fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900 [solved]
 

[Edit: this has been solved and is no longer a problem.]

There seems to be a fatal flaw in the N900! Please help me figure out how I can avoid having to return my N900.

I keep having an error on boot-up where, after the Nokia logo comes and goes, the flashing dot sequence continues indefinitely, for hours; boot-up is never completed. The N900 becomes unusable. While in this state, if I try:
- tapping on/off button: flashing dots pause for a moment, then continue flashing forever as before
- holding on/off button: device switches off; but when I switch it back on, after the Nokia logo we're back to the forever flashing dots
- taking out the battery and replacing: same as holding on/off button

There is no problem with "lock screen and keys": screen turns off, N900 looks just like it's off, etc. except it will still accept phone calls, etc., and I can "turn it back on" (I guess the correct term is "unlock screen and keys") and it works. But after I've used a new N900 for a few days, if I actually turn it off (hold on/off button until device powers down), then I get this problem on boot-up.

I tried to avoid turning it off/on, but there were a few times when I had to reboot:
- sometimes installing certain applications (like BlessN900) requires a reboot
- the system becomes unstable: it responds more and more slowly (at times taking 30 seconds to respond to a tap), or the Settings program will spit out some error message and refuse to edit profiles
- the N900 is designed that, to insert/remove a SIM card, I have to take out the battery, forcing a reboot. (With the N900 so unreliable, I need to insert/remove the SIM to make calls with an old cell phone.)

This is what I've tried:
- returned the N900 to the store for a refund, got another N900 (both were brand new). This boot-up error occurred with both devices.
- updating the firmware to Maemo 5 PR 1.2, via Internet. The error still occurred.
- flashing the firmware

When the N900 goes into this "forever dots" state, there is only one thing I've found which can make it usable again: I have to flash the firmware and the "eMMC" image (I think this is the 25GB memory). (It's not enough just to flash the firmware.) The N900 does respond to putting it into "USB flashing mode" (where you connect via USB to the computer while pressing the 'u' key), and flashing firmware+eMMC results in a blank device, for which the data has to be restored. With my first N900 I did not know how to do this, and had to return it to the store. With my second N900, I have had to flash to overcome this error about 4 times (in the past month).

Unfortunately, this means that when the N900 goes "forever dots" on me, I can't do anything until I can hook it up to my computer with a flasher program, firmware image and eMMC image. It's a bit scary to think that, if my car breaks down on a deserted highway (I commute 90 minutes to work), I might not be able to call for help because my N900 has decided to go into infinite booting. It would defeat the purpose of having a lightweight handheld computer like the N900 if I always have to lug around my laptop so I can flash firmware+eMMC and then restore my contacts list so I can call for help. Thus far I've taken to carrying my old phone around, a Treo 650 --which, by the way, has a hardware reset button that breaks out of any infinite loops. I hope Nokia puts one into their phones in the future.

So, unless I can resolve this problem, I find that I cannot rely on the N900 for a phone. In that case I might as well buy a much cheaper Internet tablet without phone capabilities, or just stick with my aging Treo. The deadline for returning my N900 to the store is coming up in 2 days, and I hope some of the readers here can come up with some insight before I am forced to refund what would otherwise be a very powerful and versatile device because of a bug in the operating system.

Some notes:
- I did not install any software other than from repositories already enabled by default (that is, no extras-devel or extras-testing).
- I tried to isolate which software might be causing the error, by installing/not installing various combinations of software. In particular, I heard that Catorize would trigger a bug when the applications menu was not a flat structure, but the error still occurred without Catorize present.
- this does not seem to be the same error mentioned on other threads where, after the N900 is finished booting up, it reboots. Apparently that error was resolved with the newest version of the firmware.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

You must be very unlucky if this happened to you twice. After flashing are you reinstalling your previous software? Maybe one of them is causing this. And try booting without a microsd. Try flashing with different versions of PR 1.2 (global, UK etc)

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Are you sure you haven't enabled extras testing or devel because if you have tried BlessN900 you have them enabled. If you have enabled either of them maybe something from there is causing your broblems.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Get another one while you can, if you encounter the same problems the problem lies between the chair and the N900!

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

sounds like you have something installed that causes this, if not then have you transferred any media to it that may contain a virus although its linux rather than windows or mac a virus targeted at them can cause random problems for you so either scan all your media that you transferred and all the emails or remove all downloads that aren't from the stock catalogs.
if it is down to a virus you got then you'll have to re flash, make sure you use upto date os and emmc

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Do you use a SIM?

