Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

I've been looking to get a PDA/Internet tablet/computer for awhile now, and I'm somewhat torn between the N800 of a PocketPC -- in particular, the Fujitsu LOOX N560 (http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=134...pen#technical). Here's my comparison to date:

-- N800 has 800x480 screen, N560 has 640x480 screen; more resolution is always nice
-- N800 is somewhat larger
-- Both have integrated WiFi and Bluetooth
-- Both have USB host support in hardware, but N800's Kernel doesn't yet support it (whereas using USB keyboard with the N560 is common -- personally I prefer this over a Bluetooth keyboard since it's one less battery to have to keep charged)
-- Speaking of keyboard, with no external keyboard the N800 has an apparently quite usable "thumb keyboard" touchscreen mode. The N560 figures you'll be using a stylus.
-- N560 has a built-in GPS receiver! N800 could pair with a BT GPS receiver -- I have a GPSlim 236, which people report the N800 works with -- but more importantly, there's already a handful of high-quality, commercial mapping/navigation programs for PocketPCs. I use Mapopolis, whereas TomTom is probably the most popular. Nokia just announced some mapping software, but only for Europe... and I'm in the U.S.
-- N800 is perhaps a little more "hackable" being LINUX-based (a shell in Windows Mobile is not a common sight!), although I've read some of the boot code is locked and therefore it's not completely "open."
-- Things I know how to program in include C++, Python, and wxWidgets. Both support the first two, but I don't imagine wxWidgets will show up on the N800 any time soon, whereas it is somewhat usable on Windows Mobile (the N560). How difficult is programming the N800's native GUI API?
-- NNTP newsreaders for Windows Mobile aren't very good (the fullest featured one, Qusnetsoft, is quite buggy), whereas I'd suspect the one that comes on the N800 is quite usable?
-- Both seem to be OK at reading PDF files and running a remote desktop client if need be.
-- N560 has Pocket Excel/Word... N800 has... ???
-- The N800 is ~$380 street price, whereas the N560 is ~$620 in the U.S. Even accounting for the N560's GPS receiver, it's still not quite as good a value. (Although the N560's high-price seems to have to do primarily with Fujitsu not making any effort to distribute it in the U.S., so you only have a few specialized importers which drives up the cost.)
-- N800 has 2 SD slots, N560 has one.
-- N560 has IrDA, N800 doesn't. I've used IrDA in the past to print photos from my phone -- nice little feature, and printers with IrDA still seem a little more common than those with Bluetooth or WiFi.
-- N800 appears to have much better battery life?
-- N800 has a built-in FM radio.

Does anyone have some thoughts on this? I sort of really want the N800, but when I think about it objectively the N560 seems to come out on top, primarily due to the much better software support it currently enjoys, and the fact that I feel I could much more readily sit down and start writing software for a Windows Mobile device than for an N800.

Thanks for your input,
---Joel Kolstad

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

N800 is clear winner for me. If it comes out on top for you, you probably want Windows Mobile device. N800 is not such device so go for the other one :-)

It is same choice as on desktop. If you'd choose Linux on desktop then you are not afraid of anything and N800 is best for you. If you prefer boring and safe ride go for Windows. With N800 you can do more but with bigger effort on your part.

N800 is ultimately hackable. One such example was adding SDHC (i.e bigger SD cards) support. If windows mobile device has no such driver made by manufacturer, you cannot do anything. With N800 it was easy.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

It depends what you want to do with the devices... if you want a good internet/web surfing experience, get the N800 as the extra pixels make a HUGE difference. Trust me on this - my VGA iPaq HX4700 now sits in a drawer once I came to the conclusion that surfing on a 640x480 screen is not enjoyable.

If you want to develop software, all of the N800 dev tools are free to download whereas on the Windows Platform you'll probably need Visual Studio .net or some other non-free dev environment. Python is well supported with bindings for the GUI - I can't honestly say how difficult it is to write GUI apps for the N800 as I've never attempted it, but there is a fair amount of documentation available in the Maemo Wiki (http://maemo.org/maemowiki/). You can chat directly with Nokia and community developers on irc (#maemo) or post in the developer newsgroup gmane.comp.handhelds.maemo.devel.

