Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I just wanted to know what you guys think...

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

If you overlook the legal/practical risks (apps that phone home, bugged torrents, trojan lined rars, legal prosecution if caught, etc)... then I guess it all goes back to your own ethic/moral compass.

Asking for input to shape your own opinion is fine, but I hope it's not just to gather enough 'votes' to justify doing something that you think is 'wrong'.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

+1 if you only have a dollar or a pound in your pocket. is it ok to steal your lunch? NO theft is theft.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

While I don't see any reason the right or wrong of copyright violation should depend on how much money you have either, that doesn't justify bs arguments equating two dramatically different things.

Theft is theft, copyright infringement is not theft.

Theft is unambiguously morally wrong, because you deprive someone else of their property by force -- now you have, and they don't. (Note that this argument does not depend on the vagaries of government; should a law be passed making it legal for me to steal your lunch, I'd still be a thief, and still be morally wrong if I proceeded to do so.)

Copying information is <i>not</i> unambiguously wrong, because when you make a copy, the original is undisturbed; you have, and they also have. If copying information were equivalent to theft, then it would make no difference that the law sets a definite limit to copyright -- it would be just as wrong for me to copy Gulliver's Travels as a Koontz novel, even though the legal situation is completely different. Copyright is purely a construnct of government, and so is only morally binding because and to the extent that disobeying government is inherently morally wrong (the modern version of divine right; since this is widely disputed, it's unsurprising that copyright infringement is broadly considered morally acceptable.

(Rule of thumb: if it's alright to violate speed limits, it's alright to violate copyright -- they both cause no direct harm to others, they both are violations of a concept created and maintained by government fiat, and "everybody" does them, but is afraid to say they're OK, because that sounds too much like scary anarchism.)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Piracy != Theft

When will people get this straight??? The current IP law in the US is hopelessly broken. The USPTO, time and again, has proven to be incompetent. The rise of corporations has reduced individual rights. The governments and corporations view ordinary citizens as mere gullets that consume products and **** out money. Please feel free to pirate as much as you can. Civil disobedience has a rightful place in a contemporary society.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Yes it is. Especially Microsoft.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

It would be interesting to have a poll asking people if they had ever downloaded, used or helped to share a downloaded song or software that would be considered 'pirated'.

Anyone who answers yes would have no right to be all high and mighty about others actions.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

The way I see it: if you are using software to learn then it's ok.. If it's for professional use then you should buy it.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

For me, using a product in a manner that would prevent a revenue stream from reaching the creators is a strict no. I'm not saying I've never done it. But for the last 10 years, I have not and henceforth I never intend nor expect to.

For students and others who may not be able to afford it: Have you searched for a free / cheaper alternative? Have you asked about Linux?

If after all your research you find that your needs (or your Professor's needs) can be satisfied only by using a paid software, have you asked for student discounts? Have you asked your Professor to provide a license for classroom usage?

If that is still too pricey for you, perhaps its time to pirate... or re-evaluate your options.

Also: Do you really need that product in the first place? Do you HAVE to have the latest Avatar movie before it hits Netflix?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Depends. The simple yes/no won't make justice to the question.

My personal guidelines:

(1) If there's a FOSS alternative, use that.
(2) If the copy is for educational purposes (non-profit, not for keeping), it's ok to try it before spending disproportional amount of my income.
(3) If I have the money, buy it.
(4) If I'm making money with it, buy it.

Disclaimer: I'm not encouraging anyone to pirate software.

For several years now, most of the stuff has been covered by (1) for me.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

As a student, you can buy academic versions. You can buy the $2100+ Adobe CS5 for like $199. Piracy is not an option imho.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

piracy is cool only if it allows one to learn (trial versions?) but to make money from it - not cool.

setting standards (.doc etc) across the industry that everyone must follow by paying huge amounts of money - also not cool.

its not easy.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I understand many of your comments on piracy. But i assume most of you are guys who have a job. Are you sure you would have tought similarly when you were in college without a job?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

You shouldn't ask ppl's opinion. There is always someone who is against piracy, no matter what. So, just do it quietly if there is absolutely no other option.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I kept a job while in university. You seem like you're looking for justification.

In that case, just do it, hope you don't get caught. If you do, then you can't say that people didn't persuade you otherwise. And if you get a job with one of these companies you're pirating from; hope you don't get downsized due to economical reasons that directly/indirectly are connected to piracy.

