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-   Competitors (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Winners and losers (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=69964)

rm42 2011-02-16 21:31
Winners and losers
 
http://mynokiablog.com/2011/02/11/wi...soft-alliance/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...lyst-says.html

rm42 2011-02-16 21:53
Re: Winners and loosers
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...71F1D320110216

Quote:
"Microsoft and Nokia are companies we both work with and respect, so for now we will give them the benefit of the doubt," he said. "But if their interest in the medium term is to lock up the clients in a closed system, well then we would have to go look elsewhere for an open alternative."

danramos 2011-02-16 22:46
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Android it is, then.

Radu 2011-02-17 00:22
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Or WebOS for those who are not happy with Android.

lma 2011-02-17 00:33
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rm42 (Post 948397)
Also http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13970_7-20031988-78.html. It doesn't sound promising if the operators already hate it.

GeraldKo 2011-02-17 02:04
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 948521)
Also http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13970_7-20031988-78.html. It doesn't sound promising if the operators already hate it.
As I posted before, it's not prospectively a big hit with US telecoms, either.

Quote:
“I do want a strong third OS out there,” Melone said. “It gives the carriers more flexibility and balances the interests of all the parties. But I still have doubts whether Microsoft will get the traction they are hoping for with Windows Phone 7… I don’t think Verizon needs the Nokia and Microsoft relationship,” he said. “Right now the three OS players we see for our network are Android, Apple, and RIM. ”
Gizmodo: Verizon CTO Doesn’t Need No Stinkin WP7

CNet: Microsoft's ecosystem is a tough sell to Verizon

(But I'd be shocked to hear Verizon base its disinterest in the NoWin product on its probable lack of openness. I really ought to move to France. :))

stickymick 2011-02-17 02:43
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Some pretty sober reading there. Not sure what the networks are complaining about, they're the worst for locking users into closed shops with their branding and restrictions on handset features IMO.

Still looks like the writing is on the wall though.
If things do take a drastic turn it would be a shame to see Nokia go down with those two berks at the controls.

deyons 2011-02-17 03:12
Re: Winners and loosers
 
One commenter said
Quote:
"I beg to differ from the article. Okay – NOKIA lost the high-end market, but it was inevitable with their lack of innovation, but teaming up with Microsoft can bring to them something which they were trying to get from year – the US market. "
I'm in the US and we have WP7 on HTC's and not a Fuq is givin. Now I should buy it cause it's on a Nokia? I better be able to remove it and install Maemo5 at least.

deyons 2011-02-17 03:17
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Here is another good read:
Orange warns Nokia-Microsoft against closed system
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...71F1D320110216

rm42 2011-02-17 14:35
Re: Winners and loosers
 
1 Attachment(s)
The bears are after Elop:
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php...1&d=1297952943

"mobile handset giant Nokia (NYSE: NOK) has received a distressing two-star ranking."

"Having an outsider change the corporate culture of a behemoth like this is a way tall order. I root for the CEO for his honesty, but very confident I'll bank some accuracy [CAPS points] off this one."

http://www.fool.com/retirement/gener...nge-nokia.aspx

rm42 2011-02-17 14:44
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Does some one know something I don't? The stock is plummeting today. It has already lost over a point since the day began.

rm42 2011-02-17 14:52
Re: Winners and loosers
 
This is old news by now, but relevant. So, I'll put it in this thread:

Quote:
Nokia Should Pay EUR100,000 To Staff Laid Off - Finnish Union
http://news.morningstar.com/all/dow-...ish-union.aspx

lma 2011-02-17 14:56
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rm42 (Post 948939)
Does some one know something I don't? The stock is plummeting today. It has already lost over a point since the day began.
I think the only reason it rose slightly on Tuesday was the Nokia Siemens news.

BigBadGuber! 2011-02-17 15:06
Re: Winners and loosers
 
NOKIA did the right thing. They had all the time to bring an alternative OS to the table that can compete with the rest. They didnt. Even Meego looks still infantile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C66HgRbM5K4

rm42 2011-02-17 15:23
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadGuber! (Post 948958)
NOKIA did the right thing. They had all the time to bring an alternative OS to the table that can compete with the rest. They didnt. Even Meego looks still infantile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C66HgRbM5K4
The UI is not something that Nokia seems to have given much help with to begin with. Could it be that Elop was actually trying to stop it from being too attractive?