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Some of the other members of the #maemo IRC channel also said that it was my fault that two of the N900's went into an infinite loop on boot-up, but we couldn't figure out exactly what I was doing to cause this. If you could help figure this out, it would show that you're not just posting unhelpful comments here.

These are the possibilities I thought of:
- Is it because I'm installing weird software? Three times out of four, I did not enable any new repositories, but I guess it could be that software that has gone through extras-devel, promoted to extras-testing, and has had enough votes to go to just plain extras, could still have some weird bug. (One time the error triggered because I enabled extras-devel to install BlessN900, but that time there had been no system slowdown or weird error messages.)
- Is it because of a bad SIM card? Forum members said that this was next to impossible (to have this error, not to have a bad SIM card)
- Is it because of a bad microSD card? Forum members said that this was next to impossible (to have this error, not to have a bad microSD card)
- Is it because I created a symlink from ~/ to ~/MyDocs/.documents? "~/" is on a Linux filesystem (ext3 or ext2 or whatever) while ~/MyDocs/.documents is on vfat, so maybe that blew it up. But if I recall correctly, the error happened even without the symlink.

Any advice would be appreciated.

@MiK546: I did not enable extras-testing/extras-devel out of fear, but the error happened nonetheless.

After a while I got sick and tired of not installing anything out of fear, and decided to do it. As far as I can tell, it doesn't make a difference whether or not I enable extras-devel/testing. (Btw, I immediately disabled extras-devel/testing to make sure nothing stable would get accidentally updated to a newer, buggier version.) I think BlessN900 is extras-testing, not extras-devel. I also installed Midnight Commander, which is essential for browsing and retrieving files over ssh; MohammedAG says it's rock-solid stable, and I believe him.

@Matthew Maude: I, too, suspect something installed but can't tell what it is. All the files I transferred to the device were backups from the device. I don't have any downloads that "aren't from the stock catalogs", as I had mentioned. It seems rather unlikely that a virus would have gotten onto my Kubuntu system and then transferred onto the N900 (which doesn't even use a x86 processor), but I had already followed your suggestion of "you'll have to re flash, make sure you use upto date os and emmc" several times, as I noted in my previous posting.

@YoDude: Yes, I do use a SIM. Do you think it could be because of a bad SIM card? I have been using the same SIM in my old phone for about six years now; I'm not sure I want to change it because I would have to change my phone number (among other hassles that outweigh the disadvantage of just not using a N900).

@pantera1989: Thanks for the suggestions. This is probably the most helpful reply so far. On reflection, it is conceivable that it's the MicroSD, since:
- if the bootup sequence involved checking something about the MicroSD, an error might launch it into an infinite loop
- if this problem occurs, it's easy to remove the microSD card; unlike the SIM card, I don't have to remove the battery to remove the microSD card
- I'll try flashing different versions of PR 1.2, although chances of success are slim. When I tried to flash just the firmware, the problem remained; I had to flash the eMMC also in order to get a working system again, so I think the problem is not in the firmware. But it's worth trying.

I guess my point is that I don't think it's just luck. It looks like there's a problem inherent in the N900. Other forum members have told me that they have been using the N900 for a long time with no problems, but that doesn't really help me. Even if I'm able to use the N900 from now on with no problems, until I can figure out what caused the problem I cannot rely on it: my phone might go wonky on me at any time, and in this day and age of relying on cell phones, this is not an acceptable situation.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

You can get a new SIM card from you network operator and your number won't change.

Try taking the SIM card out (and memory card) and booting the tablet up, you can use it fully (minus making phone calls) without it.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

@KWTM, there is a guy on nokia's maemo forum called cpitchford who has a debug program you can run then email him the results i don't have a link but if you ask on there he might be able to help and hes a linux genius so it could be your best option

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

What JD4200 said:

Run it without the SIM or the MMC.

The dot state is when the device is loading drivers and whatnot, seeing what resources are available, and preparing for how it expects to be used.

I do not know if in this state it is querring the phone network and waiting for an answer that might not come or it if it is reading the MMC and gets hung up there...

Try it sans SIM and MMC. If you're now good to go, add the SIM, [if/then] yadda yadda yadda...

EDIT: I just saw this:

Definitely loose the symlink too! Add that last in your [if/then] trials. :)

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Why not reflashing eMMC and Memory card and OS. This way you will see if the device is booting okay. It's either your eMMC got some unstable apps or something in the MicroSD causing it.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

@YoDude:

Do you use a SIM?

