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-   -   NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=62984)

bugelrex 2010-09-27 00:16
NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
New York Times article with interviews of ex-Nokia Management

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/te...a.html?_r=1&hp


Seems it was internal politics and red-tape that keep Nokia from innovating. At least they actually did realize Symbian needed to be improved

Hopefully the new CEO will simply restructure and kick out all the dead weight and fanboy employees who refuse to innovate

tso 2010-09-27 01:05
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Ugh, more mobile world as seen from US myopia.

before the apple app store i had used serveral phones that came with pre-configured shortcuts to "web stores" where i could download "apps" for my phones. the payment of these would be my monthly phone bill. And this was for "featurephones". And i am sure nokia ran something similar.

As for the touchscreen phone that never happened, is that a mention of the 7700?

Also, whats up with not mentioning the N800 or N810 that was followups to the 770? Its as if the 770 was the only device in the series.

gerbick 2010-09-27 01:13
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
It's doubtful that any article will make anybody from this community happy.

So... I propose that this community writes a definitive article, with proper sources (read: not opinion) and write that up. I'm very curious to see that.

quipper8 2010-09-27 01:16
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
man, was that an article or an editorial?

so, the average person reading this article will wrongly assume:

1. that nokia touch screen phones only work with styluses
2.Nokia has never improved symbian
3.Nokia has nothing that can compete with the iphone


There was also no mention at all of :

1.the current legal battles between Nokia and Apple.
2.maemo/meego

Laughing Man 2010-09-27 01:21
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 827012)
It's doubtful that any article will make anybody from this community happy.

So... I propose that this community writes a definitive article, with proper sources (read: not opinion) and write that up. I'm very curious to see that.
What sources? That Nokia constantly favors Symbian over Maemo? I don't think we need sources to figure that one out.

imperiallight 2010-09-27 01:32
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by quipper8 (Post 827013)
man, was that an article or an editorial?

so, the average person reading this article will wrongly assume:

1. that nokia touch screen phones only work with styluses
2.Nokia has never improved symbian
3.Nokia has nothing that can compete with the iphone
They will rightly assume these things.

That nokia was late to catch on with capacitative technology is well known.

Symbian is not a competitive high end offering like it once was so in this sense it is not improved.

Nokia has nothing commercial that can come near the iPhone.

quipper8 2010-09-27 01:34
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiallight (Post 827022)
They will rightly assume these things.

That nokia was late to catch on with capacitative technology is well known.

Symbian is not a competitive high end offering like it once was so in this sense it is not improved.

Nokia has nothing commercial that can come near the iPhone.
nowhere in the article was capacitive or resistive mentioned

symbian is obviously still competitive

wow, not really

tso 2010-09-27 01:37
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiallight (Post 827022)
That nokia was late to catch on with capacitative technology is well known.
One do not need capacitive to have a finger friendly interface.

What is needed however is a UI with large targets.

matthew maude 2010-09-27 01:50
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
we need to stick to resistive, just improve on it
i need a stylus for its accuracy but multitouch needs implementing -D

quipper8 2010-09-27 01:52
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew maude (Post 827029)
we need to stick to resistive, just improve on it
i need a stylus for its accuracy but multitouch needs implementing -D
and for chinese, resistive is way better

case in point, the motorola mt810, a capacitive android phone with a flip down resistive screen(mainly for chinese input)

bugelrex 2010-09-27 01:54
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
The hopeful parts of the article do show employees recognizing shortfalls and trying to innovate... it was the management blocking projects from going forward and insisting Symbian remain unchanged as much as possible

If these types of employees are still around, the new CEO does have a chance of delivering the BEST COMMERCIALLY viable high-end phone.

gerbick 2010-09-27 02:35
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 827016)
What sources? That Nokia constantly favors Symbian over Maemo? I don't think we need sources to figure that one out.
With all of the people declaring that each and every motherlovin' article that doesn't come from some obscure website that loves every-goshdarn thing that Nokia has done is pushed aside to some USA-centric, Euro-unfriendly, or whatever else is applicable label and not one article that has facts, disputes the successes at the risk of being a bit on the edge of critiquing Nokia... well, I'm waiting on that kind of article.

Nobody wants to admit that some of Nokia's choices have been counter-intuitive and nonsensical in some aspects.

No. So let's see a counter article. Let's see somebody write an article that isn't blind praise, or blind antagonism.

That's my request.

tso 2010-09-27 02:43
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugelrex (Post 827032)
The hopeful parts of the article do show employees recognizing shortfalls and trying to innovate... it was the management blocking projects from going forward and insisting Symbian remain unchanged as much as possible
the curse of the incumbent corporation. As the managements primary mission is for the corporation to maximize profits (funneled into shareholder dividend), the bigger they grow the more risk averse they become.

