[Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

After receiving feedback from the community, including developers who are trying to get their software into Ovi Store, it is the opinion of the Council that the unexplained restriction on dependencies between Ovi and Extras - and in particular the availability of Python as a platform for Ovi Store applications - represents a serious threat to the success of Maemo, MeeGo and Ovi Store.
It will come as a surprise for many community members and users that
Python is still not an officially supported language/runtime on the Maemo nor
MeeGo platforms, despite the huge number of* Python applications currently
in Extras, and even though they base on the work of Nokia's own PyMaemo
team, plus two Qt bindings and a GTK+/Hildon one. To put things in
perspective, about a third of ALL stable Maemo applications are written in
Python, both overall and those using Qt.

The community level support means Python itself is located in community
repositories, and, as a consequence, Python software is not admissible to
Ovi (regardless of being free or not). Highlighting this is part of a broader
agenda - ensuring cooperation between libraries and runtimes used by
Ovi-distributed software and software in community repositories, but the
first step towards that is addressing the single biggest such case - Python.

If there are technical issues which need to be addressed, let's discuss
them in the open and try and solve them; if there are purely political
issues, we strongly urge Nokia to reconsider.


Maemo Community Council



Link: Original article.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

Well said indeed. Add to that the fact that despite early announcements, PySide is still trailing far behind PyQt...

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

Ovi store applications (at least the paid ones) can't depend on extras because extras is not in control of Nokia. Stuff in extras can break any time, and Nokia would take the flak from third party developers that lost income because of the breakage.

For a dependency to be kosher for ovi store apps, it needs to be manually moved to Nokia repository.

I'm not sure what would be the best situation for Qt apps at the moment, since we have PyQt (GPL) and PySide (work in progress). As for pygtk / hildon libs, I think they should just be "frozen" and moved to the nokia repository.

For MeeGo, I think there is ample time for PySide to become ready. PySide is doing some nice stuff currently, like wrapping MeeGo Touch and mobility apis.

PS. Please send a pointer to this open letter to maemo-devel.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

The problem is that a good part of these packages ARE maintained by either people in Nokia or their subcontractors, just have no official status (see PyMaemo, PySide, etc). For packages not maintained by Nokians directly, I understand your point - but the idea is just to explore how we can deal with this split better, not just that "Extras should be allowed" per se. It's about working out a protocol how packages (mostly libraries) can get to be used from both Extras and Ovi without a lengthy tug-of-war where (looking from the outside) both ends are pulled on by Nokian affiliation.

PS. Forwarding to list

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

Well, as it is these applications need to graduate to the Nokia repository (where e.g. Qt Mobility sits ATM). This will kill normal evolution of the package on extras side, so if the package will continue evolving the "extras" instance of the package needs to be renamed to -experimental or somesuch and the library files installed in a different directory.

What we need is a process how we choose what packages we will "bless" to the nokia repository, and when. If it's currently just a handful of packages, we can go through an accelerated "special case" process and request this from the guy that has the power to do this. If we need an ongoing process, Community Council may be the instance that could request packages to be promoted there every now and then.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

Agreed. We already did this the hard way with libqt4-maemo5, were lucky enough to spot and react in time with regard to the Web Runtime, but it could be beneficial if we could make that into a policy (it's a sort-of-recommendation now).

Yes ! That is exactly what I'm talking about - we already had complaints people getting turned down from Ovi because of this - now, the thing is that we from *here* do not know which libraries are needed for people wanting to go through Ovi. That's why we feel we need a less ad-hoc process (ideally, get a report of the most requested Extras packages because of which Ovi acceptance failed, or a clear Q&A point in Ovi that tells people that they can come to us and at least ASK for a certain package they might need - and then we can see who is the maintainer, if that is a 'Nokian' package or not, whether it is feasible to push it to the blessed repos down the line, etc, etc).

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

It amazes me that we have to fight this hard for Maemo allowances at this point in its lifecycle...

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

And the second missstep is the requirement of the VAT Number ... this is a huge mistake ... not all type of company have a VAT number ...

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

I don't think this is the case anymore. Individuals can publish on Ovi store.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

There is no fight, just something that hasn't been done yet due to technical reasons (ovi store deployment for N900 is not an entirely finalized process).

EDIT: I mean there is no fight *yet* ;-). Of course Ovi store or fremantle platfom guys can still object. But I haven't heard anything that suggests there would be a "strategic" decision not to do this.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

Thanks, guys. I really believe that this is what the Council is for.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

I'm flabbergasted at this!