Yes, I do use a SIM. Do you think it could be because of a bad SIM card? I have been using the same SIM in my old phone for about six years now; I'm not sure I want to change it because I would have to change my phone number (among other hassles that outweigh the disadvantage of just not using a N900).

you can get a replacement SIM from your operator if you are on contract it should be free i recommend it i upgrade my SIM once a year

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Forget about a new sim card, that advice will not solve your issue, the N900 will just tell you the sim card is dead and continue booting. It's completely unrelated.

Flash your phone and do not make any modifications to it. None. Do not be tempted, just flash back to factory default. rootfs & eMMC. Don't try to restore any backups, nothing. Factory. Default.

Once you've done that, use the phone for a while, see if it still has the same problem.

On the previous page you said you had symlinked some directories but weren't sure if you had done that before or after the problem occurred. You need to be certain, so don't symlink anything.

Once you've done that you can then firmly establish any possible hardware fault vs software.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Agreed... see my edit. :)

A bad SIM card was not the reason I asked the question. Network connection errors were. Remove the SIM to eliminate that possibility however slim.

A bad sector or corrupt MMC on older Maemo devices has been known to create an infinite loop too. Remove that as well, to also eliminate that rare possibility.

At the very least I would have hoped that the OP eliminated these ancillary possibilities before declaring that the device itself had a fatal flaw in his thread title.

And finally the symlink, which I agree is the most likely culprit. Particularly if it is from one side of the house to the other.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Right you are YoDude, good advice, I need to cut down on the carbonated diet beverages I think.

N900 minus SIM card = not a N900
 

@jd4200: I think being a phone is intrinsic to the N900, so "you can use it fully (minus making phone calls)" is a contradiction in terms. Once the SIM card is gone, I can't get software updates, I can't use it as a GPS (the Ovi Maps app has to download maps), I can't use my automated rsync scripts that backup my N900 data onto the home server --it would be little more than a $20 Palm Pilot. It's true that if I happen to be in a place where there is Wifi, the N900 could hook up to that, but if I had to hang around a Wifi hotspot to use my smartphone, I could do that with my notebook computer, which even has the advantage of a DVD burner.

In any case, it doesn't work even after I take the SIM card out. Sorry if I didn't make it clear, but I had already returned my first N900 to the store. When I did that, of course I took out the microSD card and the SIM card before giving it back. I had to demonstrate to the store that it was still non-functional (otherwise they would not refund all my money), and it was not. While it is still possible that the bad SIM card or bad microSD card was the cause, we already know that once the problem is triggered it is not resolved by removing the SIM/microSD card (yes, I did try rebooting after removing).

@matthew maude: Thanks. Could you give me the link to Nokia's Maemo forum? I thought this *was* the Maemo forum.

@YoDude: That is scary if a symlink can nearly brick the device, but I agree that that might be something other people might not do, which would account for the "We've never seen your error on the N900 so there must be something wrong with you and not the N900."

@YoDude again: Thank you for trusting me to have eliminated the basic possibilities and not treating me like some idiot to be talked down to. Indeed, I have done my best to eliminate the possibility of corrupt eMMC on my N900:
- for a corrupted eMMC image, correctable by reflashing, I have reflashed (about 4 or 5 times).
- for hardware corruption of eMMC, I have actually returned my first N900 and bought a second N900
It's possible that that both N900's were from the same bad batch since I got them from the same store, but then that would speak volumes about Nokia's quality control and whether I should use Nokia products in the future.

@maxximuscool: I did reflash the eMMC and OS; sorry if I wasn't being clear when I said in the original post: "there is only one thing I've found which can make it usable again: I have to flash the firmware and the "eMMC" image ... (It's not enough just to flash the firmware.)" As for "reflashing" the "Memory card", I take it you mean the microSD card. I'm not sure what you mean by "reflashing", but I replaced the old 128MB card with a brand new 16GB card, and the error still occurs --I think that answers you.

I have returned my N900 for a refund.

I would say that, after having owned a N900 for six weeks without being able to prevent (or even identify the trigger for) the boot-up error, I cannot realistically rely on the N900 as a phone, much as I'd like to use it. One might say that I could have spent more effort debugging during these six weeks, but if I was too busy to do so, then realistically I won't be able to do so in the future, either. I need something that just works.

Who knows, maybe I'll still try buying it off Amazon.com for $450, hoping that it was just a bad batch that went to my local electronics store.