And what about this college. Doesn't it have a computer lab? Or library? And why would you pirate... wouldn't the openness of your OS of choice have viable options? I mean... it's so damn open.

Sorry, I'm anti-piracy to the core.

Judging by the poll answers, probably explains why there's such a hard dislike to DRM around these parts.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Piracy supporters are rationalizing. If there's an expectation of payment, whether it's for a solid product, service or what-have-you, then obtaining the item or service without paying is theft.

Some people conveniently overlook the fact that intangible goods represent a service.

I always worked in college. I also work very hard to maintain ethics and avoid succumbing to poor logic and rationalization. Don't always succeed, but I try.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I'm a college student, currently jobless. My opinion on piracy is that it's a morally neutral event - you're not right in doing it, and you should pursue better alternatives, but, in itself, it's not morally wrong.

Depending on the exact circumstances, this gets modified slightly - how much profit is the person/company making here, how much profit should they make off what you're pirating (to the best of one's judging ability)?

I have a game (Gratuitous Space Battles) that I've bought (inc. every DLC expansion pack) - made by an independent game developer. I always felt it was worth paying full price for it. I think pirating anything that has an as-good (or good enough for your purposes) open source alternative is morally worse than doing the same for something that has no such alternative, because you're also contributing to the spread of the proprietary standards with the former, while the latter is conceivably reasonably necessary.

Also, note that I hold software piracy and entertainment media piracy (or whatever you'd call movies, books, music, etc) as different things. They are very related and close, but different nonetheless. Again, whether or not I feel there should be payment for such things (and by extension how 'wrong' pirating that particular thing is - with the default, all else being equal position being that it's neutral morally) is linked to how much I believe a person/group/company deserves that profit, etc. I'm more likely to pay an artist directly, or 'donate'/gift them money, than to pay a company in the record industry, for instance.

(By a similar token, when I DO have a job I intend to donate decent chunks of money to open source projects on par with proprietary software.)

- Edit -

Texrat posted while I was typing, about how digital goods represent a service. I wanted to say that I agree with that with principle. And in practice, I would take that into account as part of "certain circumstances" and so on. To be honest almost every ethics opinion I have is, well, too in-depth to cover in a forum post.

To answer the OP's question in a more blunt and concise manner, though: Unless you can argue that the software is something so important to your (or others') quality of life being above a reasonable minimal standard, present or future, that it's morally wrong for the other party to not give away that software (I would claim that can be the case in the modern world, but it's relatively rare) for free, then you can't say that it's morally right for you to pirate it. Is it 'ok' in that it's not unethical - I would say there's a decent window for that, but depending on what software you want and how much you need it, and how much the makers of it are impacted by you not paying them, there's still a decent possibility that it does cross over into what I'd consider unethical.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Companies that sell software depend on users stealing it. Then they can guilt-trip consumers into buying it. It works. It's kind of like a primitive version of shareware.

Once upon a time, software was rigorously protected. It was also incredibly overpriced. The companies that tried to sell that software did badly. A company such as WordPerfect did well. Its software was not copy protected. The reason it did well was that customers stealing the software had a chance to try it out -- no one in their right mind was going to buy a bunch of software at very stiff prices just to see if it might fill their needs.

WordPerfect found other ways to encourage stealers to buy its product. Frequent updates and many disks gave incentive to buying a legit copy -- stealing was such a hassle!

The current software industry is based on consumers as they are, not on ethical robots who do the right thing. It knows that they will steal software -- the question is, how to slowly steer them into the right path? The answer is to pretend piracy is a horrible thing yet continue to make piracy possible. The companies that do this prosper.

What I am saying is a condensed version of what goes on, and is inevitably inaccurate in some ways. But it is the general picture of what goes on. So a student shouldn't go into ethical fits because his friends are stealing software. It's part of the system and how it works.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

^ an utter crock

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

When I was in college my aunt sponsored my own machine. She left the software up to me - which meant a copy of pirated Windows XP.
After I got my first job, after I paid off all my student debts and paid off my aunt for the machine she sponsored, I went and bought a copy of Windows to match the one I had pirated for that machine.

For every pirated Windows virtual machine that I installed in college, I have bought a genuine Windows copy.
I paid for multiple VmWare Workstation installation to compensate for the times I installed it from a pirated copy.