This should really be a matter of the utmost urgency.

The last thing Nokia need it to discourage developers contributing software to the platform as well as the OVI store.

This is reason enough to make Python an officially supported language and Nokia need this.

I can't wait for Nokia's response to this.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

It would be nice and re-assuring to get a formal response from Nokia on this.
.
.
(stop laughing!)

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

From http://maemo.org/community/council/o...eego_platform/

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

This is exactly kind of stuff what I expect council to do here. Great job! Let´s hope that we got some sort of solution or at least clear answer.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

Still working on it.

The current and default position is clear: Ovi supports the toolkits supported officially by Nokia and these are Qt, Web Runtime, Hildon (Maemo 5) and Java (Series 40).

The discussion is whether Ovi could host toolkits not officially supported (meaning supported by someone else) and not pre-installed in the device, so they could be used as dependencies by apps in the Ovi store depending on them.

More details in this discussion:

- Is Python support the solution or is it a process in place to accept new toolkits?

- What Python support are we talking about? PyMaemo, PySide and/or PyQt?

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

Eevn that contains a surprising snippet - Ovi supports Hildon applications ? How do you submit them ? All the non-Qt applications were inserted on a case-by-case basis either before Ovi for the N900 launched or AFAIK in direct cooperation with Nokia. So while we are at it, more info about this welcome.

In many cases it's not supported by someone else, but Nokia itself, but the projects have not yet attained 'official status'. Even there, signals are mixed, for example Qt Mobility is 'official' and is in Nokia repositories, but isn't supported by Ovi. From the outside, it simply looks random what the supported library selection is.

The former is a subset of the latter. There are other toolkits that might be very enticing, but without official status (Python, the Web Runtime, Java ME, etc), and also other fairly generic linux libraries that are for some (space, support ?) reason put into Extras.

Obviously, the first step is base Python itself (which might be interesting for plans regarding Symbian, too), closely followed by PyMaemo in the case of the N900. Now, given that console applications are not all the rage these days, PySide and/or PyQt would be more than interesting, but that's more down the line and a bit more sensitive considering the status of those projects. If we have a process how things migrate between Ovi, Nokia and Extras repositories, we can figure out how to do it with exact package X or Y.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

It's not a signal, it's a screwup that has already been escalated.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

Quick report before welcoming the weekend...

Some progress was done this week. vivainio has done a great job defining a polishing a technical proposal to offer PyMaemo 'silent support' for Maemo 5 apps. And we have learned that there is a plan to offer PySide also silently for MeeGo-Harmattan apps.

Trying to get a decision about PyMaemo for Maemo 5 apps, then.

Note that the rationale behind this goes around the fact that Python and PySide are already being maintained for testing/infra related purposes. The fact that they are also useful from a 3rd party developer point of view is like a bonus and we don't have any interest distracting developers from the main focus: Web Runtime & Qt.

Looking forward to decisions, hopefully next week. We hope this becomes a good compromise between the community developers interested in Ovi but not the official toolkits and the Nokia/Ovi strategy of clearly focusing in one native environment and one runtime.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

That might contribute why Ovi has so few apps... What the purpose to buy N900 without apps?

Go for it guys

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

After some discussion and technical analysis, a test will be done hosting Python libraries silently in the Ovi repository later this week. Stay tuned in this thread.

This test is for free of charge applications only and the unsupported status of these libraries keeps being the same. This is the practical step we could make to answer the community request at this point.

Supporting paid applications would imply either shipping the libraries in the firmware image (meaning official support and growth of the already big image) or making architecture changes in the way Ovi Store and the Application Manager backends work (something out of scope at this stage of Maemo 5).

The situation for MeeGo-Harmattan is still open. Let's run this test for Maemo 5 and then let's evaluate what to do next.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

This could be a huge differentiator. With only C++ as an official development choice, this situations is basically the same as that fruit company. No matter about support for other tools in general, a solution that specifically gives python support can make the Maemo/Meego products a clear choice for a lot of projects.
It can also allow more software to appear first on these Meego- even if this early product is not a commercial version.

Any further progress....does seem like it has been a week?

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

I'm cautiously optimistic over Python's prospects here. It has a lot of support in and around Nokia.

Re: [Council] Open letter of support for Python on the Maemo/MeeGo platform
 

And finally nothing... :(