[Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

The Maemo Community Council raised with Nokia the issue that upgrading to Maemo 5 PR1.2 forces the user to subscribe, via SMS, to the "MyNokia" service. The user has no ability to opt-out: it's either subscribe or don't use the device.

Nokia have, to their credit, engaged in the bug report about this, #10366, and have also sent us an official response:

“Nokia Corporation respects applicable laws and regulations and has carefully reviewed the content in your mail. The latest Nokia devices are no longer traditional mobile phones. Instead they are mobile computers that include sophisticated services such as messaging, games, as well as capability to access online services, download applications, take pictures and video as well as to process text. Such devices should be seen more as portable computers with phone functionality rather than traditional mobile phones mainly capable making a phone call. N900 belongs to this category of mobile computers.

The first use of the latest software for Nokia mobile computers include functionality preparing the device for the service use on behalf of the consumer. In this connection Nokia also provides the consumer with the possibility to receive support messages to assist the consumer get the most out of the purchased Nokia mobile computer. These messages include tips on the capabilities and features of the Nokia devices and available services and features. We believe that these support messages are for the benefit of the consumer and help those consumers who are not yet fully aware of the possibilities their devices offer to make the most out of their purchase.

Nokia informs the user about this support feature and the cost of the SMS on the cover of the sales box and in the Nokia device user interface through the terms and conditions. Any personal information (including any information in the SMS) needed for the service is dealt with in accordance with Nokia's privacy policy available at http://www.nokia.com/privacy-policy.

We have not found any grounds to assume that the My Nokia service would in any way breach the UK Computer Misuse Act, which is 'An Act to make provision for securing computer material against unauthorised access or modification; and for connected purposes'. Please provide further information if you feel a more detailed analysis is needed.

In case you wish to know what personal data we hold about you or you wish to replenish, rectify, anonymize or delete any incomplete, incorrect or outdated personal data, or you wish us to cease processing your personal data for the purpose of sending promotional materials or direct marketing or for the performance of market research or on other compelling legal grounds, you may, as appropriate and in accordance with applicable law, exercise such rights by contacting us through the contact points referred to in Nokia’s privacy policy.”

Obviously, there's a lot of disappointment in this response; although - to be fair - Quim Gil is going to raise the issue of a missing opt-out function through the Fremantle programme.

The community has investigated several ways of trying to avoid the issue, with the most promising being Graham Cobb's notmynokia. This tool, in Extras-devel, can be installed on a PR1.1 device before reflashing, or in-place upgrade, to PR1.2 and will trick the system into thinking you've already accepted the service.

The council recommends that anyone who does not want to send their personal information to Nokia investigate this tool. More background is also available on the wiki page, "PR1.2 compulsory MyNokia subscription".



Link: Original article.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Duh, what next... a remote kill/install switch ? :-)

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

That comes after the joint venture with Google.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

My N900 didn't need to send a SMS to Nokia to prepare the device when I first got it, why does it need to with PR 1.2?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

i would like nokia to delete all my personal data, and give me the money i lost when they conned me into buying a half baked N97, and some form of compensation for all the work i lose due to N900 email not refreshing, ten grand would do it!

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

how can you tell wether the n900 sent sms or not, cos there is no log on my phone of it sending sms.

if thats true maybe nokia should reimberse us the amount it cost to send the sms no matter how big or small the fee.isnt it bad enough we have to pay for the device now they are squeezing more out of us for stupid sms's. what next microchip in your hand so the phone can work?
sound like nokia is part of the illuminati's new world order plan to enslave us all. if thats the case might as well stick with the 3100.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

BTW: who wrote this answer? anyone we know? did you not publish his/her name because you're polite and want to protect this person? - or did nokia choose to have some random customer care agent answer the question of the maemo community council?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Quim acted as the point of contact; but he didn't write it (AFAIK). It wasn't Nokia Customer Care; and we didn't email the help desk.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

There's two flaws in this:

a) When I purchased my N900, I didn't see the original Nokia box. My carrier (A1 in Austria) puts devices they sell in their shops in A1-branded boxes. They all look the same, Nokia, HTC, RIM, you cannot tell from the cover. Of course such a generic box doesn't tell anything about the forced registration at a Nokia service.

b) It is not enough to inform the user. These are unusual terms and conditions that a consumer must explicitly accept. There is no place in the "Nokia device user interface" where a user could accept these terms and conditions. (Reading them doesn't mean accepting them.)

