Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Hi Folks! :)

Does anybody know how the "package manager" at Android works?
Is there really a package manager working in the background or is this only a dumb Download and uninstall Application?

I ask because I've seen how fast this at Android works compared to the N900.
If I run apt-get update at Maemo (with activated extra-devel) it's downloading about 16 MB! At Android it seems to me that it was not very much traffic. (I was unable to check this)

But compared to Maemo it were a lot more Applications in this "Store".

Does anyboy know a little bit about the background how this works at Android compared to Maemo?

I ask here at maemo.org because I would say we have here many technically adept guys around with a lot of knowlage regarding Linux and Nitroid. I hope for a straight answer with a lot of technical fundamentals. :)

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

What are you talking about? What "package manager" are you talking about on the Android side? Are you referring to the Android Market? If so, you might want to just casually swing by the Android development site (http://developer.android.com), not talk.maemo.org. I'm not sure how you thought Market development questions would be best answered here.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

A dumb package manager = Market Place?

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

The "market" is really just something that looks like a cool web interface with a big "search" button.

We could probably build something like that for maemo assuming we have a webserver available somewhere...

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

But... why? Would you really want something like an Android Market on Maemo, if you already have what seems to be a far better debian package manager? Maybe a colorful clown-suit for Application Manager would make better sense?

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Maemo obviously needs a Hot Dog Stand theme.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

I am not absolutely sure but I think that the android market just downloads a file (.apk) and places it on a certain directory (maybe it puts a file or two for reference in other places so that menu items are created). On the other hand, apt is a package manager for linux. It checks and fulfills dependencies, puts the right files on the right location, configures the installation, backs up old installation files, sets up initialisation scripts etc.
On the other hand the reason you get 16mb of download when you run apt-get update is because the phone downloads the whole list of available applications on the device. The package manager needs it to check for dependencies and to provide info about the apps (apt-cache search)

And in reply to the next posters, app downloader does the market job more than adequately
________
LIVE SEX

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Thanks a lot qwazix for your reply. I thought it could be something like that but I was myself not sure.

And to the others, my intention was not to rant about the Debian packet manager. My intention was to understand the difference.

Perhaps http://developer.android.com is a better place. But I don't know if there are people, reminding what a real packet manager really does... and I thought this community here is more professional and able to explain objective what the difference is.

And trust me! I don't want a dumb but shiny website shown in something that calls itself "Application Manager". I hate the OVI store for this fact that I have to visit this buggy website. I love how clever apt and dpkg handles the installation on my Device. Not only as a Developer but also as a normal User. We don't need more than our frontend for userfriendly handling of apt-get and dpkg. For those which needs more information is http://maemo.org/packages/ the right place.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Still works better than HAM.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

In a way you're comparing apples and oranges.
The repo's have been a linux feature for many years. It wouldn't make sense for a lot of phones to have them so they use things like a web frontend for it.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Application/package manager is built-in feature in Android.
You can install .apk event without internet connection established. It's similar to "dpkg -i whatever.deb" ("adb install whatever.apk" in Android). But Android doesn't download/store huge indexes. May be Market is some sort of frontend... nevermind... it's better than load tons of (almost) useless data.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

The only problem with apt in Maemo is that it doesn't download diff updates. I don't know it it's just a matter of server configuration.

Debian is actually using this feature and an apt-get update only fetches a few kb.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

heheh... no. :) deb packages do a tad more than apk's.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

I think you don't quite understand the current definition of a package manager. These days if you can't download applications from a repository and install them generally with a single action, minimally on the command line, then you don't have a package manager.

Android is not capable of doing:

aptitude search <whatever>
aptitude install <whatever>

If someone were to include that particular ability in Android you'd end up with the same amount of overhead as every other real package manager out there. "adb install whatever.apk" is roughly analogous to C:\setup.exe in a command box on Windows.

Prior to being able to do your "adb install whatever" you will have spent probably more time searching for the application through obscure websites, and then saving it to your device than if you just used a package manager to do the hard work for you.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Erm.. ok, I know you meant well but you seem to misunderstand it a bit. You CAN search the market's entire repository (whether it's a CLI or a GUI hardly matters when it comes to the basic operation). It can also, clearly, install.

The difference between the Android Market and a package manager is that Android Market isn't DOING very much more than downloading an "apk" file and placing it into a specific install location and then tracking that that download had been made no that device. The apk isn't unzipped, processed or anything. The apk is loaded and run the same way any zipped up "jar" file in Java is loaded and run. A Debian package manager has to download, decompress, examine and process a package in addition to placing the decompressed files into their appropriate locations relative to the root. Processing the package includes running any dependency checks, pre-deploy scripts, post-deploy scripts and so on.

There's clearly far more to a package manager than downloading and dropping a file. The advantage of the Android Market is that it generally "just works" in a sandbox riddled virtual machine environment like Android. The advantage of Debian package management is that it can work "outside the box" and perform operations ANYWHERE in the OS as root and even intelligently process OS config files and do ANY useful things that a package needs to do. The disadvantage to the Market is that it can only really do things to applications--never really touching the OS in other paths in the system (although there are tricks to get around that, mind you--but it's still difficult, generally). The disadvantage to Debian is that it requires a strict discipline to be followed and makes it more complicated and would make it less secure if a repository snuck in.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

I guess for me, at basic levels of operation efficiency is by far one of the more important metrics for any system. This encompasses both GUI and CLI.

.apk files are very similar to zip files. They do get decompressed. This aspect is very similar to your regular .deb file, though like you say, a .deb file can be as simplistic as file extraction to a single directory or intricately complex, it's a choice. Choice is good.

Agree entirely on your last paragraph good sir.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Heh.

RTFM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian (look what's package manager. it's dpkg, it can't help you to search for smth). What you really use for searching - is not _package_manager_ itself.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Since you invoked R.T.F.M.:

You're being myopic and therefore technically erring in your attempt to correct his definition. You're effectively focusing on the core of the package management system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dpkg) but excluding the front-end of said package management system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptitude_%28software%29).

Please begone with you and join another discussion to which you might hopefully participate more constructively. :)

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Market is front-end too. It can't search in offline, but who cares... Android is reach for applications, indexes should be too huge.

Yea. I make deb-packages (and get paid for it; it's part of my work).
Do you know there're some deb-based Linux distros with only dpkg installed (embedded systems)? What's your point - they do have package management or not?

>Please begone with you and join another discussion to which you might hopefully participate more constructively.
And I'm working with Android a lot too. It's better (for me) discuss with someone who know _both_ systems, not just his own swamp.

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

And that doesn't address the fact that aptitude CAN search repositories and is PART of package management. Score.;)

Well played. Well played. ;)

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Grumpy *** people today!

Re: Android: Package Manager ?!
 

Your face is a grumpy ***.