Printing from the N800 is an issue right now - it's not really possible. Not sure if that will ever change.

The N800 RSS news reader is just about usable, but it does have some quite serious bugs that have led to Nokia announcing in Bugzilla that it will be easier to rewrite it than try to fix the bugs. Hopefully a new version will appear sooner rather than later.

US maps should be available for the Nokia navigation app. There is also Maemo Mapper! :)

Software support is growing for the N800, however it's undeniable that the Windows Mobile platform enjoys more applications.

If you want a solid PDA get the Fujitsu. If you want a device to surf the web, watch movies, listen to mp3s and to hack/develop on then get the N800!

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Basically it is GTK http://www.gtk.org/ with some extensions. Both python and c++ is possible. You can also do c# with Mono (http://www.mono-project.com/Maemo). Check the maemo site http://www.maemo.org/ for developer info (site is moving today, new version currently at http://test.maemo.org/, better check tomorrow)

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Coming from an Dell x50v pocketpc, Id like to point out that I think its not just the fact the n800 has a wider, higher res screen. But also that the version of opera included on the n800 is on a completely different level than any of the browsers on pocketpcs.

When I was using the dell I was very excited at first to have a unit with BT and wifi to surf the web on, but I quickly found out that the entire process was slow and clumsy. Pages seem to load much slower than the n800 (even though it had a cpu that was twice as fast, and a 3d card in it) and pretty soon I only kept the browsers installed to show ppl when they asked about the pocketpc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there were some very big reasons why Im happier with my n800 than the x50v, that don't quite come across on the white papers and spec sheets on the internet, but are easy to notice if you get to spend some time with the units themselves. If you have the option, Id purchase them from a store with a lax return policy (in Canada, Future Shop, Best Buy, Walmart, etc) so that you can try the unit out for a bit and get a real feel for it.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

My GPSlim 240 works fine with the N800 and Maemo Mapper, so your GPSlim 236 probably does also.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Thanks for all the information guys... I'm definitely still leaning towards the N800.

I did a little Googling, and it seems that wxWidgets has ...possibly... been ported to the N800, using the GTK+ bindings. I say "possibly" because you see claims that it's been done, but you also see posts where people couldn't get it working... hmm...

GTK+ itself just seems so... painful... to me these days :-), having used C++ for awhile. Does anyone know if gtkmm (the C++ wrapper for GTK+) works on an N800?

In general I take it ones compiles N800 code on a Linux box and then dumps the executables onto the N800, right? I.e., no compiling directly on the N800?

Thanks,
---Joel

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Correct, although it doesn't have to be a "Linux box" as such since you can download a VMWare image of the Linux (Ubuntu) N800 development environment and using VMWare player you can then "boot" Linux (with a fully configured N800 dev env) as a regular application within your Windows XP OS! :)

Note that you can build, execute and debug apps on the x86 PC within the dev environment, then when you are ready you build the executable targetted for the ARM architecture within the N800 and copy it over (or build a deb - deployment package).

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

I had a Dell x51v and to back up other remarks, the bloated O.S. felt 'beta' I had random crashes with apps, and random OS hangs just after a reboot. The Wifi was very hit and miss, after restoring the device to it's default config the wifi would work well, after a few weeks it would again fade.

Eventually I ended up leaving the device in it's out-of-box state, and as long as in that state it was stable and did what it was advertised to do.

The browser selections were frustrating and slow ....painfully slow with minimo.

At the end of the experience I felt like I'd paid to be a bit of a beta tester. I was upgrading from a Palm and I expected the same 'instant on' snappy stable performance, that's what a PDA is all about right?

It was great for watching video when travelling (with memory cards), and it could serve as an OK browsing experience when in a pinch. I do have some good memories of that device, unfortunately I didn't have the time to invest to get it working to my satisfaction, or the patience to wait for revised firmware.

