Do you believe?
 

Discuss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrIOi...eature=related

Re: Do you believe?
 

I thought this was a Cher thread. Nvm

Re: Do you believe?
 

So i take it, thats a no from you Nosa?

Re: Do you believe?
 

I used to believe that probability suggested intelligent life in great numbers.

Then I learned that there are significant natural forces at work against intelligent life arising.

So I still believe life is plentiful throughout the universe, but intelligence is rare.

I suspect UFOs are a mix of mistakes, experimental craft, and time travelers from the future.

Re: Do you believe?
 

It would be presumptuous to believe that we are the only planet in the whole universe that has managed to bear life. There are other solar systems such as ours, there are other planets that seem to be as ours, and comets have probably also hit it, bringing in the necessary ingredients for life (or eradicating it).

So yeah, there are probably other lifeforms out there. But assuming that they can travel across galaxies and visit us, assuming any of the footage on YouTube is true, assuming that there are "Visitors" among us, without anyone knowing (for crying out loud, we can't even keep government secrets without forgetting them on the train) is a bit pushing the envelope.

First of all, why? Why would any race bother with visiting us, without making contact? One can only assume that most probably, other civilised societies also have ideas such as money, and limited resources (so that they need to prioritise). So, creating a vessel and sending it half way across the universe to visit us seems highly improbably for recreational use. So scientific maybe? Sure, but what are they getting from it? If they are so advanced, then they most probably aren't learning that much from us (having made the same mistakes a long, long time ago).

Maybe they are in contact with our governments? Sure, but again, what are they exchanging? Do we have anything of value to offer? If so, how come nobody knows about it? UFOlogists only talk about people being taken and having implants, if there was any truth to a government-conspiracy, then surely it would be all over the tin-foil-hat forums?

There is one, much more plausible explanation. If we ever have visitors knocking on our door, it'll be because we're either a/ food, b/ sitting on a planet they could use because they destroyed theirs. We'd get nuked from outer orbit without ever having a chance to reply, and that'd be the end of it. What? They're aliens, so they're not capable of such madness? We did it, time and time again. Whites did it with blacks, indians; well, anything that wasn't white.

Again, as I quite often come to say: Stupid men are way too arrogant, think they're way too important. We're not important to a species that has involved travel across galaxies, we're not even remotely interesting. Our planet is very, very specific. It's also quite preposterous to believe that their life-form would be compatible with our planet.

Edit: To sum it up: Life out There? Yes. UFOs? No.

Re: Do you believe?
 

I'd like to be able to say "UFOs: no" myself, based on what I posted earlier, but I can't. I've seen them.

Now, as to what these things were I have no idea. All I can say is what they weren't: anything our publicized technology at the time could create.

Re: Do you believe?
 

CrashandDie, interesting read, one other possible reason they could be here (if i believed, which i dont really) would be to study another species all together, humans probably couldnt teach them much, but the biological diversity on our planet, and in perticular some of the amazing resistances and coping skills simple bacteria have could be far more facinating than boring old us :P

Re: Do you believe?
 

Thanks for the responses guys. I often wonder how the human race would react, if the governments of the world disclosed what i think has been hidden/covered up for decades.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...90221766439646

Re: Do you believe?
 

Indeed, I did cite science as a probable reason for a visit, but then why the secrecy?

When we observe animals, we're not hiding the fact we are observing them. We're not interrupting them, and more importantly, we do not act upon our observations (we don't scare the rabbit so it wouldn't get fetched by the wolf, we don't throw meat at the lions so they can survive another year) -- we don't really hide, either.

I'm quite a keen photographer. I try not to be obvious when capturing wildlife, because they are scared of me. They can see me, and few minutes later return to their normal activity, I just don't go jumping all around in their face. This would be quite close to the behaviour most UFOlogists are describing. There is one major difference however: if my subject comes up to me, asking for contact, I won't run away like a little schoolgirl -- quite the contrary, I'll use the opportunity for close-ups.