Quote:
the first MeeGo smartphone, thought to be the N9-00, has indeed been canned. Instead, a second (and possibly last) MeeGo smartphone on the roadmap – the N9-01 – sans physical keyboard will be pushed out first, as earlier reported by Engadget.

Interestingly, well-placed sources also tell us that the device won’t feature the stock MeeGo UI but instead one designed by “a three person external team rather than any of Nokia’s hundreds of internal designers.”
http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/02/12/...-first-device/

BigBadGuber! 2011-02-17 15:40
Re: Winners and loosers
 
I dont think Elop had much to do with it. I think that he was busy learning the business and figuring out what is going on. I doubt that the first thing he did was to kill Meego. The layoffs are yet to come.

NOKIA did a brave thing as a corporation. They were outgunned and surrounded. They were losing market share big time. They had loyal followers, but all that was dwindling. They had to change, and I think, given all the possibilities, they did the right think. Remember, Elop is just one guy. The board has to agree with his decisions. The board wanted a change and they brought him in. Elop is nothing but an executor of a plan concocted by multiples within Nokia

retsaw 2011-02-17 15:52
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rm42 (Post 948967)
The UI is not something that Nokia seems to have given much help with to begin with. Could it be that Elop was actually trying to stop it from being too attractive?
Nokia were always planning to put their own UI on top of Meego, I don't see why they would want to help their competitors. Having a common base for all Meego handsets can help get more apps onto the platform, but the UI can be quite a significant differentiator between Nokia Meego and other Meego as far as what Nokia's customers see.

EDIT: And can someone please fix the topic title, it is "Losers" NOT "Loosers". I don't want to be a spelling nazi, but this misspelling of "lose" is far too common across the web, and it gets quite annoying.

stlpaul 2011-02-17 15:56
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deyons (Post 948606)
I'm in the US and we have WP7 on HTC's and not a Fuq is givin. Now I should buy it cause it's on a Nokia? I better be able to remove it and install Maemo5 at least.
Exactly, the non-USians seem to have an idea that US market wants WP7. Truth is, nobody here cares about WP7, nobody talks about it, nobody buys it. Kind of like Symbian... or Nokia for that matter.

It's all about iPhone, Android, Blackberry. In that order.

rm42 2011-02-17 16:04
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadGuber! (Post 948984)
I dont think Elop had much to do with it. I think that he was busy learning the business and figuring out what is going on. I doubt that the first thing he did was to kill Meego. The layoffs are yet to come.
I guess we'll find out one day when insiders write the next best seller: "The great northern tech war: What happened at Nokia when Elop came in."

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadGuber! (Post 948984)
NOKIA did a brave thing as a corporation. They were outgunned and surrounded. They were losing market share big time. They had loyal followers, but all that was dwindling. They had to change, and I think, given all the possibilities, they did the right think.
I don't share the idea that committing suicide in the face of possible defeat is a brave thing. They had a credible strategy with Meego + Symbian + Qt. Where there challenges ahead? Sure, but that is what the business is all about. With focus and determination they could have succeeded. Lots of investors saw it that way. They had the backing of the whole open source developer community that were just waiting for that last step device and for a clear sign from Nokia that they meant it, that they were not just playing around. (There was always something fishy about the lack of commitment and marketing behind the N900.) Companies have been able to pull it off with much more dire prospects. They lacked the guts to stick to their plan and make it happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadGuber! (Post 948984)
Remember, Elop is just one guy. The board has to agree with his decisions. The board wanted a change and they brought him in. Elop is nothing but an executor of a plan concocted by multiples within Nokia
That I do not dispute. He is just the hand waving puppet.