I fear that the new CEO will be more conservative then Olli, as the shareholders basically had themselves his head on a platter because of falling profits.

klinglerware 2010-09-27 02:45
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tso (Post 827008)
Ugh, more mobile world as seen from US myopia.

before the apple app store i had used serveral phones that came with pre-configured shortcuts to "web stores" where i could download "apps" for my phones. the payment of these would be my monthly phone bill. And this was for "featurephones". And i am sure nokia ran something similar.

As for the touchscreen phone that never happened, is that a mention of the 7700?

Also, whats up with not mentioning the N800 or N810 that was followups to the 770? Its as if the 770 was the only device in the series.
A bit ironic that an NYT article would be considered an example of US myopia, considering that the New York Times has an Anti-American agenda (if you believe the American extremist right, that is :p).

In any case, the thrust of the article really concerns management decision-making, rather than technology. Citing a laundry list of omissions from the technology-side does not negate the main thesis of the article: Nokia's risk-averse, consensus-based, management culture of the past decade, while adequate for protecting the base business in the short-term, may not have been nimble, coherent, or decisive enough to nurture a critical mass of innovation that can drive long-term growth.

tso 2010-09-27 02:50
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by klinglerware (Post 827046)
A bit ironic that an NYT article would be considered an example of US myopia, considering that the New York Times has an Anti-American agenda (if you believe the American extremist right, that is :p).

In any case, the thrust of the article really concerns management decision-making, rather than technology. Citing a laundry list of omissions from the technology-side does not negate the main thesis of the article: Nokia's risk-averse, consensus-based, management culture of the past decade, while adequate for protecting the base business in the short-term, may not have been nimble, coherent, or decisive enough to generate the critical mass of innovation that can drive long-term growth.
Thing is that the items are paraded as examples of bad management, yet the examples given are flawed. As such one can question the validity of the article itself, as any argument made from a flawed starting point is bound to end up with a flawed conclusion.

And i am unsure how NYTs political stance colors their technology reporting.

klinglerware 2010-09-27 03:11
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tso (Post 827048)
Thing is that the items are paraded as examples of bad management, yet the examples given are flawed. As such one can question the validity of the article itself, as any argument made from a flawed starting point is bound to end up with a flawed conclusion.

And i am unsure how NYTs political stance colors their technology reporting.
The comment about the NYTs politics was an attempt at humor.

In any case, the author reached out to both ex-Nokia employees and a Nokia spokesperson for balance. Other than the share data citing ComScore and Strategy Analytics (American market research firms), all of the sources are European with an intimate understanding of Nokia's decision-making practices.

I still don't think Arja Suominen's failure to remember the touchscreen phones released before the Nokia 770 and the nicer-spec'd Internet Tablets that came afterwards really invalidates the author's main point about Nokia's management culture. Although, it can be said that Suominen's shot at the ex-Nokia's employees as being small potatoes in the Nokia world does potentially speak volumes.

tso 2010-09-27 03:28
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by klinglerware (Post 827060)
I still don't think Arja Suominen's failure to remember the touchscreen phones released before the Nokia 770 and the nicer-spec'd Internet Tablets that came afterwards really invalidates the author's main point about Nokia's management culture. Although, it can be said that Suominen's shot at the ex-Nokia's employees as being small potatoes in the Nokia world does potentially speak volumes.
Thing is we do not know how Arja presented it, as it is not a quote but a mention by the author of the article. That is, all we know is that Arja mentioned the 770 alongside the nokia patent portfolio as example that nokia is capable of innovation.

slender 2010-09-27 03:40
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 827044)
No. So let's see a counter article. Let's see somebody write an article that isn't blind praise, or blind antagonism.

That's my request.
Have you read Tommi Ahonen's blog? It's quite good.

gerbick 2010-09-27 03:42
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slender (Post 827071)
Have you read Tommi Ahonen's blog? It's quite good.
Link me, please.

slender 2010-09-27 03:47
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 827076)
Link me, please.
lmgtfy

http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/

gerbick 2010-09-27 03:51
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slender (Post 827078)
Thanks. I did say ****ing please.

techngro 2010-09-28 10:59
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
The NYTimes is just a liberal rag spouting lies...DAMNED LIES!

Nokia is the greatest phone company on the face of the planet. End of story.

The Blackberry Torch and the PlayBook are gonna revolutionize the industry. Meego is so much better than iOS or Android. Its much more powerful and has a better UI.

Nokia gives customers what they want.

Nokia FTW!

Apple, Android, NYTimes are FAIL!

