Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

This will just run & run... doubt it will have any impact on Android in the short term, but longer term I suspect Google will cough up a suitable amount to make the lawsuit go away or alternatively remove any infringing code and carry on as before.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Ellison has to pay for that $5.6 Billion purchase of Sun somehow.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

I guess they finally figured out how to monetize Java.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Larry Ellison has embraced Google Android, too :D.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

They allready figured that one out. Pretty much all phones include Java support and license fees for it.

Dalvik is big threat to that.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

I guess the point Oracle are making is that Google are using Java technology in the Dalvik VM (not just implementing an already patented idea, but wholesale copying of code and documentation), but haven't licensed Java as everybody else does.

Which is a bit like Apple using GSM technology and patents, without paying for it.

The relationship between SUN and Google was a close one, and SUN appear to have turned a blind eye to what Google were doing, whereas the relationship between Larry Ellison (former Apple board member) and Steve Jobs is even closer, and now Oracle are going after Apples biggest competitor, Google.

I'm sure Steve Jobs is very happy. :)

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

I saw this movie already.

The next step is Larry Ellison sending a letter to all Android users telling them their phone is illegal and they should pay him 699$ for a license.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Actually I think that there was a simultanious trans-continental burst of happiness in Cupertino, Redmond and Espoo.


More seriously, I don't think that this will have serious effect on the current mobile platform war. Whatever the lawyers will come up with will include, relatively, small sums of money and possibly give Oracle bit more say/control on Dalvik.

Sun was very unhappy with Google/Dalvik. I think that simpler explanation is that Oracle bought Sun before Sun sued/was done with negotiating Google.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

It is a reason why I don't like Java or Java-powered products :)

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Can we start calling them "SCOracle" now?

Too late! It's already started!
http://www.itworld.com/open-source/1...eaponizes-java

EDIT: Oh wow! They even used the same lawyers as SCO! Morrison & Foerster and Boies Schiller! [slaps forehead]
http://www.scribd.com/doc/35811761/O...t-infringement

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

SUN execs including co-founder Andy Bechtolsheim were some of the earliest investors in Google (before Google had been incorporated) and Eric Schmidt (who led Java development at SUN) went on to become CEO for Google. The relationship between SUN and Google has always been very cosy, and it's a great shame Google didn't buy SUN (perhaps they wished they had now).

Oracle don't have that kind of relationship with Google, instead the Oracle CEO is best buddy of the Apple CEO. It's all rather incestuous!

If true, how long does it take to negotiate a licence that is available to every Tom, Dick and Harry company on the planet? If Google couldn't come to an agreement over a Java licence with SUN then Google only have themselves to blame - everyone knew SUN were up for sale months before Oracle finally inked the deal.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Just can't parse that article at all. Pure FUD in my opinion. Full of unrelated conjucture without any explanation for why this case would have causality to any of the things mentioned like Openoffice.


What's wrong with hiring excellent patent attorneys for a patent fight. Bring effing big knifes to a knive fight.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Hm...if I'm to understand what this article explains, SCOracle may not have much of a case to win, though:
http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/110/

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

[posted this already in another thread]

There is an interesting article about the Java licensing issues between Sun (now Oracle) and Google:

"Initial Thoughts on Oracle vs Google Patent Lawsuit" Miguel de Icaza's at:

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Aug-13.html

Gives some background on what has been going on behind the scenes.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Oracle go **** themsels this hasnt happen if Sun still existed.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

The article is clearly pointing out Oracle's history and possible posturing. FUD appears to be what is being lobbed toward Android with this lawsuit itself. You're right, though, it does seem you're unable to parse it.

What's wrong with hiring excellent patent attorneys for a patent fight. Bring effing big knifes to a knive fight.[/QUOTE]

Nothing. It's just an interesting choice for a very similar sounding case to SCO's.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

He's also insane if he thinks .NET/C# is the answer, considering how similar the license situation with that is.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Well, you mentioned in your earllier post Apple using using GSM tech without licensing it. Nokia negotiated- and this is verifiable from publicly availeable court documents- with Apple for over two years before suing Apple, and GSM licenses are under FRAND .