rm42 2011-02-17 16:16
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by retsaw (Post 948992)
Nokia were always planning to put their own UI on top of Meego, I don't see why they would want to help their competitors. Having a common base for all Meego handsets can help get more apps onto the platform, but the UI can be quite a significant differentiator between Nokia Meego and other Meego as far as what Nokia's customers see.
Fine. But how do you explain the tiny outsourced UI team?

rm42 2011-02-17 16:39
Re: Winners and losers
 
More bear news:

http://www.favstocks.com/nokia-corpo...-sell/1733521/

rm42 2011-02-17 18:55
Re: Winners and losers
 
Nokia's disgruntled employees are being offered jobs by Google and Skype:

http://www.gearlog.com/2011/02/nokia...k_out_by_t.php

http://www.gearlog.com/2011/02/skype..._nokia_emp.php

rm42 2011-02-17 19:04
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Motorola Shuts Door On Windows Phone 7

“I don’t envision us using Microsoft. I would never say never but it’s not something we’re entertaining now,” said Wyatt. The company proudly boasts of being 100% committed to Android and believes that Microsoft’s “closed” OS prevents them from “creating unique value”.
http://www.everythingwm.com/motorola...-7/2011/02/15/

GeraldKo 2011-02-17 19:12
Re: Winners and losers
 
Talk about losers! This from Engadget's interpretation of a Phone Scoop interview with Nokia VP Savander:
Quote:
Turns out (or at least Savander claims) that Nokia's essentially being granted carte blanche for deep customization of the platform, though it's likely only to do that by pushing changes back to Microsoft for inclusion in future releases that would be available to every manufacturer, not just Nokia.
So Nokia is free to do R&D that it then gives to Microsoft, which, of course, would have absolute discretion about including it, and which is then on every manufacturer's Windows phone.

I think the Engadget interpretation may be off the mark (maybe Nokia gets to put stuff on top of Windows Phone, unlike other licensees?), but if it's accurate ...

rm42 2011-02-17 19:18
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeraldKo (Post 949129)
Talk about losers! This from Engadget's interpretation of a Phone Scoop interview with Nokia VP Savander:


So Nokia is free to do R&D that it then gives to Microsoft, which, of course, would have absolute discretion about including it, and which is then on every manufacturer's Windows phone.

I think the Engadget interpretation may be off the mark (maybe Nokia gets to put stuff on top of Windows Phone, unlike other licensees?), but if it's accurate ...
That is the way it sounds. This link below is a long article written by a Windows lover. I thought it was interesting to read his perspective. As to what you bring up, this is what his article says:

Quote:
Ballmer said that Nokia will work with Microsoft to "push hardware advances" that will apply to new versions of the base Windows Phone platform spec. But Nokia will also do its own unique hardware advances--and software services--that will help the company differentiate its products from competitors (which are other Microsoft partners). So this isn't like open source. Not everything Nokia does is being driven into the core platform. Nokia-based Windows Phones will instead be a superset of the basic Windows Phone experience. This is true of all phone makers, it's just that Nokia is all channeling some changes back into the core product too.
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...-Alliance.aspx

The assimilation is now complete. :eek:

ericsson 2011-02-17 19:47
Re: Winners and losers
 
I am starting to get fed up with this nonsense.

Quote:
Samsung must be celebrating hard right now, it is obvious now that they will become the largest Handset maker in the world and dethrone Nokia, because the transition that is taking place from Symbian to WP7 will simply take too long for Nokia to respond.
What planet is this dude living on?

Nokia going WP is hardly mentioned in the news outside the bubbles of the tech media involved in mobile phones. 95% of the current Nokia owners don't care and don't know. Of the 5% that do now, only 5% care.

In less than a year, all the 3-400 millions of Symbian owners (Nokia smartphone owners) will see a better UI on the new Nokia phones. A UI that is smooth, and with services that are equally smoothly integrated. Does it run WP? of course it does. Do the 95% of the current Symbian users care? No. WP, Symbian, MeeGo, Android, it doesn't matter.

rm42 2011-02-17 19:59
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 949154)
In less than a year, all the 3-400 millions of Symbian owners (Nokia smartphone owners) will see a better UI on the new Nokia phones.
Correction: Symbian phones are not "smart phones" they are "mobile phones". Elop himself categorizes them that way. The only Nokia smart phone owners at the moment are running Maemo. And you know what they are NOT going to be running in a year, two years, or more likely, ever.