:rolleyes: (Now you guys know how I feel when I read most of the posts on this board.)

longcat 2010-09-28 11:18
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techngro (Post 828260)
The NYTimes is just a liberal rag spouting lies...DAMNED LIES!
I so agree about this first line, else was tl;dr

gryedouge 2010-09-28 11:53
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
@ slender

Thanks for the link! I enjoyed
http://communities-dominate.blogs.co...-platform.html

it puts a slightly different spin on perspectives.

lemon_grass 2010-09-28 19:39
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Read the article. Have to agree with it 100%.
I kept banging on about how they should have spun out development to ninja teams who have a blank canvas and are free to do whatever they want. I wasn't the only one. But it seems taking risks was not an option.. not in the least. Nokia try to mitigate every risk and the result is.. well designed by commitee. Just get stuff out the door. But ironically this risk mitigation backfires sometimes.. just look at how delayed the N8 is..
No cutting edge method allowed. I found it totally depressing that alot of the internal tools used .NET instead of open source tools.

wmarone 2010-09-28 19:46
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techngro (Post 828260)
:rolleyes: (Now you guys know how I feel when I read most of the posts on this board.)
Right, since we're not riding along with regretting and hating ourselves (and Nokia) for buying an N900? It seems that anyone who doesn't blindly roll with the Nokia hate is immediately labeled a fanboy.

So I'm not allowed to think one way or the other, I must either be a blind fanboy or a blind hater, right?

etuoyo 2010-09-28 20:13
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by quipper8 (Post 827030)
and for chinese, resistive is way better

case in point, the motorola mt810, a capacitive android phone with a flip down resistive screen(mainly for chinese input)
Capacitive is far better for the mainstream and so Nokia need to switch to capacitive if they want to make a very successful mass market device and stay relevant at all in the mainstream rather than just the geek community.

Mentalist Traceur 2010-09-28 20:31
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by etuoyo (Post 828693)
Capacitive is far better for the mainstream and so Nokia need to switch to capacitive if they want to make a very successful mass market device and stay relevant at all in the mainstream rather than just the geek community.
*Sigh* The average consumer won't even care. You tell them capacitive is amazing, they'll cum all over themselves when they get one. You tell them resistive is amazing, they'll do the same for those.

At the end of the day, the mainstream is fickle, and more importantly, rather mindless. I mean, you're on the Maemo forum, no? You felt the N900's screen? I don't care how much firmware changes f'ed things up, that's a damn good, sensitive screen. And we already know there's Stantum screens that can do multitouch on resistive screens. Which is pretty much the only legit advantage the capacitive screen held. The average user would be more than happy with the resistive options that will soon be available, if only they actually cared about it as anything more than the words they hear ads tossing about.

The only other "advantage" is that you can't actually touch a capacitive screen with a semi-conductive surface without it registering a touch without you locking the screen first. 'cept that's really not an advantage, in my eyes. Ultimately, with resistive technology being as good as it is nowadays, they can be nearly as sensitive, and it won't be long until they are as sensitive, to human perception, as capacitive ones; and we already know that done right, they can support multitouch (vis-a-vis Stantum screens).

Texrat 2010-09-28 21:55
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 827044)
With all of the people declaring that each and every motherlovin' article that doesn't come from some obscure website that loves every-goshdarn thing that Nokia has done is pushed aside to some USA-centric, Euro-unfriendly, or whatever else is applicable label and not one article that has facts, disputes the successes at the risk of being a bit on the edge of critiquing Nokia... well, I'm waiting on that kind of article.

Nobody wants to admit that some of Nokia's choices have been counter-intuitive and nonsensical in some aspects.

No. So let's see a counter article. Let's see somebody write an article that isn't blind praise, or blind antagonism.

That's my request.
Rather hyperbolic.

It's a given that the leading trade media is located in the US (or UK) and have shown themselves to be flagrantly biased against Nokia (and many other European companies). What's so hard about highlighting Nokia errors objectively and leaving the needless sensationalism out (*cough engadget* cough gismodo cough*)? Nokia has made plenty of goofs that don't need additional embellishment by fanboys of competitors.

I get a kick out of statements lambasting Nokia defenders (some deservedly) while blithely ignoring the even more egregious acts and statements of others. But it's only fun for so long.

By the way, I've written the sort of article you seek, many times. No acknowledgment? Bummer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by etuoyo (Post 828693)
Capacitive is far better for the mainstream and so Nokia need to switch to capacitive if they want to make a very successful mass market device and stay relevant at all in the mainstream rather than just the geek community.
Geez I wish we could just get past this sort of opinion parading as fact.

etuoyo 2010-09-29 08:20
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentalist Traceur (Post 828703)
*Sigh* The average consumer won't even care. You tell them capacitive is amazing, they'll cum all over themselves when they get one. You tell them resistive is amazing, they'll do the same for those.