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Your points are well-taken, and in fact you will get no argument from the council. We will challenge statements such as that as far and hard as we can... but to be honest I don't expect much of a retreat off that stance.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

not any more now, no. to be honest, i was foolish enough to expect some serious apology and a fix when the issue was first made public. i really thought it was something they hadn't realized... something none of the nokians we know would have allowed to happen had they been asked. man, i was an idiot to trust them, wasn't i? in the end, they're only marketing people.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Another round of showing no care for their paying customers. Seems like it's not just their production they moved to low-wage countries.

But, hey, I was one of those who were especially lucky. I was in a foreign country when PR 1.2 hit me - and we all know how "cheap" roaming fees are... :)

Nevertheless, big thanks to the Council for at least squeezing a reply out of Nokia, even if this is most definitely not the reply we were hoping for.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

What is the reason for Nokia being so uptight about the myNokia issue? At this juncture, don;t they need to befriend as many users as possible?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

which (in my case) translates to:

i receive messages in random intervals announcing updates for my n900 when no updates are available. these messages contain a url i should visit for more information. following this link results in a 404-error.

so: false information and a link to a website that doesn't even exist are for the benefit of the consumer and help those who aren't yet fully aware of nokia's competence?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

The mobile comoputer argument is simply BS. Every single OS I installed on my computers be it Windows, OSX or ommercial linux distribution like Red Hat and Mandriva always gave me the choice on wheter or not I wanted to register for support and other notifications. So no, the N900 being considered a mobile computer doesn't give Nokia the right to do whatever they want with my personal informations. Hell when I had my N82 Black Edition, I had to register my phone to be able to get the MyNokia service.... What happened?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

The answer from Nokia is BS and simply wrong, so in my opinion they are lying to you.

I just got my N900-Box, there is no information at all about MyNokia, not on the box and not in the quickstart-guide. I also found the N97-Box: not one word on the box, but an ad in the guide. The text is formulated that you CAN register, but you don't have to. We all now this is not true, neither with Maemo nor with Symbian (where they started this crap...).

I can also confirm that you pay for this SMS, also for the one you have to send to unregister. Everytime you make an system-update or you have to reflash. Always the same, you pay two SMS. I know this because I flashed once with a Prepaid...

So, if you go to Nokia for a clearer answer, please tell them it's a REALLY bad idea to lie to your customers.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

We have really stressed the point about failing goodwill. Hopefully that resonates with the right persons.

I do expect some action on this, but it *may* be no more than an update that allows the user to opt-out. I won't be surprised if Nokia PR stubbornly sticks to the legal boilerplate. Disappointed though.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Nokia's PR seems to be completely failing at its job. I mean, if their duty was to make Nokia look bad, they're doing an ace job.

On the other hand, that stupid MyNokia crap cost me $0.60 (since I don't have an SMS plan.)

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Is it safe to ask what response would have been satisfactory from Nokia?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

An apology and acknowledgment that they shouldn't have done it, and won't do it again in the future (then actually following through?)

I think that would have sufficed for most people.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I like N900. I don't like Nokia.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Why do you need an app to disable it when you can just remove your sim card lol?
I would just to make sure.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

The key thing here is that:
- You should not have to pull your sim card during an upgrade
- You should have an opt out of any services
- Nokia should not be sending SMSes without permission

Pulling your sim card out is simply dodging the issue.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Look harder, it's there. On the back of the N900 box, it says that "This is an OVI device" and registration by SMS is mandatory. I have added this to the bug in bugzilla, (with some comments).

