No Further Support for 770
 

The headline says it all. Quim Gill from Nokia just made the following post to the Maemo Developers list. The short of it is that there will be no future OS 2006 firmware releases. I view this in an extremely poor light given the number and severity of existing bugs on the platform and the obvious effort by Nokia to push sales of the 770 hard in stores (on a product they considered dead) in recent months to clear existing stock on hand. The software environment on the 770 never felt like much more than "beta" in status. Quim Gill's answer is that this was a version 1 product and that support for the N800 will be much better. Needless to say, I am skeptical. This, taken together with numerous reports of extremely poor experiences with Nokia's repair services makes me very reluctant to recommend the N800 to anyone (and I am in a position to push hundreds of them).

On Sun, 2007-04-01 at 13:38 -0400, ext Gopi Flaherty wrote:
> Is it possible to get an official or semi-offical word on this?

Yes, this is what has happened:

- As commented before in this list, we are working on making the public
bugzilla as useful as it should. Some of us started cleaning the
database, bug by bug. There were lots of really obsolete bugs, and also
lots of dupes. In some cases though (like the one pointed in this
thread) we closed a bug as WONTFIX too fast. Our apologies, and read the
next points if you know of other examples.

- As Carlos Guerreiro has pointed out previously, there are no plans to
make any new official release for the 770. There is the IT OS hacker
edition, but it's not official and the official development in Nokia is
currently focused in the maemo 3.x, IT OS 2007 and what is coming next.
This means that from our side there is no official 770 bug activity.

But wait a minute.

- The step from IT OS 2006 to 2007 is incremental, and many bugs (like
the one starting this thread) in fact are not exclusively found in the
770, they still happen in the N800. We are working solving those bugs,
and they are as relevant as the new bugs found specifically on the IT OS
2007.

- In fact a good % of the bugs open in the public bugzilla and tagged as
770 are probably fixed in the current stable releases, but due to our
definitely improvable workflow we haven't been able to update the bug
tags and resolution.

- The amount work required to fix all this in the currently submitted
bugs is not small. We will face this somehow but, frankly, I'm more
confident of the results we get improving our workflow, which is
ultimately the cause of this misscommunication.

- None of this solves per se the fact that 770 customers are not getting
these fixes into their devices. As said, according to the current status
they won't get it through a new official release. A chance could be the
IT OS hacker edition, but then they will skip into officially
unsupported land.

- It seems unrealistic to expect a guarantee of having all these bugs
fixed in a potential new version of the hacker edition, but perhaps we
can work out something focusing on the most annoying bugs that are
already solved in the N800? I'm just thinking out loud, we haven't got
any conversation about this as far as I'm aware.

If you have a better solution please share it.


> Now I warn them, it
> gets better until Nokia decides it's time for you to spend another $400.

This perception is understandable considering what has happened to the
770. Let me just state that the current status of this first product is
the result of a lack of better support planning specific for the
Internet Tablets. Not an effect of a kind of business model thinking
that customers will go for a new device every year.

We are learning, and we are applying the new lessons to the current
strategy. N800 customers (and developers targeting this device) will
received and improved support. We will provide details as soon as we
approve the new plans, currently under discussion.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I didn't see such effort from Nokia. They even did not lower the price of n770 to make it more attractive. Current price of 350 EUR vs 400 EUR for n800 makes it clear which device is good to buy. If you listen to interview with Ari Jaaksi mentioned in this thread http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ead.php?t=5534 it is intentional and they hope people will not buy n770 anymore. But still there may be people who prefer n770 for whatever reason so they still sell it. Maybe it also means that manufacturing costs of such first device is so high they cannot even reduce price because they profit is so thin.

I think it is fair. You may have another opinion but I think anyone could see N770 was first of its kind and this could be expected. All companies do it. If you don't like it, don't buy such devices and wait for second or third revision of the product.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I do not believe it. I have found a company that I respect less than Microsoft. At least MS tries to fix the errors in its' products.

Do you know the really scary part? They will likely do the same to n800 users in about 18 months.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Aside from the Nokia bashing - what does this mean exactly ? I hoped for another iteration of the OS 2006 but this doesn't really come as a surprise - however how about opening the OS a little more (even to full open source) ? We could fix some of the bugs ourselves ...