At the end of the day, the mainstream is fickle, and more importantly, rather mindless. I mean, you're on the Maemo forum, no? You felt the N900's screen?
Strongly disagree there. My first proper experience of a touch screen was the N97. It was a nightmare (as with everything else with the device) and I returned it after three days. I had bought it to replace my N95 and creative zen mp3. Went back to my N95 and bought an iod touch. The ipod touch screen was super amazing. In three months of owning the device I never ever made a single selection error. It just worked perfectly.

After three months my Apple hatred meant I could not take having an ipod anymore and sold it. Went back my creative zen waiting till the time the N900 came out and it could replace my zen and N95. Yes the N900 screen is good. For a resistive. For me it is still lightyears behind that of the ipod touch and I am pretty sure the general public agrees. Has nothing to do with what they have been told. Yes you can use a stylus but the general public do not even want to have to bring out a stylus. They just want to use their fingers. Yes you can do cool paint stuff but how many care?

You may feel it is US media that has pushed all manufacturers to capacitive screens but I totally disagree. That is just what works better for most. Take someone from the amazon jungle that has never seen a phone before or heard of ipod and give him an N900 and an iphone to try out. Pretty sure he will find the iphone screen easier to use.

techngro 2010-09-29 08:50
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmarone (Post 828676)
Right, since we're not riding along with regretting and hating ourselves (and Nokia) for buying an N900? It seems that anyone who doesn't blindly roll with the Nokia hate is immediately labeled a fanboy.

So I'm not allowed to think one way or the other, I must either be a blind fanboy or a blind hater, right?
Yeah..pretty much. :P

But seriously, here you have an article in which former EMPLOYEES of Nokia voice their displeasure at the direction of the company and the lack of follow through on innovative ideas. It's one thing to jump on posts in a forum that are critical of Nokia and call those ppl "trolls" and "haters", but when you can't even acknowledge that the people who speak in this article MAY have some valid points, you expose yourself as...yes...a FANBOY!

jsa 2010-09-29 08:51
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
@etuoyo

My main gripe is that the type of the screen is only one part of the overall responsiveness or "experience", which is why I'm reluctant to take a stand on which is better. I agree that N97 isn't as good as iPhone in terms of responsiveness. That however, doesn't mean that it would be if it had a capacitive screen. There's a ton of other other factors in play and when I see a good resistive screen and a good capacitive screen on otherwise same hardware running the same software, both fine-tuned I can decide which type is better.

I think this thread wasn't about TS types, so I'll just leave it here. :)

longcat 2010-09-29 09:00
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
http://www.escapecomics.com/acatalog/fanboy-1-1999.jpg

BigBadGuber! 2010-09-29 09:24
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
New York Times still thinks that Israeli raid on the Turkish ship was lawful. It's a failed newspaper with huge biases that entertain New Yorkers. Every company has internal problems, rivalries, missed opportunities. We know in N900 that NOKIA can do it. They make beautiful solid phones....they need to improve their software. And I think they will.

ysss 2010-09-29 09:36
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadGuber! (Post 829062)
We know in N900 that NOKIA can do it.
Do what???

longcat 2010-09-29 09:43
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Can do it! is a commercial paradigm that can be used in various occasions. For example :
- when you need to entertain voters with false promises telling them that they can do it!.
- when you sell Jordan sports shoes with motto - just do it!
- when you're in marketing team, and doing all that team-building crap - you can (usually) do it...

Can do it! by itself means nothing, and it's pretty much all it is.
Can do it! needs an object, predicate, which is usually by every means so irrational so it can poly-morph to anything giving great results by means of good-emotional overwhelming of masses ..

longcat 2010-09-29 09:44
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
... imho ...

ysss 2010-09-29 09:55
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by longcat (Post 829069)
... imho ...
Oh go on... you know you can!

http://mauivents.com/wp-content/uplo.../MAUIVENTS.jpg

longcat 2010-09-29 09:55
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
of course i can
http://www.yesyoucanchangetheworld.c...mage/board.gif

you can ... too

gerbick 2010-09-29 14:14
Re: NYT: Internal politics doomed Nokia
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 828767)
I get a kick out of statements lambasting Nokia defenders (some deservedly) while blithely ignoring the even more egregious acts and statements of others. But it's only fun for so long.
It annoys me to new levels that people have to go so far extreme left or right and are hardly ever correct.

Quote:
By the way, I've written the sort of article you seek, many times. No acknowledgment? Bummer.
Pfft. Hush, I know you have. Sadly it seems like you're US based yet overlooked as part of the US myopia. How does that feel?

Oh well. America... **** YEAH!

Foghorn Leghorn: That's a joke son. Get it?


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