This is really for me the bit where UFOlogism doesn't add up in my book. Why would it be a big old secret, and why no tangible proof? Anywhere you go in Africa, you'll find physical evidence of the Whites' arrival. An old car, a blown out tyre, a coca cola bottle. How come we don't have a crashed UFO somewhere? How came radio amateurs never picked up anything? How come amateur astronomers (and we know how good they are) never spotted anything?

It's not difficult to see a planet in quite a bit of detail for a hobbyist. Surely we'd have seen a bigass ship refuelling on Saturn.

But no, the only things we get are hoaxes, shaky videos, and people telling you they saw what they saw. No offence Texrat, I'm sure you did see something, but as you admit yourself, you don't know what it was. I'm pretty sure the people who saw a virgin where intimately convinced they saw something (and they probably did), but there is also a good chance it wasn't what they thought it was.

I too, saw a UFO. From my (old) room, you could see a big field, next to a river. One day, I saw a flickering light pattern, hovering at around 50 meters above the ground. It was moving from left to right and back at varying speed (think the knight rider led bouncing back and forth), and was seriously bright, the light also became brighter as it approached the end of a specification direction. The thing was maybe 200 meters away, but I could see is as I see my computer now. And then, suddenly, it was gone (sound familiar, yet?).

I spent days thinking about it, questioning my own sanity, and prepared a video camera. Sure enough, exactly one week later, around the same time, it happened again. One thing that got me thinking, was the fact it had respected the daylight saving time. Now, I'm not a UFO expert, but I doubt they'd care about our timezones moving around a bit. So I took my bike, and went out to see, the next week, what was going on.

So, what was it, I hear you ask? A plane. Just not any old plane. The farmer had installed a net, because that year there was some insect invasion, and he needed to protect his oldest (and most expensive) olive trees. The net was so fine you could see it from maybe 30 feet away, but hardly after that. The angle it had from my house meant it had the ability to reflect strong lights towards me, however I could still see right through. Between 4 and 6 in the afternoon, the farmer had his automated water system spraying the whole lot, and a few minutes after 5, the plane would land. The water would increase the reflectiveness of the net, and water pressure would cause it to move, making the reflection go back and forth from left to right as I had noticed.

The human mind has an uncanny ability to see patterns, even when there are none. There is an old scientific experiment where you put a pigeon in a box, and when he pushes a button he gets food. Take another pigeon, but make the button press randomly give some food (say a 50% chance). Most animals will repeat exactly what they did before pressing the button because they saw a relation (move twice counter clock wise, than tap the beak against the ceiling and hit the button 4 times, tap ceiling again and hit button, there's food!). And the more they do it, the more they notice patterns (ah, I can't use the same pattern twice, I have to invent 3 new patterns before it rewards me; followed by "it didn't reward me, I must've screwed up one of the patterns").

We are pattern animals, that's how we survive. We know how to recognise someone from our clan, because upon that trust, our life and death could be depending. How many of us have felt a chill down our spine when we saw the face on Mars?

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/20..._300x337,0.jpg

How many of us went "Meh, figures" when we saw the actual hill that made that face? It was just pure luck.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ima...ce2001_mgs.jpg

How many of us have looked at the moon and seen the guy whistling?

http://www.stargazing.net/david/moon...7s315c2man.jpg

Imagine yourself, 20000 years ago (for those who can believe that), and as you're walking in the mid-African plain, you hear some rustling to your right. You have two options. Draw your weapon and crouch because it may have been a predator, or just assume it was the wind. Well, Darwin award to those who thought it was the wind -- you've just been eaten by a lion. What does this mean? That we are genetically wired to be weary of things. It also means that are instinct to recognise patterns has grown tremendously (because our ancestor who could see the pattern of rustling grass followed by a deadly attack gave us that ability).

Here's a good one I like to quote every now and then during these discussions: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem; Occam's razor, "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one".

Simplest, is quite relative, but widely accepted in the following point:

You are walking down a path, and about to tell your best friend his wife cheated on him. As you are opening your mouth to say it, a branch falls and hits you on the head. Two explanations: "the Gods just told you to shut up", and "the wind eroded the branch's strength over the years (birds probably helped too), and it has succumbed on the very unfortunate moment you passed under it".