Correction to the correction:

Actually, I am not sure that I understood correctly. Maybe he was just referring to the S40 phones as "mobile phones". See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6pHR...mbedded#at=256

In any case, I think that people who are looking for smart phones do care about what the OS on their phone is.

Peet 2011-02-17 21:08
Re: Winners and losers
 
Glyn Moody's Open Enterprise Blog / Computerworld UK

Nokiasoft: Who are the Open Source Winners and Losers?

retsaw 2011-02-17 23:44
Re: Winners and loosers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rm42 (Post 949017)
Fine. But how do you explain the tiny outsourced UI team?
Good question. Apparently have been working on a UI, but for some reason they decided to scrap it and go for something different. Why use an out-sourced team? I haven't a clue, it could be just a rumour, although it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

ericsson 2011-02-18 05:41
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rm42 (Post 949158)
In any case, I think that people who are looking for smart phones do care about what the OS on their phone is.
No, most people have no clue and no idea and no desire to know. Smartphones aren't what they used to be. Smartphones used to be Symbian, windows mobile and palm, but most of all Symbian. A small percentage, mostly geeks used them, less than 10 percent of all phones. Today 25 percent are smartphones, and that percentage is groing fast. Smartphones today are glorified dumbphones with large touch screens running apps. People want "one with touch screen and apps". Then they know Nokia, Samsung, SE, iPhone, HTC and so on. You have to remember that all Android phones give users a unique user experience, Samsung is different from HTC and so on, but every smartphone runs Angry Birds (Symbian, iPhone and Android).

Also remember what happened to the google phone, DOA, people didn,t like it even though it was high end specs and "pure" Android, they would much rather have HTC and Samsung.

danramos 2011-02-18 09:54
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 949462)
Also remember what happened to the google phone, DOA, people didn,t like it even though it was high end specs and "pure" Android, they would much rather have HTC and Samsung.
Which "pure" Android phone are you talking about that people didn't like? There have been several reference devices that have had the "pure Google experience", if that's what you mean. Like the G1, The Droid, The Nexus 1, the Nexus S and the Xoom. Soooooo... which one is it that the people didn't like? I'm not sure that any of them were disliked. For that matter, the Nexus 1 was made by HTC and the Nexus S was made by Samsung, sooooo... yeeaah... what the hell are you talking about? heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by stickymick (Post 948594)
If things do take a drastic turn it would be a shame to see Nokia go down with those two berks at the controls.
Agreed. Also--you TOTALLY just outed yourself as a Brit by calling them berks. :) Most people around the world would have NO idea what that means (or the history of the term). Luckily, I watch IT Crowd and I had to try looking it up. heh.. classic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 949154)
I am starting to get fed up with this nonsense.
What planet is this dude living on?

Nokia going WP is hardly mentioned in the news outside the bubbles of the tech media involved in mobile phones. 95% of the current Nokia owners don't care and don't know. Of the 5% that do now, only 5% care.

In less than a year, all the 3-400 millions of Symbian owners (Nokia smartphone owners) will see a better UI on the new Nokia phones. A UI that is smooth, and with services that are equally smoothly integrated. Does it run WP? of course it does. Do the 95% of the current Symbian users care? No. WP, Symbian, MeeGo, Android, it doesn't matter.
First--you're wrong. That Nokia+Microsoft love-in was plastered all over the financial papers (yes, even in the US) and then all over the mainstream press (albeit as small news) and, near as I can tell from walking around the ordinary Luddite mendicants that meander our streets and shopping centers, I can tell you that most of them don't care (I rarely.. RAAARELY see a Nokia device at all anymore) and of the people that I bother to grace with my presence and speech, they appear to be aware of what happened but they were far too happy with their current iPhone, Android, etc. to really "give a f___" about it, since it doesn't concern them.