@dchky: Hey, I like carbonated diet beverages, too! You don't suppose THAT could be the problem, maybe? :) just kidding

Bought a 3rd new N900 with same problem
 

Okay, I bought a new N900. Would appreciate continued help in eliminating the problem.

You can call me a glutton for punishment, but I really want a handheld computer with an open platform. I was also hoping that, by ordering from Amazon, I would get a unit from a different batch that would not have the same defect, but ... guess what? Right after reflashing firmware+eMMC and restoring from backup, I got the Forever Dots bootup error again.

We can eliminate the following as potential causes of the error:

- symlink (from ext3 to vfat) is eliminated as a possible cause of this error, since this time there was no symlink
- SIM card is eliminated: I contacted my cell phone provider and got a brand new SIM card. No luck.

At this time, the salient point seems to be: why is it that I'm the only one who has seen this error? Why has no one else seen this error? Is it something that I'm doing wrong, and if so, what exactly? I'm trying to come up with all the things that make me different from any other N900 user that might cause errors:

- my SIM card (no: I got a new one)
- my microSD card (no: I got a new one)
- my software (no: I installed no software from extras-devel, and only "mc" from extras-testing)
- far-fetched ones:
- my phone holster has a magnetic clasp. Is it magnetizing the accelerometer triggering a rare bug?
- I am using a screen protector sheet. Is it causing a sensor problem?

I know this sounds crazy, but if anyone can confirm you're using a screen protector or a magnetic holster and are having no problems, it would be much appreciated.

I keep hoping for a magic solution like, "Oh, all you have to do is press B when it boots and this goes away" or something like that.

I'll try to contact cpitchford as suggested by Matthew Maude. Meanwhile, the only other thing I can think of is to reflash with a different eMMC image, like "specific to USA" or something.

Comments appreciated.

:confused:

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

why did you reflash your device just after you bought it?

it probably worked before you did, so that probably means you dit something wrong with the reflashing (wrong file?) or your backup is broken

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

@kwtm

In case you need to talk to cpitchford.

http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/

http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/...user-id/130480

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Magnets near the N900 are known to wake up the device from sleep and mount/unmount the SD card.

https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6689
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8235

I don't know if your holster could be causing the reboot problems though. But might as well give it a try :)

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

if you are reflashing it:

what are the specs of the computer you are flashing from? windows xp, windows vista or 7, linux?

If you have to flash then try from a different computer.

do not use any backups, start installing everything from scratch. thats what i would after reading everything you've done so far.

make sure u are using the correct image to flash from.

did you check what version firmware you got before flashing?

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

I think BlessN900 is obsolete or conflicts with stuff (maybe the new Fcam). I know I removed my copy.

If you reflash the N900 and then restore your backup and the problem comes back, try doing the same again but not restoring your backup. Then add the programs that you intend to use one by one. Don't eat everything all in one gulp! It may help you find the culprit.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Are you sure the tech support really replaced your device instead of just reflashing your original one like how you have to keep doing now as a temporary fix?

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Fellow N900 users: Thank you for your replies.

It seems that the consensus is that I should start carefully installing software one-by-one and see which one might be causing the problem. I reluctantly conclude that this is the necessary course of action, since it does involve being unable to use the N900 properly until, gradually, all the software I need is present. I guess I would need, at a minimum, "vim" and "rsync" although "OpenSSH client" and "grsync" follow closely.

Since the presence of any offending software may not immediately trigger the problem, there will need to be a lot of trial-and-error and, basically, I won't be able to use the N900 as a phone. I'm going to leave the SIM card out since Nokia, in its Nfinite wisdom, decided that I must take out the battery in order to take out/put in the SIM card (who thought *that* one up?), and I don't want to trigger a reboot every time I make a change.

I'll also try to find a non-magnetic holster, but right now the one I have is the only usable one.

@myeyegooogles, who said: "what are the specs of the computer you are flashing from? windows xp, windows vista or 7, linux?"
I have used both Linux (Kubuntu 10.04) and Windows (XP) to flash the N900 firmware+eMMC.

@fromthehill, who said: "why did you reflash your device just after you bought it?"
I reflashed the device mainly to install Maemo PR1.2; it came with the old version of firmware (I could tell by the apps list screen).
Also, recall that this error had already occurred twice without me flashing anything: it happened in the first two N900's that I had bought. With the 3rd device I concluded that it needed flashing and I didn't want to waste time fooling around.