...at least the nokia tablet is still on the climbing side of the curve, and uses a more suitable OS (IMHO).

Neil

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Yes, either don't hesitate to click that c++ link in my post above or use Google :-)

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Thanks for the response, Neil. I have a Sprint PPC 6700 phone that runs Windows Mobile, and while it is quite "capable," I've had the same experience that it seems rather unresponsive and just not very well "integrated" at times. My finance has a Palm Treo 650, and -- while it doesn't have as many bells or whistles -- it does seem to work much more smoothly and almost never requires a hard reset (whereas this happens probably a couple times a month for me).

Everyone does seem to rave about the N800's WiFi abilities...

It seems bizarre that the N800 apparently has a poorer video interface at the hardware level than the N770 did, though, doesn't it? (The posts about it being very difficult to get full-motion video out of it.) I think I'm kind of resigned to the idea that, if I buy an N800, I should count on Nokia releasing an N900 next year some time and then upgrading.

---Joel

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Ah, thanks! I hadn't clicked before because I figured the linked pages were going to tell me that, yes, you can use Python and C++, which I already knew. :-)

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

I noticed that the OP asked about NNTP news readers while the (only) response was about the RSS news reader.. not quite the same thing!

I haven't seen any NNTP reader for the N800 (although one could be hidden inside one of the bigger 3party multi-function apps for all I know), but if the demand is there there are several that could be ported. Maybe 'pan', which is a gtk2-based reader: I haven't looked at it, but gtk2 is what N800 uses.

I own several PDAs. What I like best with my N800 compared to the PDAs are battery- and screen related:
1) The N800 screen is just much better.
2) Except in sunlight.. My Palm T3, for example, has a transflective screen, which means it suddenly gets readable if it's put in direct sunlight. The N800 doesn't have a transflective screen, i.e. indoor is best (and stick to the shadows outdoor)
3) The N800 can stay on wi-fi all day and more, and the connection is alive too.. I get my emails, google talk chats etc. coming in. None of my PDAs can do anything even close - they simply can't be used that way. Maybe the smartphone-PDA devices with wi-fi is better in this respect, but I don't own one of those.
4) I have to keep remembering to charge my PDAs every few days, if I forget they lose all information. Doesn't happen with the N800, you don't lose anything even if you remove the battery. For PDAs you would need non-volatile memory to do the same (e.g. newer Palm and Treos, or some smartphones). I'm constantly running a backup program on my T3 just in case I get a hard reset or a battery runout, and I've still managed to lose important information. With the N800 I can be much more relaxed.
5) The calendar, and some of the other PIMs on my T3 is better than what I can use on the N800. The PDA is a better PDA, the N800 is an excellent internet device. Slightly different beasts.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Okay you guys have all but convinced me to buy a N800, I have one question;

Is their Software I can get my hands on that will allow me to edit .doc or other text files, .xls or other spreadsheet files?

I don't consider myself a programmer or a power user, I am an endurance user. I used an modded Apple 2 (The last serious hacking I have ever done) until 93, a Windows 3.1 system until 1998, 95 until 2001, and 98 until 2004.

I just lost my Second Windows CE/Mobile device due to hardware failure. I use the hell out of Word, Excel and Notepad. (45,000 word novella written on an Axim x3i) and I am looking for a replacement device. My Dell Axim x3i Pocket PC was my device of choice, unfortunately Dell no longer sell them and I can't afford 900.00 dollars on E-Bay. Thanks

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Pan works nicely on the N800. I use it often.

R.
==

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

There is an older version of Abiword that works for doc files, but you almost certainly won't be happy using it. For spreadsheets, Gnumeric works nicely. For text files, I use Leafpad, but MaemoPad (and MaemoPad+) is a good text editor too.

R.
==

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

There is a few X3i's on eBay for $195 last I checked.

I know there is Abiword on the N800 and I believe that opens .doc documents.

