Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

I got me a nice old workstation (x86) and want to slap Linux on it for Maemo5 SDK/Cross Compiler. Which Linux should I use? Debian, or ubuntu, or another one? I used to be slackware fan but atm I dont have any Linux box...

Thanks

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Ubuntu is more user-friendly plus there's already scratchbox environments pre-made using ubuntu. However if you don't mind working with command line and getting things to work, etc. Debian may also suit you.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

I like debian, and use it on a PC, but it can be more work to set up than ubuntu - which has great support for all sorts of hardware, with lots of drivers. I have installed ubuntu on several PC's, laptops & one netbook between 10 & 1 year old and never had a problem.

Mish.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Are those the ubuntu images nokia is hosting?

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Linux Mint is the one I'm currently recommending. Personally, I'd favour the Linux Mint Debian Edition because I actually use Mepis which is Debin based and compatible. As is LMDE.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Fedora.
It has well matured enforcing SElinux and is therefore more secure.
Also it uses LSB-standardized RPM-packet management, like Meego.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

It will be a bit of a pain getting the deb repositories for the Maemo SDK working with it though. Doesn't mean you couldn't get the SDK running on it, it'll just be more hassle to set up than a Debian/Ubuntu based distro.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

For this one thing, they may work the same... Overally though, ubutnut sucks... Use Debian.

With no doubt, Debian is the best OS.

Things like Ubuntu are Debian's children, with a layer/layers of crap on them, which sometimes make them totally different.

Fedora and Ubuntu are out there, so that Red Hat and Debian would get better... So I suggest you don't use them at all.

I saw something about SELinux... Actually, I'm using that too... Those are things you can add to any distro which has a new kernel. But you can't change the basic architecture of a distro.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

SELinux can be pain in a *** if it is not well integrated and matured in the OS. I've followed Fedora-versions a long time, and it took them years to get SELinux working. It is not just installing it on some distro, because all the desktop and other applications have to be SELinux aware and if 3rd party developers do not care about SELinux there is always problems and usually for esxample in Ubuntu SELinux is disabled because it causes that much problems. In Fedora SELinux really works.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Yes from here: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-d...-downloads.php

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Fedora uses default SELinux policies, which you can get on Debian as well. (not sure about ubutnut)

It doesn't work "really". They just want to say that they have installed it for you, but they haven't. Installing SELinux is not hard, neither is using the default policies. The hard part, is choosing wise policies as an admin...
If one is concerned about security, they should never use a distro like Fedora.
Debian is the best choice for getting security. Red Hat is not bad, but still, Debian is more stable.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

I consider deb-based distributions unsafe as long as they use deb-package system and people use dpkg to install packages even once. Like we see in talk.maemo.org many people does it.

I find it plain stubbornness that Debian doesn't change to rpm-package system, because rpm is recommended by LSB and it is technically better than deb. RPM-system uses transactions and GPG signatures are embedded in the software packages, which in practice seem to be more secure way because quite often people install packages using wget, ftp or usb-stick transfer and without embedded GPG-signature there is a much higher risk of Trojans to get in the system without noticing.

It doesn't really matter to end users cosmetically what package system is in use, so I do not just understand the stubbornness of Debian developers. It wouldn't make Debian systems worse, but it would make Linux distributions more compatible with eachothers.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

*cough*OpenSSH*cough*

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Debian users either download packages from debian.org, which you can trust, or using apt-get and aptitude.

And even though I find deb better than rpm in many ways, there are more important factors for choosing a distro, and saying which one is better, than the package manager.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

No, you cannot trust just a hostname. Ever heard of MITM attacks? For example maemo repositories are not even behind https.

My stubbornness argument stays. I never heard any rational or technical reasons why deb-systems insist to stay using deb and be somewhat incompatible from rest of the LSB-systems.

Also in Fedora (and all Linux distros) there are applications developed in deb-based system, and I feel little insecure when I know those same developers do install software packages without checking for authentication correctly. (I've seen it happen here in talk.maemo.org also).

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Yes, like choosing one that doesn't have package maintainers that introduce security holes by patching things they don't understand. ;)

For the record, I use Ubuntu 9.10 on my netbooks and Archlinux on my desktop/MythTVbox, and I set up the Maemo SDK in a Ubuntu-based VM on my desktop (although I haven't done anything with it yet).

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Debian doesn't need to do what is standard... It was one of the first 3 distros which were made, and which are bases of GNU/Linux.
Right now, it is still the most secure, most stable, and the most reasonably-free distro.

I suggest pure Debian to everyone... Well, because I like you all, but it's sometimes a bad idea...

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Ah, I started out with Slackware too. :) I don't think you would have too much trouble with any of the various flavors of Linux, but the Nokia guys do mention the Ubuntu distribution by name; so, odds are they've done all their testing with that one.

I currently use Fedora on most of my boxes, but I went ahead and installed Ubuntu on one of them specifically for use with the SDK; I figured it'd be good to get some experience with a Debian-based distribution. (Although I am a long time supporter of open source software, I have never been a real fan of Richard Stallman, and the Debian folks seem way way way too shrill in their support of all things Stallman. At least in Fedora land, you're still allowed to say "Linux" without being forced to prepend "GNU" to it...)

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Well, it's wrong, and that's the reason some Debian users don't like it. Linux is the kernel, not the OS... Debian gives you an option of using GNU/kFreeBSD too, although I prefer Linux to to its better development, and better hardware support.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Its only wrong if you are coming from the GNU side, for everyone else its perfectly viable. The fact there is such a big debate what is the right way to refer to Linux is proof enough to me that there is no wrong/right way, its just the GNU folks spitting their dummies out because want the recognition for making Linux what it is today. I'm not saying they do not deserve that recognition, but if its at the cost of confusing the end-users and as such stifling the use of Linux by novices, they are just hurting themselves in the long run.