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

This is exactly the one point that proves Nokia 770/Maemo is not a true Open Source Platform... :(

It would be so great if there'd finally be an alternative to Maemo on the 770 hardware.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

which is why it makes me hesitant to drop another 400 bucks for a product that will be End-Of-Life'd in 10 months. I understand that technology and Moores law dictates that most of the stuff we have now will eventually become obsolete, but really, most of the computers I buy still have a shelf life of 3 to 4 years.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

That's what all of us were expecting, or be scared of. I am an owner of a 770, and now I finally know that I will be stucked with this OS where all of the main components have to be replaced by others applications because they suck (I'm talking of RSS reader that I replaced with Bloglines770, Mail/sylpheed - claws mail, Opera / minimo).

This despite all of the words that were spent in the beginning (you will not be left alone, OS2006 will continue to be developed etc.). One release about no one knows the bugfixes.

Oh, my god. I am still phoning each day my colleague in USA to ask him to go round Huston to get a closing CompUSA and get the N800 deal, but how much should I expect it to be supported?

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I think you need to re-read the commentary.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I stand by my prediction. There is no logical reason to completely abandon a device when it is only 18 months old and you continue to sell it. I can see it being done for cell phones, but a computer?


This was such a stupid decision on their part. What would have been the expense of advancing the OS for the 770 from OS2006 to later editions, when compared to the customer base they alienated?

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Texrat, having read the original post, I agree that the N800 may have a better life than the 770 - and I realize that the open source card has been played quite a few times here, but I would really like to hear an answer - if the 770 has been dropped from active development (and I suppose active fabrication also) is opening the OS a possibility ?

Even if it will not be the party line :rolleyes: I would like to know where others stand ...

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I am shocked by the outright admission there will be no further OS 2006 releases - after Jaaksi's comments I had hoped for, no, expected at least one more release which addressed the more obvious and annoying bugs in the Nokia source code. Think of this release as a final "thank you" from Nokia and I reckon it would have been accepted by many 770 owners as being the official end of the line. But now they (and me included) will receive nothing.

The last 770 release in January should be forgotten - it really was a waste of time due to the lack of any obvious fixes. Perhaps Nokia saw this as their exit plan for the 770, but it was too soon and too little.

In all honesty, Nokia haven't fixed anything in OS 2006 since at least Q4 2006 - development of OS 2006 ended long before we knew about it. It's just taken Nokia 6 months to admit it.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

:mad: Like many good people here have already mentioned, I too would have been happier if Nokia could Fix the bugs they have with OS 2006 before actually washing their hands off of the Nokia 770. When they came out with N800, I felt that this is it, they will not support the Nokia 770 anymore but then Dr Ari Jaaksi mentioned that they would support it a little more time. It is a different fact that this little time ( probably the time it took him to mention falsely that the Nokia 770 will be supported for some more time) mentioned by Ari Jaaksi really meant nothing. So like Milhouse mentioned, essentially we are stuck with it. The feeling of helplessness comes more from the fact that we all have been taken for a ride. Nokia got our money and that is it. Why would they care anymore? They are / were here to sell a product. Well, they did that and did it well. Now why should they bother anymore?

Finally, we see Nokia's ' feet of Clay '. This is so very similar to Sharp's quick exit from USA with their PDA.

I have always been a great fan of Nokia Phones and I still use one but honestly I don’t think that I am going to get a new one after I am done with this one. Also, It is a good thing that I convinced myself that I do not need the N800, because probably this too would go the way the Nokia 770 went.

So in all honesty, this Nokia 770 will be the last Nokia IT that I buy. Some of the things that work with it is fine but, no more. I cannot afford to buy a $ 300-400 device every time it comes out, when I very well know that it will not be supported after a few months.

Goodbye Nokia.

" We had joy, we had fun
we had seasons and the sun,
but you moved on,
leaving me behind."

It was nice knowing you.:rolleyes:

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

What I find even more bizarre is that Nokia continue to sell the 770 as if it were a current product yet refuse to fix bugs and will not release any future firmware updates. Talk about having your cake and eating it!

Nokia over produced (or perhaps undersold) the 770 and are happy to sell it to unsuspecting buyers, yet at the same time they refuse to fix any bugs those new customers may find - what kind of support is that, Dr Jaaksi?