It would seem, then, that even in the outliers of Nokia's influence, people seem to know about what happened and really don't care. So you're about half-right.. but that also made you half-wrong. :)

ericsson 2011-02-18 10:16
Re: Winners and losers
 
@danramos. As far as I'm concerned (and the rest of the world) you are from the land of enslaved phone users, tied up on on hands and feets, blinded and muted by the operators. So really you don't have much valuable to say.

I think it was the Nexus 1, the HTC model. It sold a few hundred k in the US but nothing elsewere in the free world. It only shows, Android is not it, it is the names of Samsung, HTC and SE that sell phones.

The same will happen to WP. Nokia will sell, if for no other reason than for the half way (at best) commitment from the others. Nokia show full comittment, and that is what counts. I have alwas said that I'm not sure how they will sell in the US, but elsewhere it will be a blast.

Capt'n Corrupt 2011-02-18 11:04
Re: Winners and losers
 
Install Ubuntu on the handset and be done with it.

AMLJ 2011-02-18 11:08
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt'n Corrupt (Post 949625)
Install Ubuntu on the handset and be done with it.
Ubutnut:(..........

rm42 2011-02-18 14:20
Re: Winners and losers
 
Subcontractors:

http://www.automatedtrader.net/real-...strategy-shift

lma 2011-02-18 14:28
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rm42 (Post 949767)
Ixonos, ok, I can see that. But Salcomp (a charger maker)?! Don't WP7 phones need charging?

rm42 2011-02-18 14:58
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 949773)
Ixonos, ok, I can see that. But Salcomp (a charger maker)?! Don't WP7 phones need charging?
They will, sometime in 2008. Nokia hopes.

patstew 2011-02-18 14:58
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 949773)
Ixonos, ok, I can see that. But Salcomp (a charger maker)?! Don't WP7 phones need charging?
To be charged, a phone needs to be bought first ;)

rm42 2011-02-18 16:12
Re: Winners and losers
 
This is a rather extensive analysis of the 'deal'. It was already posted on another thread, but it quickly got buried and I don't think a lot of people saw it. Bottom line, this how things will look in the fourth quarter for Microkia:

Quarter . . . Market Share . . . Unit Sales . . . . ASP . . . . . Total:
Q4 2011. . 12% . . . . . . . . . . 17 M . . . . . . . . 116 Euro . . 2.0B Euro

http://communities-dominate.blogs.co...4e861902e7970d

danramos 2011-02-18 20:48
Re: Winners and losers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 949590)
@danramos. As far as I'm concerned (and the rest of the world) you are from the land of enslaved phone users, tied up on on hands and feets, blinded and muted by the operators. So really you don't have much valuable to say.
Oh I see, first you say that the Nokia+Microsoft lovefest is barely mentioned outside of the tech media, then dismiss it when somebody points out how it is.. even in the worst case outlier region that you yourself even openly admit that it is within that very same dismissal. Spin spin spin. I won't argue about the hog-tied consumers, though, but you fail to convince me that Nokia has made anything that could solidly compel consumers away from these competing devices, even with that hobbling hog-tie and blindfold. With this latest development of Nokia and Microsoft bumping uglies, it just makes a bad situation far worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 949590)
I think it was the Nexus 1, the HTC model. It sold a few hundred k in the US but nothing elsewere in the free world. It only shows, Android is not it, it is the names of Samsung, HTC and SE that sell phones.
Ah yes, the Nexus 1 didn't sell well. That clearly means Android, the whole platform, is clearly a failure. heheh I would also argue that Samsung's other non-Android phones didn't seem to sell quite as well as the Android ones, so I walk away with a far different understanding than yours. I still find it ironic, then, that Nokia/Ovi has been increasingly relegated to the "Other" category in most statistics gathering piecharts. (i.e. the latest SD Times (software development magazine), issue 262 (Feb 2011) article on "Rise of the Androids")

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 949590)
The same will happen to WP. Nokia will sell, if for no other reason than for the half way (at best) commitment from the others. Nokia show full comittment, and that is what counts. I have alwas said that I'm not sure how they will sell in the US, but elsewhere it will be a blast.
When has Nokia shown full commitment to anything,though?


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