@gryedouge, who said: "In case you need to talk to cpitchford. http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/...user-id/130480"
Thanks for the info.

@un-named_user, who said: "Magnets near the N900 are known to wake up the device from sleep and mount/unmount the SD card."
Holy cow, that is scary.

@geneven, who said: "I think BlessN900 is obsolete or conflicts with stuff (maybe the new Fcam). I know I removed my copy."
I do not have BlessN900 installed. I tried to install it once; immediately afterward, it said "You have to reboot to complete the installation." When I rebooted, I got the "Forever Dots" error. That one time the error may or may not have been due to BlessN900; however, I reflashed firmware+eMMC to get rid of the problem, so the other umpteen times I got the error it was not due to BlessN900.

@TiagoTiago, who said: "Are you sure the tech support really replaced your device instead of just reflashing your original one like how you have to keep doing now as a temporary fix?"
There has been no tech support involved in this. You seem to imply that I brought the device to tech support who didn't really fix it; that's not true. I bought a new device from the store and opened the fresh seal. When I returned that device, I got another sealed N900 box off the shelf. After I returned that one, eventually a third sealed N900 was delivered to me by post. There are 3 different N900 devices involved.

I've also posted here hoping that someone at Nokia can help:
http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/...le/td-p/738018

I have just discovered the above Nokia board (thanks, gryedouge!). Reading it, I see that many people have had varying problems, and it is not unusual to find someone with a unique problem that no one else has had. While I take no joy in others' problems, it makes me feel vindicated after a bunch of N900 fans told me on IRC #maemo that there must be something wrong with me because no one else has ever encountered my problem before. A few choice impolite replies come to mind but I will voluntarily censor myself. :P Thanks again for all of you who have taken me seriously.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900
 

Okay, I solved the problem. This is what I would consider a bug in Maemo, although I guess the workaround is pretty straightforward. Anyway, thanks for all the encouragement from all those who offered positive comments. Thank goodness! Now I can start relying on my N900 again. Now to make all those iPhone4 users jealous. :)

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900 [solved]
 

I am characterizing the problem, hoping to submit a bug report for Maemo.

I'm just waiting for someone to say, "Well, THAT's not a bug to be fixed, that's just your fault for inducing an unstable situation! Of COURSE that one-line text file created in your home directory, where by default there is no such text file, would alter the behaviour of one of the pieces of software present by default in your N900, so that it becomes unusable unless you reflash the firmware and eMMC!"

Bonus points if you can name the text file, and the already-present piece of software which is affected by this text file.

the answer
 

Okay, I'm going to post this to make sure I don't forget even though I haven't finished fully characterizing the bug yet.

The software in question which is present by default is the shell (ash/BusyBox), and the file in question is "~/.profile", which affects the behaviour of the shell. It's a standard config file which is executed by most shells if present. Mine contained the one line "source ~/MyDocs/myprofile", which would then execute the file ~/MyDocs/myprofile that contained a number of aliases that made it easier to use the command-line.

It turns out that the shell is not just invoked when I run the Terminal, but also on boot-up. But on boot-up, the RAM disk MyDocs is not yet mounted, so the file ~/MyDocs/myprofile does not yet exist. Unfortunately, this results in an error which renders the N900 unusable.

The workaround is to make sure ~/.profile will work even when MyDocs does not exist, or not to use ~/.profile at all.

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900 [solved]
 

Subtle trap... especially for Maemo4 users transferring their existing .profile from an N8x0 to N900. Fortunately I didn't use MyDocs there... thanks for the reminder !

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900 [solved]
 

damn I got exactly the same issue with you now!

I tinkered with .bash_profile and after one reboot it entered forever dot. It is indeed a subtle trap!!

My question is, does anyone know a way to remove the .profile file without flashing the device??

Re: fatal boot-up flaw: help! I'll have to refund my N900 [solved]
 

For the record, I never did find a way other than reflashing. I got really good at backing up the device and reflashing. Sorry to hear that you're having the same problem.

Having said that, I want to make sure I understand correctly: you fiddled with ~/.bash_profile? Or just plain ~/.profile? I would think your device does NOT call ~/.bash_profile on startup since it's actually starting up ash (busybox).

I hope what it is is that you actually named your file ~/.profile. I hope it's NOT that your file was called ~/.bash_profile and ash went and executed it anyway. :P Actually, if I recall correctly, bash doesn't execute ~/.bash_profile, either; it's ~/.bashrc, ~/.login, ~/.logout, and ~/.profile.