While the 770 remains a current item it should receive occasional firmware updates - not nearly as often as the N800 but still every now and again. The continued sales are, after all, funding future development and some of that development should benefit the 770.

As soon as the 770 is officially discontinued and no longer available for sale it should be followed by a final and "last hurrah" of a firmware release - a roll up of all the 770 bugs that could be fixed within a reasonable time-frame and at reasonable cost.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Of course it's a possibility, and I firmly believe that the guys doing the real work on the tablets support that possibility 100%. Like the improvement of reverse logistics, however, this decision will be in the hands of executive management.

Personally I lean toward a gradual release of control as devices are orphaned, starting of course with the 770. There is precedence in the industry for this, and despite the protests of naysayers (and I do understand the nature of their complaints) Nokia does support OSS.

One comment I think is being overlooked in the quoted comemntary is how the tablet program is re-evaluating certain things. Trust me, in the Nokia world, that is profound. ;)

EDIT: you guys need to keep adding comments (thoughtful, objective, informative, etc) to Dr. Jaaksi's blog-- even if he hasn't posted in a while. Don't let the subject go stale-- that's what executive management counts on. Keep the dialog going. Point out that there are 6000 unique users on this forum-- surely they represent customers!

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

You mean OS2006. Yes OS2006 is dead and no you are not stuck with it completely. As I understand it they simply do not have resources to maintain two versions of the system. I guess that small linux tablet developer group inside big Nokia surprised by its success is still pretty understaffed so they really focus on one goal now - fixing N800 (which is IMO still beta device too). Of course we as customers don't care and shouldn't care about this. What I want to say is that if there is some future, it is OS2007 on n770 currently called hacker edition, not 2006 system. It seems to work reasonably well and is in my opinion even better and more stable than 'stable' 2006 system. From the name you would expect rough edges. I didn't find any so far (except two minor fixable things - internet radio applet and sound in SDL programs). If you are not complete linux newbie, go for it and try it http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ead.php?t=4852 . Also read what Quim said, they are thinking about this too. Officially it will probably stay unsupported (as anything for n770 in future) but it would take them much less resources to keep os2007 on 770 sort of living then trying to maintain dead IT2006. And we will win too since the gap between n770 and n800 will be smaller and most packages for n800 will work on n770 too.

So if you want to push them, maybe better is to push into (officially unsupported) OS2007 direction than the dead 2006 one. Just my opinion.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Seems too good to be true - especially considering Ari Jaaksi's declarations that OS2007 will never be completely ported on the 770. The hacker edition is a very good solution _IF_ Nokia choses it.

What disapoints me is the response on this thread - from the "almost 6000 users" that this forum has (thanks Texrat, I didn't know the number :p ) there are only a few responses. With this kind of leverage I don't know if we will ever get any reponse ...

btw, fanoush, thanks for your great effort on the kernel (plus the other stuff, but that one really hits the spot) :D

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I propose Nokia let 770 users have a upgrade/trade-in option! :D

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

:D :D Wow ! ! ! Someone sure is dreaming of a Silver Nokia N800. :D :D

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

It is a shame that Nokia is ending support for the 770. There is a lot of inventory floating around out there. I guess we have to plead with Nokia to open up the code so the community can continue to support the device. Distributions like debian prove that an OS doesn't need to have a corporation behind it, but help from the hardware manufacturer can really make a difference.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

That's what I'm hoping for at this point.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I think it is very simple. If Nokia drops the support for the 770 such early then many users will drop their support in not buying new Nokia devices.

As I bought the N770 and thought it runs a free Linux, but at the moment I'm pretty much disappointed after I know it better.

Now I'm using the N770 as an E-Book reader and wait for a small device which runs one of the big Linux distros ...

... THEN I have support and no 18 month hardware subscription.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Anyone who is worried that a nice machine could die should visit

http://www.newtontalk.net/archive/newtontalk.2007-03/

and be assured that the enthusiasts always win.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

All of us must remember that Nokia is fairly new to the UMPC game. This may disappoint many people, but in my opinion, anyone that bought the n770 was a mere ALPHA/BETA tester for a future device to come. The future device today is the the N800. This is not a mystery though, all great things require time to build upon each predecessor.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Now some real enthusiasm for 770 is needed. What I would like to see, is a fully Canolaized 770. Canola has spinned the wheel. Put a few more items on the wheel, start Minimo/Mplayer/Mail/...

