Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Good afternoon, community members.

Due to the growth of the forum and growing complexity of managing problems, and in order to facilitate more consistent, timely, transparent and fair moderation, the administrators and moderators have been discussing a set of expanded rules and the usage of the built-in infraction system of the forum software to improve the t.m.o. experience.

The proposed draft of this policy follows, and is open to community discussion for a period of a week.

talk.maemo.org Rules

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talk.maemo.org has put the following rules in place for the message board to ensure enjoyment by all users. Our goal is to make sure these forums are a positive experience for everyone.

The establishment of these rules has been given much consideration by the talk.maemo.org staff, the Maemo Community Council, and feedback from long-time members, and is designed to foster and promote a healthy, helpful, and professional atmosphere in all of our forums. Anyone posting in the forums should be treated with respect and in a manner which will create an enjoyable experience for all.

Forum Rules

The following rules apply to any post, submission, or other type of communication a member makes in talk.maemo.org.

• No Abuse, Insults or Personal Attacks
  Abuse, insults and personal attacks directed at any member, person, or group are unacceptable. If you disagree with someone on some point, please do not resort to name calling or personal attacks; instead, argue the merits of their points. Please note that attacking people you perceive to be "trolls", "fanbois" or "flame baiters" still counts as a personal attack, and your posts will be removed as such.
  
  • Trolling example: "Just sell your N900 and get an iPhone 4!"
  • Flaming example: "Members with nothing to say should just shut up and leave this forum!"
  • Personal attack example: "You are an idiot."
  If you have trouble refraining from taking "bait", consider making use of the built-in ignore list functionality.
  
• No Foul Language
  The use of foul language is considered to be unacceptable. Filters have been added to censor offensive words. Members must not bypass the filters or swear in a different language.
• No Trolling
  A post that is solely intended to incite controversy or conflict, or cause annoyance or offense is considered "trolling". These posts will only lead to personal attacks and emotional outbursts from other members, which results in an unhealthy atmosphere.
• No Inappropriate or Illegal Material
  Do not post or add in your signature anything vulgar, inflammatory, pornographic, illegal, etc. Political and religious topics are considered inappropriate as well. Attaching, posting links to, or otherwise promoting pirated or illegal software is contrary to the purposes of the community and its forum
• No Business Advertising
  Creating threads, posts, or signatures that serve solely to promote your business (whatever that may be, personal blogs excluded) is not allowed. Maemo-specific services, products and software are allowed one active thread per major product, which is subject to the same rules that apply to other threads. Referral links and viral marketing are not allowed.
• No Cross-posting
  talk.maemo.org is divided into subforums by topic. Post into an existing thread on a subject (using the power search to find it), and when creating a new thread for a new subject, place it in the appropriate subforum. Posting the same comments more than once in a thread, or in more than one thread, is considered cross-posting, and is not appropriate. Please choose the single thread and forum in which your comments would be the most relevant, and post them in that thread only.
• No Spamming
  Threads that are not related to the forum's description, posts that are not related to the discussion, or posts made with the intention of bringing the user's post count up will be considered to be spam. An edit function is provided by the forum software and should be used to minimize multiple sequential posts.
• Respect Forum Moderators, Administrators and Members
  If you have any problems with any of the staff, please PM or email the Administrator(s). Attacking any forum staff will be considered as violating the "No abuse, insults or personal attacks" rule. talk.maemo.org is a gathering place for people of many ideas but a common goal (the use, development of, and promotion of Maemo-related devices and software) and disagreement with ideas is not an excuse to be disagreeable towards other community members.

Moderation

Although the administrators and moderators of talk.maemo.org will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither talk.maemo.org, maemo.org, nor Nokia will be held responsible for the content of any message.

If you have a problem or have caught someone you feel is in direct violation of these rules of talk.maemo.org, please contact an administrator or moderator with full details. The best way to contact a moderator to report a post is to click the on the "Report This" link that is found at the top of every post on these forums.

The staff of talk.maemo.org reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason. Posting material already removed previously by a moderator, or creating new threads or posts with the purpose of inquiring about deleted content, is inappropriate.

Signatures

• Signatures should only be in small or normal fonts (size 1 or 2).
• Singatures may only contain up to five lines of text (measured from a 1280 pixel width screen).
• Links in signature are allowed but you may not link to warez, porn, racist or other similar hate sites.

Avatars

• Avatars should follow the maximum avatar dimensions of the forum
• Avatars are subject to the same conditions as forum rules with respect to decency and so forth.