Taking Apple/Nokia/Oracle/Googel/etc level corporation to court is extremly expensive and both time and resource consuming. Granted I don't have any insider infromation and you could be right. I just wouln'dt shrug off Sun negoating with Google for few years before suing as unlikely.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Good point, well made. :)

However even if they couldn't come to an agreement together, irrespective of who is to blame, it still wouldn't explain breach of copyright - that's just dumb. Infringing patents is one thing, but to literally copy code and hope to get away with it?

Presumably Oracle have seen the source code/documentation in Android to know that it has been copied, and despite the comparisons with SCO (who produced no evidence to back up their flimsy arguments) I would be surprised if Oracle are unable to produce the evidence to support their argument.

In fact the copyright claims pertain to (amongst other things) the use of copyrighted Java code/binaries that are required to build Android applications - if the court were to find in favour of Oracle this aspect of the case could harm Android unless Google rapidly finds a non-Java solution for building Android binaries.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Ahem. Patent lawsuit and copyright.

Also, Dalvik uses Dalvik tokenized code--it doesn't produce Java tokenized code. You WRITE your source in Java, but the Android system runs Dalvik compiled code. So, not quite right.
Read the details I'd posted earlier.

I'd like to know how this stands after the whole recent Bilski decision.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

No, it's a Patent and Copyright lawsuit.

Full details here, title of the court document is "COMPLAINT FOR PATENT AND COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT" which details 7 counts of patent infringement and one count of breach of copyright.

Not according to the first point in the Update and Errata box here which states that the Android SDK does not generate Dalvik bytecode directly but that the SDK uses the Java compiler to generate Java bytecode from Java sources and then uses the dx tool to convert the Java bytecode into Dalvik bytecode.

And I believe it is this indirect Java source code to Dalvik bytecode generation that Oracle are now saying is a breach of copyright:

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Yep... I corrected my posting afterwards for the first bit. Still curious about how the patent part will effect this moreso than the copyright.

I didn't realize the second, though. Thanks for the correction. This will be an interesting case for me to read up on even for the technical details.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Patents can be (and often are) invalidated during a court case, and determining if a patent has been infringed upon isn't always black and white.

Breach of copyright claims on the other hand are usually much harder to dismiss if the copied works are easy to identify (which is often the case with source code and documentation).

IANAL however, but it should be interesting to hear more about the details as the case continues.

I'm not really in favour of software patents so would be quite happy to see Oracle lose that part of this case, but on the other hand duplicating the work of another is simply not on in which case if the copyright claims are proven then Google should pay suitable damages.

Either way though this case means absolutely nothing to anyone other than Google and Oracle right now - the case has no bearing on Java whatsoever (other than to focus minds on getting a licence if you want to do business with Oracle...) :)

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Well, I think it is a first nail in Java coffin.

It is not bad.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Java is pretty huge in the enterprise - particularly on servers (Java never really succeeded on the desktop) and I still don't see how this spat between Oracle and Google will change any of that.

On low-end Symbian phones Java will continue to be the development environment of choice (I don't think there are any plans for Qt to replace Java Mobile Edition, are there?) so again, this lawsuit changes nothing.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Will you plan some new product with Java as base language after that?

Or just chose Python/Ruby/Perl?

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Sure - I'd just be aware of the licence that I am agreeing to (ie. GPL) when using Java and make sure I don't breach it. For virtually all enterprises and end users the current terms of the Java licence are absolutely fine, it's only a high profile outfit like Google that is likely to come a cropper as their technology sails so close to the wind and they don't have a licence with Sun/Oracle of any kind whatsoever.