I want to remind/ inform those not familiar with, of Nokia Dbox2. A digital tv box, originally used in German cable networks, with Betanova software, now runs on linux, utilizes the originally useless 10MB ethernet connection for recording digital tv programs to a PC or a NAS. You can watch your recordings using Dbox2 Movieplayer or with help of VLC runnning on a PC, one can listen to web radio, show photos... Guys have even put an ide hard disk in that box and I think some success has been made using an RW-DVD. From Betanova to a completely different OS. Do some Googling and you propably will be impressed (Dbox2, Neutrino, Jacktherabber, Yadi, Dlaatikko)

Another nice example of real enthusiasm is NSLU2, which I use for as a media server (NFS-server) for my Dbox2. Flash a new firmware to this <100 Eur device, start OS from a HD/memory stick, install what ever package is needed for your purposes OR install complete Debian to it. (NSLU2, slug, unslung, openslus, genttoslug)

I know all this takes a lot of effort and I myself can only assist in beta testing and maybe translations, but using boot menu-type approach, starting OS from a memory card, everybody intrested could safely be part of this new venture.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

That’s no reason to repeat those same mistakes. There’s enough history to step up and step beyond the failings of the past. Just do the right thing and open or port OS2007 (hacker edition??) to the 770 so “enthusiasts” can keep their toys (and allow the rest of us end-users to play too - :) ).

And yes, I’m disturbed by this latest development since I’m not sure how future non-support will affect my continued use of the device. I’ve had my 770 barely 12 months! Did your box/paperwork say “Alpha/Beta test device”? Mine didn’t. I got the impression the device was tried and true; and at $400, would be around much longer than 12 months. Perhaps the development has been too fast???? "All great things" indeed!

Anyway, should people who are mostly satisfied with the out-of-the-box version be concerned by Nokia dropping support? Will my 770 work in the morning? If not, will Nokia repair it?

And no, I will not be purchasing an 800. That trust has been broken.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Yes, great things take time and experience, but the users and clients do not have to be beta-testers or unwilling investors. This opinion (which sounds like a buddhist chant coming from Nokia heardquarters :) ) is false - nowhere in the ads was there a warning "Buggy platform" and no price reductions have been offered even AFTER the bugs were identified and stacked mile high.

What irks me is the way they play around with the idea of open source : bugs everywhere, but "hey, it's normal - we are aproviding the hardware; the software is yours to do. However wait - you can only create a few applications - and when we say it's over you'd better get your stuff and move to the next platform. We'll get it this time !"

I don't see the difference between developing for the 770/N800 and a Windows Mobile device - you have the same control over the OS. Anything else is a problem of semantics.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

it's not really my place to add my 2 cents here, as I'm far, far less qualified to talk about this subject than the majority of you, but I'll happily lend my voice to the chorus, however, of course I'd like to see continued support of the 770, so show me where to sign the petition and I'll do it :)

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

That's huge oversimplification and exaggeration. With windows mobile you are completely screwed. With maemo you have approx. 90% (my guess) of system sources available. This still makes it not completely free and some bugs are really not fixable, but you (or someone else) can do a lot to fix your problems. That's big practical difference not just problem of semantics.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Apple will be new to the cellphone game when it comes out with the iPhone this summer. Do you think the iPhone will be a mere ALPHA/BETA product? I bet it will be polished and a fully functional product.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Uhmmm. You are talking about Windows, arnt you :) . Or do you talk about Nero who was burning Rom to build a new one (he got killed)?

If you have followed the development of Linux you see that great Linux distros improve continuously and are not written from scratch every 18 month. This is the only way to gain a big community. Without a big community contributing back into the Project a Linux distro cannot survive.
Nokia is doing the best to kill the community by cutting it in two halves.

What we could do is to jump on the Zaurus train if all details of the N770 were released ...

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Ok, what would you think, as a 800 buyer, if in a matter of 12 month the "future device" will be the N900? (not so unprobable, since Nokia already announced the release of Wimax tablets for 2008)

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Yes, it is an exageration but it's not major - at least not in the sense I'm thinking. I wasn't talking about developer control and access to resources, I was refering to control over the life of the OS and implicitly over the life of the device. I have passed through the same problem with other devices (Jornada 720, Zaurus) and I'm getting a little tired of bone head decisions in the name of progress. I really feel the irony of deciding "we need to sell the next version" because sometimes that is my motto too, but I had hoped Nokia would get it right - at least in the last hour.