Infractions and Banning

talk.maemo.org runs an infraction system that lets moderators and administrators give infractions to misbehaving members. Infractions are represented in points -- more severe infractions equal more infraction points.

Infraction points accumulate / stack-up as well as expire. Misbehaving members accumulate infraction points and, depending on the total number the member has accumulated in a month, he/she can be banned for 1, 3, 7 or 30 days, or even forever. If a member is not permanently banned, infraction points expire within 30 days -- a member with 10 infraction points will be clean of infractions if he/she behaves for a month.

Infraction points will be given for misbehavior in public forum communications as well as for attacking other members in any other way within maemo.org, if it is reported. The following are the assigned infraction points for specific violations:

• Signature Rule Violation - 5
• Avatar Violation - 5
• Cross-posting - 5
• Inappropriate Language - 10
• Bypassing censored words - 10
• Inappropriate Material - 10
• Advertising/Referral Links - 10
• Flaming/Trolling - 15
• Bullying New Members - 15
• Personal Attack - 20
• Illegal Activity/Content - 20
• Spam Advertisements - 20
• Spam Post - 20
• Creating additional accounts with the intention of avoiding existing infraction penalties - 20
• SpamBot - 100

The following are the penalties given based on accumulated infraction points:

• 3 infractions not totaling 30 points - 1-day ban
• 30 points - 3-day suspension
• 40 points - 7-day suspension
• 50 points - 30-day suspension
• 100 points - Permanent Ban

If a member who has accumulated infraction points is proved to be posting on a second account (via IP address), the account with a higher number of posts will get the additional infraction, and the newer account will be banned permanently.

In certain situations, if a member is clearly not cooperating with the forum rules, the member as well as his/her IP address(es) will be banned permanently from the forum.

maemo.org Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Along with these rules, members should agree to and follow maemo.org's Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.

Addenda

talk.maemo.org reserves the right to update and modify these rules as the needs of the community dictate to ensure the smooth operation of this community.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

That could be read as being considerate and helpful depending on what post it was responding to.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Just out of curiosity, am I reading this the right way if I get the impression that bible quotes and creationistic agenda pieces in signatures are to be seen as inappropriate?

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

What is, or where can I find the definition of, "Bypassing censored words?"

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Shouldn't the Terms of Use/Privacy Policy be updated?

As currently written, they give people the false impression that this is a Nokia run site:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=199

And there are Contribution Guidelines under Legal that should also be referenced.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

I don't think there are bible quotes that are racist or hateful. ;)

It's when you post something and it appears as '****' and then you re-edit it and become creative like putting d-a-s-h-e-s so it bypasses the censoring system.

I agree, it should be updated. But since TMO is under maemo.org, it should follow its terms.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

I took that as more if someone is critcizing the N900 that, the sell X to buy Y is not an appropriate response. Of course all moderations will have to be done via context.

And from my experiences (on both sides of the coin) IP banning is pointless. There are so many ways to get around it, so unless there's a system that requires new posters to wait a week. Or maybe have their first ten posts manually approved the only thing that will happen is new accounts being made over and over.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Yes, it can be quite challenging. You don't want to get permanently banned however since your IP(s) go to a central spammer database that thousands of other forums use. And of course, there is also the 'Creating multiple accounts' infraction.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Can we have a rule to prevent power posting?
ie a post with just a smiley just to get the post count up

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Quoted from original post:
And I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not since there are lots of racist and hateful parts in the bible.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

What about when a post is reported and is ignored or no explanation given for the ignoring of the reported post by a moderator?.
Should be always a reason given if no action taken against a reported post.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

What about private messages?
Do any of these rules extend to pm's??

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

These policies seem designed to protect Nokia and maximize the power of moderators. Since we know that both are beyond reproach, these goals are entirely appropriate.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Such a fascist hoopla for nothing. Actually i've never ever encountered any foul language, attacks, insults or any other neatly listed issue here at TMO. My biggest concern is the tricky trolling and fanboyism.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

From OP:I interpret this as covering PMs too.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Fascist? Really? Did you look up the word "fascist" before making your comment?

Rules aren't "fascist" per definition, as you are implying.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

I like this idea. You could even take it a step further by giving a few rotating community members "mentor" status and be assigned new posters. Their job would be not only to manually approve the new poster's initial 10 or so posts, but also to provide helpful feedback on what is an isn't an appropriate question/comment.

So a new poster tries to post a question thats been answered 10 thousand times before, and the "mentor" would kindly direct that user towards the search. That would make the community seem 10 times nicer since we wouldn't be jumping all over new posters while simultaneously making smarter forum-goers.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

And, this coming from someone who had to bear with an IP rotation ISP for a couple of years, it can be pretty harmful, too.