You'll find the N800's screen to be simply amazing compared to pocket pc's, but the software is a little immature. Though I expect the next 6 months to be a good time for the little tablet, as Nokia claims they are going to give it a good push.

Considering you keep your devices around for years, a linux device such as this should provide a good platform to grow with.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

DO NOT!!!! plan on using the N800 to read or edit MS Word documents or do real email. For me, this is what kills the N800. It is great for browsing some websites while I am in bed or on the throne, but other than that, you need e phd to get the limited software available to even install on the device or work. For examle, everyone tells me that abiword works on the N800 but it will not install on my N800 from the repository to which I was directed in this forum, nor will Gneumeric install for me.

If the $400 bucks or so is no big deal, then go for it, but be prepared to take a lot of time to get things to work. The people on this forum are superb, but I don't have the time to devote. Perhaps you do. Good luck.

- Mark

p.s. I wish Nokia would pay Citrix a lot of money to make a client for the N800. Now that would change everything overnight.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

It really depends on what you wish to do with the device. In my opinion pocket pc devices are better for business than the internet tablet.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Amen to that!

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

The N800 lacks a certain level of polish compared to WinMo. The MS platform delivers good business connectivity for word, excel and outlook email. The negatives are the stability issues that another user talked about and the browser options are terrible.
For using word docs on N800 try this workaround , Gnumeric is good for spreadsheets.
For email use I tried using Claws Mail for a while which is a great IMAP client but I found that using Exchange Web Access was a lot better and the screen fits excellently on the 800 pixel wide screen.
Basically if you want to use web based tools for connectivity the N800 is great if you want to sync for offline use then the Windows Mobile unit is probably a better bet.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

The 2.2.7 version of abiword WITH the
more-gconv-modules works reasonably well- it
will save as an .rtf (although it has a .doc
extension), and it will handle reasonable tasks
(although notably not bullets and numbered lists).
I would consider it an alpha product, leaning
toward beta. Gnumeric is solid as a rock, though,
and handles .xls without complaint. Hope that helps. K.ps. K.ps. K..7 version of abiword WITH the more-gconv-modules works reasonably well- it will save as an .rtf (although it has a .doc extension), and it will handle reasonable tasks (although notably not bullets and numbered lists). I would consider it an alpha product, leaning toward beta. Gnumeric is solid as a rock, though, and handles .xls without complaint.

Easy
 

PocketPC is an HP12C calculator

The Nokia N800 is an Apple II

Your choice

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

What about online text editor programs like Google Docs and Spreadsheet, has anyone tried this apps. looking though you have to be online for Google's editor to work.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

I have not had any problems with SciTE for word documents and gnumeric for excel they both work grate.... And for emailing I use claws-email.. simply the best :)
I use this tools quite often since I am in the field a lot.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Thank you all for your advise, I don't think the N800 is a mature enough device for my needs. The Strong Text editor is my major concern. Thank you again and I will be looking at the next generation Nokia Tablet, a Pocket PC lasts about three years, the way I use them.

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

Thanks, I'll check it out!

Re: Should I get an N800 or a PocketPC?
 

You don't know how much better this is, on devices like this its akin to going from a 27" TV to a 42" TV!

I've got the 770 which is a little bit smaller then the N800, but the size has never been an issue for me.

This is a great feature that makes answering email with out a BT keyboard a much more pleasant exercise. I'm very happy with the touchscreen keyboard, I'm surprise more devices don't use such a concept.

Maemo Mapper is an awesome navigation program that's free. I use it with a $70 Rikaline GPS that holds a GPS signal better then some purpose built GPS'! 90% of the time the app serves my purpose, the only time if fails is when you need to make a change to itinerary and without an Internet connection that can pose a problem, but for me at least, that doesn't happen that often.

rdesktop and vnc are available, don't recall is the PocketPC has both apps available.

One area that lacks a little on the N800, but if you don't need editing capabilities, I've had great luck with converting my excel and word docs to PDF and using them on the IT. http://www.expresspdf.com/

My experiences has been that IrDA is slowing dying out as connectivity option being replaced by BT.