[Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Hey Guys,

this might have been discussed before, but I can´t find anything related...

Most threads are about users reporting bugs / problems and asking for help or features.
Many issues are posted multiple times, resulting in endless threads with repeating posts that are hard to read. Answers already there are not found, very same questions are posted again and again. Users give up, don´t search anymore at all, making the problem even worse...

Would it be possible to add a "Sticky Post" to each thread that always appears before the newest post?

In this post the OP (and maybe everyone with a certain number of posts and/or thanks) may maintain a list of known issues and the related solutions...
(Something like a "Micro Wiki" ;-) )

Example:
I think this might be a way to reduce thread size as well as frustration among users...

What do you think? Possible?

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

But you're assuming that these offenders will read the sticky posts. They don't - instead choosing to jump straight in and create a new thread ignoring any existing threads, sticky or not.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

I think thats a good idea it would help stop repeated threads common if i had 1 pound for every n900 memory corrupt / read only i would be richer than bill gates
P.M a mod and see what they reply

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

The current system has disadvantages that won't be solved by constantly spamming outselves not to offend against it.

It is not ideal to force a newbie to post his question on page 37 of a thread and then scold him because he doesn't know something that was clearly stated on page 8, then again on 14 and 24.

I don't think there is a really great way to fix things; nagging all of us for the offences committed by a few of us isn't my idea of an improvement.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Hard moderation. Proven to work on many many many forums.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Yes, it 'works' by scaring people into shutting up so their problems literally disappear. I think that light moderation is working well here. 'Prove' that it isn't, since you know so much about what has been proven.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

The main reason many of these threads reach 37 pages is that people keep asking questions that have already been answered either:

1. On the same page of the thread.
2. In the first post of the thread, which devs often update following a new release.
3. In the changelog for the application, which users should read before installing updates.

Users should be prepared to accept a degree of personal responsibility (i.e. doing a bit of basic research and submitting proper bug reports) when installing software from extras-devel/testing. Otherwise they should stick to the stable software in extras, or at least refrain from complaining when they get their fingers burnt.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

The idea is of merit but I believe a better solution might be to wiki-up solutions, rather than leave them languishing in tmo for people only to find with power search. What's more, wiki articles can be written in an all-encompassing instruction like manner, and added to if need be, whereas threads by their nature jump around with different people responding to different questions. It's up to us all to add the FAQ to wiki articles, especially if they're instructions.

Refering to Post #1 specifically, the troubleshooting page certainly needs some expansion. For example, the useful tip to sort out corrupt files isn't there (see post #3 of 72799). And, I've long thought a glossary would be very useful.

Incidentally, the info on how to create a new wiki article doesn't seem that up to date. The page is still a "draft" version and I can't find a way to create a blank wiki page the "create public document instructions don't quite fit with the links available (where's the "folder" button/link?).

Edit - addition: it would be useful if those asking for help in a new thread, would add the prefix [SOLVED] to the thread title so when others are searching for a how-to that's not in the wiki, it would be clear what worked and what didn't. Could a message to this effect be applied to the thread-start page?

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

One problem...The wiki is a dogshit of a mess.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Thanks everyone for your opinions!

Please let me clarify my thoughts and sum up a bit what was answered so far...

First, my intention was reducing repeating requests/posts within one thread blowing it up into one useless swamp...
Of course, in the end, an easier way to find answers might also reduce the number of redundant threads, at least that`s what I hope ;-)

Yes, I "assume" they read the sticky post before posting!
Heck, many users don´t read the last 3 or 4 posts, but hopefully they will at least read the one at the top of a thread! Especially when its specially marked and users get used to find answers there...one day hopefully ;-)

Exactly, thats why I suggest to collect the answers from page 8, 14 and 24 on a sticky post that appears always BEFORE the newest one...

Well, we want testers and participation in development, right? Hence, problems and and questions are inevitable...
Reporting of bugs is also welcome, but reporting a bug once is enough.
Unfortunately reality shows it doesn´t work as in the "perfect world" described by you. Training everyone to follow the rules of "bug reports" and "search before you post" seems to be a hopeless project to me. Just trying to find a workaround and have a cleaner more enjoyable and useful TMO.

Mentioned alternatives:
1) Changelog
Well, we all know people are lazy and don´t check changelog. Further changelog is not helpful to describe workarounds, known problems etc....
2) Post #1
Very close concept, but with 2 disadvantages:
First, users are too lazy to check Post #1 or simply don´t know that they can find answers there.
Second, not all OP´s follow the idea of updating Post #1 with relevant information and only OP´s CAN do that!
3) Wiki-Page
Sure, a wiki is the most powerful solution in case someone takes the effort of creating and updating AND users actually know there is one and where to find it...
In case someone takes the effort to create one, the sticky post can still be used to point users to the wiki page...