IMO:

a) Putting it on the box means nothing. When purchasing the N900, you don't have access to the box, especially if ordered.

b) Branded N900 have custom boxes.

c) The box suggests that registration is mandatory for OVI, not using/updating the device, and especially without prompt. It also says NOTHING about contents of SMS.

d) Just because you see a warning, doesn't mean you agreed with it. They aren't the owners of the device. We are. And if some joker puts up a sign on my door that says "if you come in, I'll shoot", I expect to be able to come in, since it's MY HOUSE.

e) Nokia has no right to enforce an agreement I didn't sign into. I should be given the option and I should be responsible for my actions.

f) I said it before, I'll say it again. One of these days, I'm gonna pick up a brick and write on it: "By accepting the brick through your window, you accept all responsibility ..." and throw it over.

g) So it's on the box. I didn't notice it until the bug report said it's there. Is it legal? Really? If we are in a legal contract, then both parties have equal rights. How about I write something on the box? Get a marker, and write "No" in red. Hey, it's on the box.

No matter. One more boot in the behinds of people who believe in Nokia enough to shell a small fortune for an unfinished, beta device, just because of the logo. Exactly the people you should be kicking.

Well, good for you, I say. Some companies lost their advantage by change, market variation, bad competition, and downright illegal action and public lies. A true shame. Others deserve every inch.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Got my n900 back in December. No such statement anywhere on the box or manuals. Must be a new addition.

Whats in "OVI" for the n900 anyway, like 2 games and Firefox. That's when it's working. :rolleyes:

I agree with everything you said mate.

This whole mobile computer thing is annoying too, Well then why did I lose further updating to my "mobile computer" only 6 months after i bought it? That's definitely a phone thing. not a mobile computer trait. :rolleyes:

I don't get it? All it needed was one move to make everyone happy. Officially support Meego for n900. You're making the damn OS for a gazillion netbooks, platforms, mobiles and god knows what. What difference is one more device gonna make. Except make a lot of people happy :rolleyes:

You can upgrade a 3 year old iphone to iOS4. sure it won't get all the features. but you CAN. and people ask why there are so many apple fanboys :D

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Maybe the council (or, why not someone else) could ask for an opinion from the European data protection supervisor about the legal standing of this issue in the European Union (With a well formulated explanation of what the issue is about). The privacy laws come from an EU directive and this issue spans the whole EU.

The small text on the product packaging is, at least on my box bought from Finland, written in English only so Nokia trying to cover behind that is invalid in any non-english speaking country.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Ups, you're right... I could even decipher it after I finally found my reading glasses (which I usually don't need those days) :rolleyes:

And: it's in english, which is not a official language in Switzerland. If I remember correctly, informations on a product must be printed in all three languages so that they count.

Also, the few words about OVI are mentioned in a paragraph which deals with copyrights. I don't expect to have to read this to find informations which are important for me.

So my conclusion: illegal in Switzerland. And I suppose in EU also.

Perhaps you should ask for an answer from their legal department and not from marketing?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Barely. Half of all netbooks are out of the game thanks to the list of chipsets not supported.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

So much for the future Meego "environment" devices :rolleyes:

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

"This answer (and the service itself) has been checked by the Nokia Legal team, including lawyers aware of the UK legislation. It's [they] who defend that the service, even with the usability flaws, is legal."

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

December 2nd the box arrived, IIRC. Release for Romania was scheduled for Dec 15th, but hey, when you have people with 600-1200E burning a hole in their pocket, things have a way of working themselves out. And yes, I got it legally, box and invoice. No, there isn't a mugged German in Koln still crying himself to sleep.

The fruit annoys me to no end, I generally dislike user bases that claim to be completely superior. Nothing is completely superior to anything else. I can't use an iPhone to nail a picture to the wall. So, the rock wins.

However, I always admired the fact that they understood the basics perfectly, it's like they actually read those development guidelines. Backwards compatible, at least one standard that Just Works natively, uniform UI, generally finished work.

Technically? Illegal in all countries that's not English-speaking. Also, under-age. Also, unsigned, non-agreed-by-both-parties agreement. Also, unsigned. So, probably so. At least here, scribbling stuff on a box doesn't even amount to verbal agreement. My box was delivered, and contained in a black plastic bag.