So, which of these is the "simplest" explanation:
- Life not only managed to happen on another planet than ours (and most probably another galaxy), not only that, but managed to become intelligent, not only that, but managed to not kill their own planet in the process of their development, not only that, but managed to disprove Einstein by inventing intergalactic space travel that could be achieved in one's lifetime, not only that, but have been flying around long enough to finally find us, not only that, but managed to do so, not in the millions of years before this very century, but right at this very moment, just when science and society had achieved a point that we finally could imagine aliens, flying saucers and science fiction, not only that, but have been analysing us, and upon being discovered multiple times, they've never stuck around to say hi, not only that, they happen to be exactly as science fiction described them 70 years ago.

Or:
- People have seen weird ****, due to refraction, secret government weapons, weather balloons, yada yada yada, and had to feel special.

You may have seen a UFO, that doesn't mean it's extraterrestrial.

Edit: typos, forgotten words.

Re: Do you believe?
 

I've seen weird stuff... even think I've seen an UFO once in my life.

So yeah... I do believe. But I'm quite sure they'd stay the heck away from Earth. I mean, we attack others if they don't use the same phone as we do...

Re: Do you believe?
 

I believe the secrecy in part has to do with religion. Think about it. What keeps the population of Earth under control. Religion and Government/Police. With the disclosure the UFO/ET information made public, belief in many of the worlds religion would collapse. Part of the reason people 'behave nicely' is because if you dont, you will burn in hell. Without religion/god, who are people to fear? The police?:rolleyes: Its all about control imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg6cGCAB2Ck

Re: Do you believe?
 

CrashandDie,

Have you read the demon haunted world by Carl Sagan? If not, you would probably enjoy it..

Re: Do you believe?
 

Speaking of Carl Sagan and others. I though these are a couple of beautiful tracks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=XGK8...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=vioZ...eature=related

Re: Do you believe?
 

If we were to have a televised first contact with them, I suppose Mr. Obama would be a pretty cool dude to represent us all.

Re: Do you believe?
 

Actually, the best scientific studies DO hide the observer as much as possible. Anything else taints the study.

None taken, and I did say I know what it wasn't-- or rather, they weren't.

If you had witnessed what I and several others in my old neighborhood did, you wouldn't be so dismissive though. I guarantee it. ;)

And as for things like Occam's Razor (ie, simple answer is usually best): it's a nice thing to quote and tends to get a good deal of resonance, but fails sometimes on scrutiny. Life for instance is so complex that invoking Occam's Razor on any aspect would be foolish.

Re: Do you believe?
 

haha! watching those makes me want to get out my Cosmos dvd box set! :D

Might do that this afternoon...

Re: Do you believe?
 

When is the last time you saw an anthropologist study a living people without living amongst them?

I agree though, lab experiments will always try to remain as pure as possible. The camera man uses that massive 600mm f/2 for a reason, as to not disturb, but this doesn't work when you're trying to understand how a people works. You have to be part of them to notice anything useful.

I am convinced I wouldn't be as dismissive. I can, however, also guarantee that my skeptic mind wouldn't accept it as proof that there are little grey beings analysing my every move. I do, however, willingly accept there are many things beyond our comprehension; how we attempt to interpret those signs, however, is a very, very personal choice. One that is, more than anything, a question of faith.

I have yet to see a situation where Occam's razor couldn't be applied. I have, however, seen more than one event where people weren't able to phrase the two correct choices to use Occam's razor with. Occam's razor is merely a philosophical tool; having the skills -- hindsight or insight to use -- comes back to accepting we are not all knowing, an have yet a lot to learn.

Just to make sure the thread gets locked, and the OP stops having a unilateral discussion, while not really reading what people are answering to him, I'll use this little flame bait.

Occam's razor:
- Did life evolve from unicellular beings to the men and women we are today, or,
- Did a supermagical creature create us all.

Hint: The choices aren't phrased correctly in this case, as neither are mutually exclusive.

Re: Do you believe?
 