By their logic Ubuntu is GNU/Linux but Maemo or DD-WRT is not, because they are using BusyBox and so the core OS may not be using GNU at all. Exactly how much GNU codebase do we need to be running to call it GNU/Linux? What should we call Maemo and DD-WRT? By branding them all as Linux you get the point across, that they are for all intents are purposes the same tools, even if the underlying code might be from different sources. The end user doesn't need to know if they are using GNU coreutils or not and in fact it just confuses them. Do we really want to get back to the confusion of the DOS ages? That won't help anyone.

I mean just think, its perfectly possible to start off with a none-GNU Linux (is Maemo an example of this?) and then turn it into GNU/Linux by installing the GNU coreutils, etc. That is just plain confusing and should not mean you suddenly have to refer to your distribution differently unless its specifically relevant to a problem you are having. If that is the "right" way to do things, I am happy to be doing it wrong.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Not true, no problem at all.
I just used the GUI installer on my Fedora and it worked very well. Note that SELinux must be disabled before installing the SDK but can be reenabled afterwards.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

I personally don't like their ideas very much, but it's stupid to call the OS Linux anyway... Well, if it's a shortcut, it's OK, but from what you wrote, I think you don't realize what important things GNU has done...

The OS you are probably using, and I am using on my PC, N900 and servers I work on, is GNU. For me I can say Debian, which means Debian GNU/(Linux OR kFreeBSD OR whatever the kernel is).

Right now, developers are doing most stuff, so we can't say all packages are for GNU, but think of all the licenses... Where does GPL come from?

Saying Linux is not right... If you know that it's a shortcut, it's cool... But people are starting to forget what the OS they are using is, and that's bad...

I'm also against saying something like Debian GNU.. That's totally wrong, because you are not mentioning the kernel, which plays a very important role.

Maemo is based on the standard gcc library.

If you like to say Linux, do so, but personally I'd like to let people whom I think deserve it, know about the fact that it's GNU/Linux, not Linux.

Think of it as a Maemo-guy, giving info to another Maemo-guy.;)

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Well, yeah, Linux is the kernel. Just like X11 is the display system, or vi (or emacs) is the editor. GNU is not a piece of software, it is an organization; stamping GNU onto the name "Linux" is more of a subtle piece of political spin, and I just don't like it.

Linus Torvalds put together his little operating system on his own time with his own effort, and then just released it into the wild and let people play with it. At the time, the BSD guys were trying to maintain their fork of Unix by keeping total control over the code within a small group of developers, and the GNU group were trying to dump Unix and come up with an entirely new kernel of their own. Andy Tannenbaum had produced Minix and pretty much allowed anyone to use it, but only under a very restrictive education-only license. So there were many different kernels floating around out there.

And that's the funny thing; you're entirely right, since then Linux has had better development, and better hardware support. Most designers of both free and commercial software seemed to assume that it was necessary to keep an iron grip over the code; but it was Linus' much more free version of freedom that won the day. Ultimately, the open source movement truly coalesced around Torvalds and the Linux kernel, not Stallman and the various GNU-related utilities.

Anyway, these are ancient political battles. :) It probably doesn't matter what people use to name these products today, but I'm old enough to feel annoyed that the GNU guys are still trying to claim ownership over Linux...

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Linux didn't make an OS... He just made the kernel.. A tiny piece of code, which can do very little without the OS.
Same is on GNU's side... They made a big, but useless OS...
Combination of 'em, makes a powerful thing.

Anyhow, I just care about what is right, and as long as I'm using my Debian Squeeze with Linux kernel, I'll use one of the following to address it:
Debian
Debian GNU/Linux

If I ever decide to use the BSD kernel, which I don't like very much, I'll address it using one of the following names:
Debian
Debian GNU/kFreeBSD

;)

Have fun guys!:cool:

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

GNU tool provide standard command for command line use.
BusyBox provides simplified versions of the utilities and usually have same command but not have enough command option(switch) .:mad:

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

As I said stubbornness.
"Doesn't need to follow standards because we were first."

That kind of attitude will keep MS Windows strong in home desktop and game scene always. Linux-distributions differentiate too much on wrong things, like non following standards for childish reasons, which wouldn't even matter cosmetically to normal end user.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

Please guys, I just want a linux box for the Maemo SDK/CC. No need to start the old "which distro is better" war over this again.
If Nokia provides ready made ubuntu distro, then I'll use that.
My main box is Windows and unfortunatly has to stay so for work related reasons. (Work specific software)
Thanks for all the useful replies.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

If anyone ever said to me "I think you mean GNU plus Linux" and they were actually serious, I would have to laugh hard in their face. I've been using it exclusively for five years on every computer I own and a lot of my job is based on it but honestly. That's pathetic.

Also OP. Install gentoo. I wouldn't dream of anything else. Except maybe the BSD's and one day I'd like to give slackware a spin.

Don't listen to them trolling about legacy RPM's

viva la ports

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

I'm not aware Nokia provides an ubuntu distro - but the install procedures here apply to debian and ubuntu.

Can you feedback how it went for you. I followed the procedures here for ubuntu, and it threw up quite a few errors, warned me of unverified downloads, and comments about being 'haxored'. I'm going to try it again on my debian box to see what happens.

Tks,

Mish.

Re: Debian or ubuntu or what?
 

The link to the ubuntu images by Nokia is at the bottom of page 1.

EDIT:
Meh crap they are virtual images....
Gonna install normal ubuntu then. Or debian. Will decide tmrw...