You wouldn't want to know how many forums "I" was banned from just because some total stranger - who happened to have been yesterday's owner of my current IP address - had misbehaved.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

I disagree. Posting Nokia should do this, and Nokia sux and whatever they post has got me tired. They are not saying do not post against Nokia. They are just saying go annoy them in their forums. Perfectly reasonable.

You mean to tell me you are not seriously tired of seeing the same useless threads over and over again?

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

There is no universal definition of this term, so i think your interpretation is rather biased.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

As a moderator on another forum i agree that IP bans do not work.
Short term user name bans seem to work which can lead to a permanent ban for repeated infractions. I assume mods have access to IP logs and can see where new members are coming from. (ie banned users trying to return)

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_(epithet)

Hmmmm... outside of the formal definition, this term may easily be interpreted as an insult...

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

As it should: Spam, personal attacks, and what have you can and are communicated over PM and this should also not be considered appropriate.

Now before some self appointed forum lawyer starts spouting off about private communications and what not, please understand this: Moderators usually do not have access to others PM's and an administrator will not grant that access unless a member specifically requests them to because they are receiving SPAM, or BS via PM.

A bunch of neo nazi, pro life, bible thumpin'. Pygmy Eskimo members can have all the private conversations they want between themselves. Their plans to rule the world and impromptu circle jerks can go on undisturbed unless someone reports them. Someone else can not report them unless they received an unwanted PM inviting them to participate or attacking them for not.

@ Flandry:

At this time... this is a good thing.

It is a shame that our previous self control is no longer effective and this task must now be undertaken.
Sadly, at this time I believe it is unavoidable.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Ok, fascistoid any better? What is the punishment for posting without searching first?

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

True, context is important. Moderators will take it into consideration.

Actually, you can find some in the Old Testament. And even harmless phrases can be harmful in certain contexts.

So in the end, sometimes we have to exercise human judgment.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Perhaps (probably?) I am missing something but in what context would there even be some benefit to someone "power posting" on T.M.O.? There aren't any benefits to higher post counts that I can think of.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

In response to several comments past and future: obviously these are guidelines and will not be enforced to the letter every moment of everyday. Not only is that not practical but it's not desirable as there will always be some judgement involved and the idea is to promote a constructive environment, not to make everyone move in lockstep (or goose-step as some like to claim any time a hint of order is maintained by "artificial" means).

The point is to clarify what is and isn't appropriate so that the proper response can be determined by any moderator, thus enabling a team of moderators to act more consistently and with less overhead (overhead which you don't see because it is mulled over in the moderator forum). For this, a more detailed policy is needed than has existed, and this is it.

That's covered under "spamming".

I think he thought you were referring to a different clause. Signatures are subject to the same guidelines as forum posts--all communications on t.m.o. are covered--and therefore signatures that are inflammatory or offensive are indeed subject to moderation. The source of a quote doesn't inherently make it anything, however.


Edit: Texrat covered this already. :D
Regarding post count: it does contribute to "Karma". Never underestimate the ability of people to derive pleasure from the strangest of statistics, either.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

I don't know about smileys, but as far as I know t.m.o has a minimum word limit when posting. I think it's ten. I once tried to post "Good luck" in a thread (not to get my post count up..I was just wishing him luck :)) and it wouldn't let me. So smileys only shouldn't be possible..I think.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Is the limit restricted to an original post or does the word count include a quote?
I will test it and see.
Personally I'm against minimum word counts precisely for the reason you mention

edit: tested and it does not include the quote.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

:) :) :) :) :)

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Good to hear this sort of thing is being considered.

While it is never nice to regulate what should be common-sense, this is unfortunately not always possible

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

This policy reeks of "Zero Tolerance".

---------------------------

On a separate thought, I have some input. These generalities occur on all forums, not just this one. (In fact the most striking example would be any thread on remote-exploit)

I'm of the opinion that worse than "trolling" is "rebuttal trolling" (in some cases would be called flaming). I consider this to be the worst aspect (and quite prevalent) of forums.

Let me demonstrate:
n00b: How do I use xterm?
backseatmoderator: Use the search function!

Many "respected" members of a forum, many of which have an elite attitude and continually refer to being among the first to join a forum decide to pick on a newcomer for asking what they perceive to be a stupid question, against their ideology, answered in an archived thread, etc. This member is often a moderator or at least thinks they are.

This comment then leads to several outcomes none of which are in the best interest of the forum. A flame war may break out, the thread is locked, users are banned, etc. All of these outcomes are short-term.