I do this because I believe in the fact that I get what I give. I write open source software because thats another way I hope to pay back for all the free stuff I used.

Its Karma and you don't want her to take from you forcefully what you can pay of your own free will.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Sorry, Texrat is so right in his comment on mine. It was an utter crock.

**Software was never incredibly expensive.

**WordPerfect copy-protected its program, didn't have lots of disks, and didn't make frequent changes in its software so there were many changes.

**WordPerfect never did prosper, and what it did did not affect the software industry.

**The software industry DEPENDS on customers who are ethical robots. It's important for you to never, ever pirate anything. The sky will fall if you pirate, because everyone assumes that no one will pirate.

**Consumers are HAPPY to invest in software they have never tried and will willingly invest THOUSANDS of dollars in software in the hope that it might work.

**In particular, students should NEVER try out software just for the sake of learning. Companies that sell software do not WANT students to be familiar with it; they want students to go out into the world ignorant of what is available by virtue of not having tried it. A student who spends five minutes playing around with a software program he does not own is committing a HEINOUS CRIME!

Bill Gates NEVER WAS QUOTED AS SAYING

“It’s easier for our software to compete with Linux when there’s piracy than when there’s not.”

or

“They’ll get sort of addicted, and then we’ll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.”

Thanks for setting me straight, Texrat.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I don't think you're morally allowed to steal something you don't really need. You can steal bread if you or your family are hungry. You can't steal a game - come on you don't need it to survive.
In my humble personal opinion, though, stealing music to multibillionaire rock stars or films to multibillionaire actors isn't as unrighteous as stealing an application from a company which puts hard work of real people in it. Now throw me in jail.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Most students cry about being poor, then turn around spend $$ on iPhones, beer and Aber-whatever_is_popular_at_the_time-Fitch.

They need to learn to do what everyone else does. You save for what you need and live within your means.

Students that don't learn this in college have a good chance of growing up to be adults who also try to game the system and live beyond their means.

BTW, in college I bought PKzip (I'm probably one of like 3 people who've ever bought an unzip program). I also pay every piece of software I get from Microsoft and Adobe (painful). Why? Because all of these tools are useful. If we don't buy it who's going to make it? Seriously, like who's the software angel fairy that magically funds software companies? Just because a lot of what we see on the internet is free because of ads, that doesn't mean that the software we use on our laptops is free.

We can choose to contribute to the society as a whole or we can be a leech convincing ourselves we deserve things for free and that the man is out to get us.

I don't know the OP, but usually someone who asks that type of question is looking for someone to give him a decent enough argument to not feel bad about doing what he knows he shouldn't be doing. The people that know its wrong don't bother to ask.

My $0.02

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I know you're being sarcastic, but the industry does depend on customers who pay. If no one paid, why would the software company be around?

If no one paid for Adobe products, do you think you'd have Photoshop?

Um, you've never heard of a trial period? Most software packages have it in different forms. I mean, seriously, have you tried to be honest or do you just assume that "the man" is out to get you so your your default response is to find a warez site?

Um, that's what college is. If you can't afford the hardware / software they do provide labs where you can get access to it.

Um, companies do and that's why there are huge discounts on software like Adobe and Microsoft.

No, because most software you can use for like 30 days. That's plenty of time to kick the wheels... seriously...

This likely in a specific context, for example some emerging markets where Microsoft has not had a strong presence. That doesn't make it right.

They are not naive. They know it happens.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Rationalizing:

I see this lawn chair that i could use on my neighbour's backyard.

It looks old and i've never seen him use it at all. God, it's so dirty and unkempt, i don't think he appreciates that thing at all. I definitely could use that chair more than him. He's just bought himself that new flashy car anyway, this is chump change to him. He won't notice it gone.

I'm more worthy to own this chair than him.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Artists aren't real people and don't work hard? I didn't realize that.

What, they hum a tune before breakfast, mention it to an assistant on the way to the gym and by lunch time the money's rolling in? Niice.

In all seriousness most of the money doesn't go to the artist, they go to the label, the promoter, the agents and etc so technically you're stealing from them. Doesn't mean the artist doesn't get rich, they're just not Scrooge McDuck swimming in a pool of gold coins.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Quite apart from anything else, downloading hookey software on Windows is so damn risky these days, what with all the malware. At work we constantly see viruses detected on users laptops, and 99% of the time trace it back to the user r their family downloading and trying to install "warez".