If I thought there was any hint of a problem, and for that I'd have to be developing some sort of Java-like alternative, then I'd either negotiate an appropriate licence for the technology from Oracle or use some alternative but freely available technology, depending on what is cheaper/best for the project. Which is what Google could/should have done (or maybe even did do - now up to the court to decide).

For 99.99% of Java users today this lawsuit is not an issue.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

You can think that you are free from Sun licensing. Unfortunately, Sun may start think differently... later.

And that is a risk for investments. I would be not surprised if Java-based projects now may be downgraded from investors point-of-view.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

What kind of question is that?

It's like when companies gets sued over GPL violations, pro-MS "commentators" jump out and ask would "Would you use GPL software when there is the risk of being sued".

Don't do anything illegal and you won't get sued and if you still do get sued at least you have a leg to stand on.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Maybe Google should switch to MeeGo now. :cool:

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Maybe they should both stop using Linux altogether, too, since SCO is still in court over it! It's still not 100% decided, according to them. It's time to Think Different (grammar mistake intentional)!

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

This sorta could explain why Nokia avoided Java in Maemo 5. Hmm...

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

If not Linux, then what?

I triple dog dare you to say BeOS.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

How about VAX/VMS?

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Plan 9 from Bell Labs. It's esoteric enough to warrant a following and claims of superiority.

Seriously though. I fear that Linux is the way forward; people like Ellison/Oracle and SCO are just in the goshdarn way.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

I'm dying to read a statement from Nokia and/or Intel about this. Both official and unofficial :D

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

I think the 'scoracle' tag on this thread and the villianization of Oracle points more to a huge level of Google fanboyism on this forum. Everyone seems to be intoxicated by Google PR spin while they don't for a second consider the legal validity of the suit. Oracle is not attacking Linux. Android is not Linux despite popular belief. Android has not been benificial to the broader Linux ecosystem since none of their apps and games work in standard Linux due to their private fork of the kernel and their use of a Java (Dalvik) VM. They are the opposite of what Qt is.

Here's a quote from a commenter on ZDNet that sums it up:

"If you read the claim, it is valid. Mobile Java has never been open source, only the desktop version is, and even that has some loop-holes.

We have been thinking this law suit was going to happen since Andriod came out: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/s...-overblown/469
but people shrugged it off because Sun didn't have the money to do anything about it. Well Oracle does, and something tells me that they wouldn't go after a big dog like Google without knowing they could win.

Here is a good article on how the creator of Java feels about the lawsuit (spoiler he is not surprised): http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Java-Creator-Gosling-Oracles-Android-Lawsuit-is-No-Surprise-272156/"

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

I know nothing of the law and am far from a Google zealot, but an original re-implementation of an interpreter doesn't seem like an illegal act. I could only see this as a problem if Dalvik has actual moblie-java code...

If it is illegal, the precedent would send a shockwave, no? Consider the degree to which ideas are re-implemented in open source projects or science in general!

Maybe I'm missing something.

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

You can read the claims here http://www.scribd.com/full/35862614?...xtgo6ryhusdwps

Re: Oracle sues Google over Java patent infringement in Android
 

Thanks! I read most of it (though not terribly thoroughly).

I can appreciate the claim that google is illegally distributing Sun Java classes and other code is serious, if indeed it is true (Count 8).

Many of the patents that Sun are claiming to be violating, however, seem incredibly sweeping (based on their titles -- I've not read the patents) and likely to apply to far more projects than Android/Dalvik. Some are questionable. Here they are:

COUNT 1) Protection domains to provide security in a computer system
COUNT 2) Controlling access to a resource
COUNT 3) Method and apparatus for preprocessing and packaging class files
COUNT 4) System and method for dynamic pre-loading of classes through memory space cloning of a master runtime system process
COUNT 5) Method and apparatus for resolving data references in generated code
COUNT 6) Interpreting functions utilizing a hybrid of virtual and native machine instructions
COUNT 7) Method and system for performing static initialization

Wild stuff indeed.