But there is a worse crime that comes out of this. A long-term problem...

It pollutes the search results.

Not only does this then recreate the cycle of "use the search function" leading to either a reply to a "dead" thread sparking a "this thread is 10 years old *closes thread* go start a new one" which is both ignorant and a pointless on the part of the moderator. Or the n00b creates a new thread yielding a "dupe thread" or "answered in another thread" or etc.

But more importantly these thread titles show up as on the first page of any relevant Google search query.

Thus I have to say, do not just be respectful of your peers but also respect those not from this forum who years later have to read your petty squabble.

-------------------------------------

Another thought (and I am following my own advise as you can see)

Some forums prevent users from replying to themselves. While this problematic (a dev can't bump a thread with updates). It will curb spambots/spammers, I cite pretty much every spam message I've seen here. They tend to leave 3 identical replies on a thread. This will force people to use the Edit feature of this forum. It will also prevent instances such as asdf_uk from polluting a thread.

It will also support my previous suggestion as by feeding the trolls with this applied, those who feed the trolls will have no excuses and can be punished accordingly (they should be sent a stern "Please stop flaming" PM with the existing rules). PM to me is not Private Message it's Polluting Message (as in use a PM so as to not pollute the forums)

I don't know what you people use these forums for but I use them for exchanging information - learning and teaching.

I leave you with this: These rules need to be applied towards moderators as well, I see all too often an abuse of position (also tons of perceived position where none exists). I could quote "Who watches the Watchmen" or "With greater power comes great responsibility" but when it comes down to it, when a moderator is acting out of line, [temporarily] strip them of their power and put them in time out.

EDIT: I would like to point out, that I do not think I am a moderator and I know that no one takes me seriously. But I think the above post is something you should all think about before you post.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Maybe it is something like A**le, iP***e, L*ber*y, Fr**dom of Sp**ch.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

excellent. I might come back here after all...

e:
this is probably considered when needed. just look at most common swear words in dictionaries.for example in sweden 17 pronounced is a swear word ;)

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Welcome back - one of the few voices of common-sense round here!

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

For me this is the core point why these rules should be taken into use asap. We don't want all the people who post useful/meaningful/helpful/constructive things to disappear from this forum. And those people have been disappearing from this forum in increasing numbers. Or their posts just disappear into the noise, same difference.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with occasional flame war and difference in opinions but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Afaik all reported posts are reviewed. Sometimes a PM is more than enough, do you really want public action every time?

Some threads seem more like chatter than discussion, if that would stop most of the issues we have at the moment would be gone.

These forum guidelines/this policy is common sense but it happens to be hard for some people to not to troll or not to use bad language. These guidelines are written down at many forums I know.

To have post by new members moderated all the time would be a lot of work, instead having people not being able to start new posts in some sections till they have 5/10 posts and only have new threads in those sections (general, community, N900, Fremantle) moderated is a good idea from my pov.

What I notice quiet often lately is complaints about moderators in posts.
Most of the time it is not a moderator cause I would point the guy to the search results (proper links) or merge the thread to the right one right away. Please make moderators aware of such posting by "Reporting" the post and you may also answer the question asked so we could just delete the "search for it" post and close the thread as solved or merge it to the right place.

Are you sure you talk about moderators?
Few days ago I closed a thread cause someone necroed it by hijacking it. I asked to not do so and closed the thread for now but telling that I open it any time when needed for the actual topic. I still think that is the right decision in any case someone hijacks and necros at the same time. In other forums necroism is unwanted but I guess this is not the same here. Answering 3 month old questions is still an answer or a topic that wasn't the least bit interesting might get interesting 3 month after the first post.

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Hi Flandry,

I understand the reason for this. It's very important. But I had to admit, I have myself 2 total seperate accounts here at maemo.org. (this one and a other one)

The other account is total seperated from this one and I use it to publish software to Extra Devel with my real name and to write announcements and to do the support here about my private projects.
I do this because I want to write here as a private person with my private opinion. My employer (it's not Nokia) should not know about my private activities here. But my Boss knows about my published software (he use it also) and therefore about my other nickname with my real name.

I want to travel and contribute incognito here at t.m.o. and want to have anyway the possibility to publish software with my real name and contact data.

Is this okay whilst I don't follow the same activities with the different accounts? (voting for software at example or writing at the same topics)

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

Not sure if its been posted, but how do we know the number of points we have accumilated at any one time and can the number be made visible in the usercp or even under their name? :)

Re: Community input for new t.m.o. policy
 

I'm sure... Nobody wants highscore catcher. ;)