If you are a student, and there is a requirement to use products which rely on windows, then they are usually available at big student discounts, and should be factored in as if it were any other learning tool such as textbooks.

Otherwise bang Linux on it and use the FOSS stuff. There is often good free stuff for windows as well btw.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

So there's no possibility of an honest disagreement on this? Your opinion is fact, and everyone who disagrees must be rationalizing? If you really believe that, I don't know how a rational conversation is possible, so I hope it was hyperbole.

Take a close look at what you just said. AFAICT, you justs aid buying or trading used software is theft (at least if that software is still being sold new).

Also, for it to be theft, it requires that the party you're stealing from loses something. Now admitting, for the sake of discussion, the concept of counting unrealized potential revenue as a "loss"*, consider the case that someone may not even have enough money to purchase the software they pirate -- what has the copyright holder "lost" here? Initially, they have a certain amount of physical assets (e.g. boxed software). If I don't download it, they keep all their physical assets and I don't pay them any money. If I do download it, they still keep all their physical assets, and I don't pay them any money. They didn't lose anything by my downloading it, either vs. the initial state, or vs. the hypothetical state where I didn't copy that floppy, and where there is no loss there is no theft.

*Counting unrealized potential revenue as a "loss" is a dangerous doctrine, and one should carefully consider the implications before accepting it. For instance, if I want to sell, say, some NOK stock, this doctrine allows me to claim that people selling instead of buying it, and thus lowering the price I get, are stealing from me.

Not sure what you mean here -- if you're referring to the service of distributing that good, then you'd have a point in some cases. For example, if I offer software for download to paying users, and a paying user shares their auth credentials to allow everyone on the internet to download that data, sending my bandwidth bill through the roof, sure, that's some sort of "theft of services". But if I pay for a copy, then make copies and redistribute them at my own expense, I'm not making further use of that distribution service.

If, on the other hand, you mean the service of developing the software, producing the movie, etc., then no, a copy of the resulting work does not represent that service. The company speculatively does the development on their own dime, in hopes of earning back those costs, and turning a nice profit besides, on per-unit sales and/or licensing. Oddly enough, while we're so accustomed to this business model that it feels perfectly natural, it's only sustainable by virtue of special-interests legislation and an artificial scarcity caused by the government's continuous threat of force against people who would dare copy their own property.

What I think you mean to describe, the notion that one pays, not for a copy of a speculatively produced work, but for the service of creating that work^, does form a natural and sustainable business model that would work fine in the complete absence of copyright -- but that's absolutely not the system we have in place, because until recently, it's been much easier to bribe the government.to bully everyone than to fix your business model. Sorry if it is "rationalizing", but I've never found "do as I say, or men with guns will sieze your money/throw you in jail" to be a morally persuasive argument.

The advent of computers and later the internet has dropped the high entry barrier to piracy; now that you don't need a printing press, there's a lot more would-be pirates, and it's a lot harder to force them all into compliance with an artificial business model based on artificial scarcity. The transition is still underway, but it's just possible that it'll end with a proportionate increase in enforcement being seen as infeasible or inefficient, and an industry shift to saner business models.


^Anyone remember Dark Angel? Firefly? T:SCC? In a world where people who want to see a show pay for the show's further development, no reason any or all of them couldn't have gone on for several seasons, with hiatuses if the fanbase wasn't enough for a full season every year. For software, the examples are less obvious, but the principle's the same -- if you let customers pay for what they want/need, you'll be a lot better at delivering it than if you guess/study/analyze what they want, implement it, then see if anyone will buy it. Actually, Vista might be a good software example: of what wouldn't happen.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

This is not about me wanting to justify the use of pirated media or software. Let me put it more bluntly - I have always pirated stuff and will do until i feel the time i spend on the whole process is worth more than the money i save in buying the product. I was just wondering what others thought about this topic. Infact, i really dont feel bad while i pirate music or software.... i think this depends a lot on the way you are brought up. In a country where piracy & corruption is the norm it is easy to get lost with everyone.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Yes. I purchased the student edition of the Modula2 compiler we needed, so i could skip classes.

