job in bringing useful apps to us in the absence of a decent Ovi Store for 900, and deserve to be financially rewarded.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Interesting idea - I'm going to look into that a bit further.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Johnel, would just like to express my interest. I would be quite happy to pay in whatever way for decent apps in a decent appstore.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

But i thinh that my next phone will be Android Froyo ... if there will be qwerty and built in memory about 32-64gb

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

I see a problem with the distribution of ad-revenue: It is easy to manipulate download numbers. While it is still possible to make this more difficult (forced registration, karma system,...), I fear that it is very hard to fully get around this problem.

Why not just try to add a donation system to Extras? This looks easy to setup, because it does not duplicate existing infrastructure.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

I agree in the "distribute the wealth" problem. That's why I'm thinking a payment directly to the dev.

Using a donate button in Extras. Well it might work, but I think we will get locked down in the already existing way of doing things then. apt-get install, and not really caring on who makes the software. I firmly believe that an appstore made for the developers and by the developers, would take Maemo/(Meego) 1 step further.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Do we want to use an open source shopping cart?
(e.g. opencart)

Or does anyone have better suggestions?

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

dominik,
Ad-revenue to store upkeep and team who is responsible for it and different already implemented payment (e.g. paypal) to devels that want their packages to appstore.

I think extras donation system has been discussed many times but if things happen here at this speed it might actually happen in next year.*

*Slowslowslow

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

I've been thinking about a £1 a month scheme that allows people to join and download any of the apps... the apps would be spread out amongst the developers...
Needs a hell of a lot of thought... but could work :) - unfortunatley that could also undermime TMO....

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

as suggested in a brainstorm earlier: implement a flattr button to let people donate for foss. i might have a flattr invite left.

this might interest @brokep as well.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

That brainstorm have seemed to die silently.
We need something to happen - The Maemo/Meego platform has great potential, but not enough force to play in the big league.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Summary

The app store is funded by advertising, donations and corporate sponsorship?

People can pay for individual apps via PayPal and/or use flattr.

An alternative method is for a person to subscribe to the site - possibly get additional benefits?

A "Hire a Developer" system where people can make app requests?

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

How about an escrow / bounty system, so that a developer can expect a minimum payoff for creating an app? The store can take a small cut of the bounty, and/or a higher cut of the proceeds beyond the bounty.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

What percentage should the store take?

Wasn't there a website years ago that did something like this?
As a programmer you would search the site for jobs then contact the person/company and negotiate a price?

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

Such a system is already in place, seperated into 2 parts:
The first is called garage (or app manager on your device).
The second is called "paypal".
IMO it would be better to get the garage admins to implement some sort of automatic/integrated paypal scheme.

But then again, a different approach wont harm anyone.
However, Google already knows about my mails, search habbits and my exact location and movement profile (if I activate the geo location stuff anyway). No need to give them even more infos about me.
Hence, I hope the new approach would be a wrapper around existing apt repos so you do not HAVE to use it if you want a certain app.

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

@rofltov You're right that the technology already exists (e.g., garage, paypal). But it's not integrated, nor is it accepted as a community norm.

The point is to pick a model that's likely to be attractive to both users and developers, to support it with user interfaces *and* infrastructure, and to promote it.

For the bounties, those are probably best when
- users can publicly collaborate on a describing the functionality they'd like to see, and on growing the pot of money they'd be willing to spend
- interested developers could respond by refining feature proposals and bidding on the work

Re: Community Driven "Appstore"
 

@jacktanner Well defining your needs is not easy - Most of the apps bought on Appstore is the one in the category "Ooooh - New and shiny - Gotta get that". And with the upcoming drive from Nokia and Intel to get Meego more mainstream, it's even more so.
I think we should go for large, and mainstream - With the option to have such projects which you described - well defined projects which developers could grab, and work on - and after that, those apps could go mainstream.

I wouldn't go anywhere near describing me as well versed in what users need, but I think K.I.S.S. is an excellent approach in getting users for a product. And in this case the product is the Appstore. People wants a simple way of finding the app they like + plus some impulse (there you got the "oooh - nice and shiny"-factor). And that you don't achieve with donations and complicated things like defining needs, and waiting for a response, and then wait for the app to be coded and tested.
We want more users, and we want them to use the software the devs are making, then we have to provide an easy way of acquiring the software, and an easy way for the "customer" to repay the developer for him/her effort.

HAM, apt-get and dpkg comes easy to me, since I've been dabbling with Linux since back when Slackware 1.0 was hot. But for the casual user, it might seem like a minefield which they he/she have to cross to get the app they want.

I'm thinking a app where a user can browse for apps, with some small adds (textual/graphical). And the user finds an app which look suited for the users need. After that the user is presented with some choices with apps the user might be interested in too (Freedom of choice). The user then do a checkout, and pays for the app the given sum of money. And voila, the user is the proud owner of a new and shiny app, and the developer gets some buck on his/her bank-account.

I realize I described an ordinary way of doing things in the business, and that's why we need some unique selling point, like the possibility of hiring a developer or describing a need, and get some more users (with a similar need) to put up some money to get it coded and tested.

Probs lots of errors in this text, but I'm a bit tired atm.