Would be nice if a mod could share his opinion and let us know if something like this is possible at all...

EDIT: Reported this thread, asking mod for feedback...

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

One idea.
Wiki markup gives headache to most/some (probably most) users and in contrary editing first message / posting new message is much easier. (Simple WYSIWYG and familiar editing system since dawn of vbulletin)

So there should be same markup between wiki and vbullettin markup. Some WYSIWYG editor or some easy way to export messages to wiki.

And maybe the BIGGEST reason why we do not see wiki much extensive editing is our user-base that is divided between maemo.org and talk.maemo.org. On that second when user is asked to register again after registering TMO probably most of people just leave it there and think WTF!

Easy, Fast, Simple.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

As I said before, a wiki is the most powerful solution, but has its downsides...effort, how to know it exists, how to find...
Sticky Post would be easy to maintain and users are bumped to it by having as newest post!
Besides that, from my point of view, a wiki is simply over-engineered for most threads. A single regularly updated post is enough in most cases as proven in many threads with updated Post #1...

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

wiki + vbulletin on same page would be kind of neat :)

First message could be editable to all user like wiki page and conversation would be like it is in vbulletin.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Personally I don´t care about the technical base behind the scenes in terms of wiki, vbulletin or whatever...
But I totally agree, a easily editable first - sticky - post, that might be a way to address useless repeating posts....

However, guess we should think about limiting users who are allowed to edit (Only OP + users with a certain number of posts). Otherwise we might run into trouble with trolling ;-)

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

5,000 posts minimum.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

LoL, great idea, that leaves you and, let me guess, ahh no one else!? , who is allowed to edit?
Are you willing to do this job alone?:cool:

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

I don't think any new rules are needed, because I think things are working ok already.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Geneven, I agree, this forum works ok, more than that from my point of view. I´d never say anything else, otherwise I wouldn't be here. Probably I would have even exchanged my phone for something else without this community!

But there is always room for improvement.
Why accept the situation without trying to improve?

What we discuss here is not a new rule, its about giving the community a feature and tool to share knowledge and help each other more easily. Its about less frustration due to endless searching and reading through useless repeating posts. Useless posts resulting in as useless answers like "search before you post" and "already answered"...

If you don´t care about this problem, fair enough!
But I see frustrated users all over the forum and just try to find a solution with this idea...

If you have a better idea, feel free to share...

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Do you want that I pull out web tree of maemo.org and TMO? :rolleyes: This place is semi mess.

Not rules. But what I have seen here is same thing that is slowly happening on my girlfriends work laptop: desktop full of icons, many many many folders in all sort of places. And after couple of years when I ask her to pull out some excel sheet she will not find it. Relations of files & documents are messed and different projects are across folders. Same thing has happened and is happening here :| She is highly productive RIGHT NOW but leaves fck mess behind her.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Reflektorfalke, i know that you mean well and Your idea isn't bad at all, but I'm afraid that it can lead to even more info fragmentation. Now, one can find info on Wiki, on "[Announce]xyq" topic, and probably on few topics related to same things but called about "problems with xyq".

For me, only one rationale solution is more discipline about keeping wiki up to date, then responding to questions already covered in wiki by only linking to wiki. Maybe this seems little harsh, but i think that this will both propagate wiki at all + teach offenders to search there first. also, information will be in one place...

Forum = discussions, i.e tracking down problems and making conclusions. when we got conclusion, data goes to wiki. If ever conclusion change due to new discoveries, we can update wiki ;)

I know that now wiki is little messed up, but i can't agree that it is shitmeat. I found very valuable info there - at least half of things i learned, another half is from forum ;) I'm patient, so it was no problem for me to triple-check every aspect between wiki data / announce data / other topics data, but i must agree, it all would be faster if found just in one place (then, discussion about actual problems in forum).

Maybe it is even good idea to clear parts of the topic that were already concluded and summarized on wiki? You know, after 14-15 pages of discussion most of the times we already have one or two conclusions - this can be moved to wiki, then related posts on topic deleted. I know that this could be much work for moderators - maybe popular topics, like kernel-power and similiar, should have ''topic maintainers''? Like pali for kernel-power v47, or package maintainer when we talk about [announce]... anyway, this is just idea. Keeping wiki up to date is most important part in my opinion.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Thanks Estel for your detailed answer, but sorry mate, I am not convinced we should leave everything as it is :cool:

Heck, I am not sure if it makes sense to stress my point once again without having a feedback from mod/admin whether this is possible at all...

Oh well here we go,
I think we can agree that with wikis and Post #1´s we have all we need for efficient knowledge sharing - in THEORY!
But, I think no one can deny that in REALITY repeating posts and questions are a problem and annoying!