I can only hope now that before throwing it away they release everything - and I'm putting all my hopes in this. The only thing we need to do is let them understand they won't be losing sales, but rather get ahead of the mobile devices crowd and satisfy their "pro" users

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I'd be wanting to know "How much?" :) I'm a bit of a tech whore myself.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

I'd be thinkin' that myself too, but it's not that I have four hundred bucks a year to spend into this kind of things (something more, if you think that I am paying it in Euros :mad: )

Oh! By the way, is there anyone who wants to get me one N800 at 279$ at a closing CompUSA and send it to a company in Texas? One of my colleagues is over there.. :)

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

And I'll bet it has bugs, and doesn't sell anywhere near the insanely projected numbers, and is eventually abandoned.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

This is really disappointing. I bought my 770 in December, 2006. It's still covered by the warranty. Now I learn that Nokia is abandoning it. This is unacceptable!

Others have suggested that OSS developers take over fixing the OS for the 770. As much as I'd like to believe that will work, my experience tells me that it'll be a crapshoot. I had a Sharp Zaurus for three years. In that time, I used OpenZaurus. It was nice that there was something that worked but there weren't enough volunteers to fix bugs and the build system was undocumented and impossible to figure out unless you read the source code.

If volunteer OSS developers can maintain and improve the OS for the 770, I'll be overjoyed. I'm not holding my breath.

To whom at Nokia can I complain?

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Ari Jaaksi:

http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

The topic has been heating up these days on the maemo mailing lists (users and dev), maybe you could start there.

Texrat has also suggested Dr Jaksi's blog, but I'm doubtful about that, I think it's mostly a soapbox for him and the comments are overflowing with spam anyway.

What saddens me most (apart from individual perceived loss) is that from the responses I see in the lists from Nokia staff, I get the impression that their maemo team is mostly a bunch of talented, well-meaning people, not so different from the community leaders on the other side, but they are getting stonewalled and hindered by corporate ponderousness and hidden agendas on a lot of fronts (surprise, eh ?), and there is a risk that all their hard work and good ideas will end up wasted that way...

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

The cynical among us saw this coming. As soon as the N800 was officially released, we heralded the end of the 770. Nokia tried to deny it, tried to assuage concerns, and some of us even bought it, but now it's official.

I'll repeat my initial argument. What the hell is so innovative and special in the N800 that it warrants abandoning the 770 entirely?

The added flash memory and memory card slot? No, that just adds file system space for storing music and videos. The extra RAM or faster CPU? It lets N800 users run more programs at once, and even some more CPU-intensive applications, but it's not a huge advance. The camera, or bluetooth 2.0? Please, how many applications (so far) are even using either of those?

There is nothing new in the N800 that justifies cutting off 770 users from OS2007. The proof is in the viability of the "hacker edition" that almost works but will never be supported (officially or otherwise).

I am extremely disappointed in the way Nokia handled this situation. I like the 770, and the N800 is a decent hardware improvement, but there is no reason (other than laziness) that Nokia needed to end support of the 770. I (and I'm sure other 770 users) would have been perfectly content if they simply added a new set of (specialized) applications that required the N800 for performance or feature reasons, while continuing to support general OS2007 functionality on the 770.

One word, Nokia: ouch.

Re: No Further Support for 770
 

Hi,

as a most of the time silent reader i totally agree with gnuite's view.
Being completely pleased with my 770 and seeing it's still being sold i cannot accept the OSS mirage simply thrown away so badly...
Hey ! call me naive but i'm a profound believer of openess goodness and Nokia is not feeting any good with my approach these days.

Having said this, i've installed the hacker's edition rootfs to flash and have evaluated it for an hour or so. I completely agree with what has been said elsewhere in this forum : basic tablet operations are going remarkably well.
This leads me to think that my new naive dream is obtaining some kind of non supported continued availability for this HE edition on the soon "prehistoric" 770 ! :D

As others expressed already, weeks to come will determine how interested i will or won't be in next Nokia's IT products.

See ya, Alex