Would you steal someone else's coursework if you didn't have time to write your own?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Hahaha. Sorry, I have to laugh. You are here in a technology forum and you are using an argument from the 80's. Look back-in-the-day when people didn't know what this new fangled electric box was for I can see the argument, but this is the year 2010 and we understand computers and digital assets like software and music and images have value.

The fact that you are on this forum and use this argument well... sad really. You should really try harder.

As for your new business models, why do you think everything is going toward advertising. Because it is increasingly difficult to pay for content and software so the only way to make money is ads to convert to hard goods.

Is that the world you really want, where everything is about ads?

Look, software is like your phone or your car or your clothes. If you want it, you save up for it and buy it. Are there poor people? Sure, but they save up for food, cars and everything else.

Isn't it convenient that the one thing people never seem to have money for is the one thing they can most easily steal?

What a coincidence.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

No, it's not ok. Copyright is copyright regardless of anyone's financial means. Let me turn that around a bit: is it ok for a developer with limited financial resources to violate the GPL?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I don't see why, aren't people allowed to change their mind? I did "share" some 8bit games back in the early eighties (well, sneakernet rather than download) but I know better now.

An excellent point. Also, is it ok for another student with limited time/financial resources/etc to copy your coursework without your consent?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Right - wrong
Ethical - unethical
Moral - immoral
Legal - Illegal

Which of these are 'flexible'?
In the way that, the situation and condition of the actor affects the judgement?

Does it matter if the offender is: poor, not as smart, comes from 'lesser' country/tribes/academic organization, not lucky, etc?

Does it matter if the 'target' is: of different race, 'richer', happier, smarter, bigger, etc?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

The question uses a loaded word with a variable meaning ("pirate"), and can't satisfactorily be answered with a simple "yes" or "no".

But the student with limited financial resources might want to read this article:

"Yorkshire vicar advises hard-pressed parishioners to shoplift"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle6964050.ece

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I voted 'no' because in principle it's wrong. It's not theft as in "stealing lunch", right, but it's still not morally right. There's another party that has something to offer and asks for money in return. If you don't have the money, you won't get it. It's as simple as that. Nobody has a right to have the software and especially in this case, not being able to afford something is not an excuse to simply take it. (I would rather say it's OK for poor people to steal food. Software is luxury. And those who 'pirate' it do have more than enough to afford it. Come on!)

So that was my answer to the question about not being able to afford it... lame excuse.

I have to admit, though, that I support so-called "pirating" (we shouldn't use the word, it supports them) as a reaction to the IP mafia. The more they influence our politicians to make laws against their own people, the more I'm inclined to hurt them the only way they understand.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

The industry has managed to come up with customers who pay, partly with threats. This is perfectly fine -- it's how the legal system works. Many software companies make most of their money from businesses that purchase their software. This is primarily because businesses have money and can be sued for illegal use of software.

I personally am not pirating any software at this time that I can think of. I have pirated software in the past, and many of my purchasing decisions have been made because I was familiar with products, having pirated them in the past. If I hadn't pirated them I would never have purchased them.

You seem to be under the impression that I am saying that no one should pay for software and that everything should be pirated. That is not the case -- not even close.

I have purchased LOTS of software that I have subsequently found USELESS. You don't seem to be crying about that. I have NEVER HEARD of a software company taking a survey about people who have bought their software and got no value from it and have THEN CONTACTED THOSE PEOPLE, APOLOGIZED, AND REFUNDED THE MONEY THEY PAID.

I think that hoodwinking people into buying something from you and delivering no value is immoral. Why don't I see any campaigns against that?

The reason is that people take it for granted -- software companies want your money for nothing, if they can get it, and customers want the software for free, if they can get it.

And that's the way it is.

Oh, by the way -- I don't HAVE Photoshop. Too expensive.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

It depends on the company whose software you're about to pirate. MS for instance who have been convicted numerous times of stealing other companies' software/technology are fair game. MS will continue to steal unless executives get jail time.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

It all depends on your situation. why should some rich kid get his college paid for and have spending money and a car and all the best software to do his work...and you just want some software so you can at least compete academically.

to me it is nothing like stealing something like someones wallet.

to me it is only moral that you should have sufficient tools to compete on an even ground.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Because of the way Microsoft forces you to buy software with a computer, I'm sure I have specifically bought quite a few copies of Windows I never used. No one seems to be concerned about that.