Will that change anything? No. "Legal" doesn't count until sued. Who here will sue Nokia Corp over an SMS? Well? There you go.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

From Nokia's Privacy Policy:

"We collect your personal data typically when you make a purchase, use or register into our services, enter into a sales promotion or a campaign or otherwise interact with us. We endeavor to collect personal data only with your knowledge or consent. Below are examples of the categories of data collected"

Hmmmm. I suppose that since they said "We're sending an sms" they covered the "Knowledge" part. But consent, not so much.

Perphas we can call it. "Agressive Practices". Since in essence, if I don't agree to this, I cannot use the device, right? Aggressive Practices are illegal in EU consumer protection Laws.
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/citize...mm_prac_en.htm

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I would tend to think that their definition of legal is:

A single person couldn't afford the lawsuit, and we have deemed the chance that our customers would file a class action lawsuit (or be able to afford it / get it together / etc) so low that we aren't worried about it. Therefore, since we aren't worried about it being challenged, we'll call it "legal".

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Well, here's for you people who have a different box or don't have perfect eyesight as required by Nokia's legal:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_FCBr8WhLe3I/TC...4/DSC08743.jpg

The image should be at 10 MPx (but Picasa smooshed it). Minor editing with a trial software was used to enhance contrast. No changes to content.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Well that's it then. They are right and we were wrong. Shame on us.

I'll be caught dead before recommending a Nokia handset to anyone. ever. N-who? :rolleyes:

But then again. what difference can i make. :p

How hard was it really. to do something like this? How lazy can they get with the n900? It's ridiculous:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j66/utrx/2-1.jpg

Yup keep giving love to them Cs and #### since they're the pride of your market share. Just pull out of the hign-end then and get it over with :D

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

There's several aspects top this issue. One of them is if what's printed on the box (in a foreign language, hidden under the carrier's custom box, making a reference to Ovi instead of MyNokia and claiming that you'll need to register, not that the device itself will "register") is enough to make all of this legal. - I doubt it, but it'll come down to who pays more for the lawyers.

The other issue is a matter of trust and the image it creates. One of the assets Nokia had was that they did not, as Apple or Google, enforce anything on their customer's devices. That was true for Nokia, but even more so for Maemo devices.

They threw that asset away for nothing. There's nobody who benefits from these MyNokia messages. (Except the carriers maybe.) Consumers get wrong information and are pointed to non-existent websites, and Nokia probably doesn't gather information that's really useful either. So why do it? And even worse, why be so stubborn to continue with this farce, making up annoyingly embarrassing things like "The device is a mobile computer because it can take pictures, therefore you need to receive our text messages"? What???

It's the issue of trust, of who owns my device and who controls it that's important to me. Even if 100 Nokia-lawyers tell me it's legal what they do: That won't re-earn them my trust. From now on, it seems we'll have to hack our own devices so that we can really own them.

What was it I was trying to say with this post? Oh... don't let them involve you in legal battles. It doesn't matter if it's legal. All that matters is if it's right.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I'm not ranting on behalf of the council here; this is solely my opinion as an N900 user, electronics geek and consumer advocate.

I'm with benny1967. And I'm frankly tired of companies in general hiding behind legal boilerplate and asserting, "look, we're covered, so we did nothing wrong."

What makes a functional society are the little things we do that go above and beyond legal allowances. Goodwill in this case means protecting the customer from legalese and providing a delightful, not just tolerable, experience.

The kneejerk boilerplate defense has been a growing thorn in my side and I'm not going to go silent on it. Nokia has heard about it and they'll hear more until someone either GETS IT or I/we give up in frustration.

And I'm a pretty stubborn you-know-what.

As a Nokia employee I fought hard internally for customer quality with some successes (believe it or not, the N800 was one) and some failures. That's simply because I loved the company culture and products and realized Nokia has so much potential that they waste by getting stuck on the letter of the law. Either this is fixed at the executive level, or they realize in a few years just how stupidly they handed over success to competitors.

/rant

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

They (sneakily?) don't log the outgoing SMSes in the normal database accessible via Conversations on the device. But if your carrier gives you web access to an SMS log you can see it there.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

This thread would violate the proposed t.m.o policy:
Lucky that the policy is not in force yet.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

My box doesn't show this at all. There's nothing about SMS.