I've experienced countless instances in my life where it doesn't work. Again, the complexity of life itself is one. Not the origins, but the mechanisms.

Like you say, though, it's a tool... and like any tool just cannot fit every attempt at use. Some things really are complex. Some conspiracies really are real, no matter how outlandish or in violation of Occam's Razor they may seem.

And I doubt there were any little grey beings in the things we saw flying, unless they have inertial dampeners. :D

Re: Do you believe?
 

I the absence of real physical evidence. The video, photographic and eyewitness testimony is very, very impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/user/LunaCogn.../6/X-RPWhigpQg

Re: Do you believe?
 

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/d...ti-monster.png

Let the flying spaghetti monster show us the one true path...

Re: Do you believe?
 

I think it's time for solid evidences, now with almost all people have mobile phones with quality cameras on it, we are waiting youtube videos on UFO, no more press talk.
I'm afraid aliens be afraid from the red light when i record a vedio on my N900, can we turn it off while recording?

Re: Do you believe?
 

Taken into account how large space is, how many stars (including countless planet orbiting those stars) there are, it is just a matter of statistics to know that we can't be a lone. Otherwise, it would be truely a waste of space.

Re: Do you believe?
 

Are there UFOs? Absolutely. If I fail to identify it, and it flies, and it's an object, then it's a UFO.

Re: Do you believe?
 

I wonder how the human race would react, if the governments of the world revealed we are being visted by extraterrestials and UFO's are real. Chaos or acceptance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SJXMBHByZY

Re: Do you believe?
 

I think most people will accept, as long as it's sung/said with an auto-tune :D

Re: Do you believe?
 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=917_1276963137

there is absolutely other life out there
and hawking recons new universes are born every second like bubbles in boiling water.

were all connected!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk

Re: Do you believe?
 

If governments would come clean on this and reveal they have proof, people will be divided: believers and non-believers. And among the believers there will be people who will try to get hold of the technology for their own benefit: to rule the world. I doubt that it will lead to anything good (from our side)...

And then I didn't even talk about the intentions of the visitors ;)

Re: Do you believe?
 

serious????????

Re: Do you believe?
 

I will.

Odds favor them being hostile. ;)

Re: Do you believe?
 

Just like us squashing ants in the backyard ;)

Re: Do you believe?
 

I believe...I can fly! I believe I can touch the sky!

lol...sorry

Jesse~

Re: Do you believe?
 

Hmmm, very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/user/uforepor...16/Bxr6sdhjsR8

Re: Do you believe?
 

Of course you can fly -- it's landing that's the hard part :)

Re: Do you believe?
 

so what is this?:
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/vid...snhp&gt1=42007

Re: Do you believe?
 

so do you think it's a UFO? ^^^

Re: Do you believe?
 

Unless someone can clearly identify it, then it's definitely and undeniably a UFO.

(Heh, seriously though, I think there's a huge amount of tech involved in whatever flying thing captured in that video. Personally, I think there's a much higher probability that it's secretly backed by one of the government/defence contractors than little green men.

Case in point, the blackbird had been in operation for about 10 years before images of it was publicly released and its existence confirmed.)

Re: Do you believe?
 

I believe that one was already debunked as a chinese experimental rocket test that went terribly wrong. This old school clip however.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQmbG...eature=related

Re: Do you believe?
 

@ysss, @Average Joe

Yes it looks like a true UFO and I really don't like the "experiment" idea, because that is what government tell us and want convince us, the thing in the video looks very sophisticated.

I reallly think it's time for us to get in touch with those green folks, i'm kinda bored from all human thing :rolleyes:

Re: Do you believe?
 

This and miracles. Who cares, in the long run? There may be all these amazing things out there, but normal life is amazing enough without all that. If you need stuff that's really trippy, study string theory or subatomic particles or something.

Re: Do you believe?
 

Yeah, that is amazing. I wouldn't have thought that extraterrestrials would like drums that much.

Seriously, I live in California and I've seen pretty amazing things headed for Vandenberg AFB. That upper atmosphere can do wonders.