So, sitting back saying "we have all we need" and, even though it does NOT work, simply accept the situation without even trying to improve something is not a satisfactory answer for me...

As already mentioned the primary goal is NOT reducing redundant threads but limiting repeating posts within one thread!
For someone not finding the right thread and simply opening a new one, a sticky post would not be of help, of course...

We all know this is absolutely not realistic.
Users will never ever be that disciplined.
Besides that a wiki is simply over engineered for most threads.

Again, we simply have to deal with the fact that most users are not as disciplined and patient as you.
Further, your words cry for improvements...triple-check *sigh*

We even do net get an answer regarding this topic and you ask for more moderation? Not to speak of complains due to deleted posts...

Ok, here is an example:
A while ago I created this thread in order to sum up another messed up threat in Post #1 and maintained this post with updates, solutions etc.
When the summary got to big I moved it to a wiki which was constantly updated by me and other community members.
All tools and features we have where used to give users an easy way to find available information.
BUT, there where still tons of posts asking for information available in the wiki! Why?
Users just didn´t know there is a wiki...they didn´t know that checking Post #1 might help, or they where to lazy...

I don´t see why trying sticky posts for small summary's and/or a link to a wiki when available would do any harm...
So why not just try it???

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

So, how about something like say a button to klick, to mark a thread a technical issue (to contrast against those "...drink my beer.." or "...Nokia goes Windows..." threads). A moderator would be informed by that and can then send a final post,
- linking to either an existing or a blank wiki page,
- calling users to transition the info from the thread to wiki and continue discussion on the corresponding wiki discussion page
- blocking this thread against further posts.
As a result of this, a new topic can be discussed, maybe after about 30 posts some useful hints should be collected so far, so these can be moved to wiki. Where topics are repeated in new threads (by not searching before posting) a hint pointing at the wiki page should appear within say the first 5-10 posts. So, these threads can be closed as well, by this technique.
This will not generally reduce the number of threads, but the mass of posts with redundant information, improving the overview, which, as I understand correctly, was your intention.

One precondition to make this really usable, in this I fully agree with slender, was to merge the two user bases from garage and talk.maemo.org. This is really a bit annoying.

To those, who shy away from wiki markup: Unformatted collected information is much better than no information. Reorganization and formatting can be done by someone else who is more used to wiki (it's not too hard). Wiki is not for creating the complete, perfect documentation in one shot.

Another nice feature, I saw, but I don't exactly remember where (maybe bug-tracker of launchpad or so) is the following:
The subject is checked and compared against existing ones. So on creation of a new thread, a list of existing subjects is presented accompanied by the question, if one of these subjects covers the question. Only if this is denied, the new thread is actually created.

I'm no expert in forum software, so I don't know if this is available, in any way.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Hey, I'm also not opting for leaving things as it is ;) In general i agree with You, Reflektorfalke. I just wonder if that middle-sized mess we got is due to lacking feature (You propose new, simple feature as i understand), or just lack of discipline after wiki editing, pointing to wiki, wiki searching etc. If it is ''laziness", I'm skeptical if new feature will fix that, if what we need to fix is user behaviour - both power users (lack of updating wiki and editing, most of the times - yea, i know that some people do that hard work and they do it great, we just talk about general view), and new aka ''lame'' users. I thing that better discipline amongst "us" can lead to at least little, even very little positive change amongst ''them''. (i use terms "we" and "they" on purpose - i think it started to be even little hostile, since all that mess with Vi_'s russian roulette script in kernel-power topic)

Anyway, if mods/admins confirm that your propositions are technically possible, why not try? If it fails, we can always revert to current state... So, even skeptical, I'm with you on this ;)

Also, i agree with cowboy that even dirty formatted proper info is better for start that no info at all, or tripple checking thing.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

So currently what is blocking people editing http://wiki.maemo.org ?

Major obstacles on editing maemo.org Wiki

• Separate user base with TMO, user has to register him/herself to two different places.
• Markup language of Wiki, to even make wiki posting as "stylish" as what is possible in vbulletin advanced WYSIWYG editor you have to learn quite a lot of mediawiki markup and still looking the markup"code" makes most of people head ache and think that this is something really from dawn of word processing
• Let´s face it, Wiki is hidden, appropriate link to it would be _right_ in the main-bar not under community and then from list small link "use wiki"
• Something else?

Major obstacles on reading maemo.org Wiki

• Searching from it isn't entirely obvious, we have search field in upper right part of page and it´s quite different on different pages. IMO from all search pages the hands down best currently to me is power search (powered by google) with it´s filtering tabs for different areas. Search should be consistent on layout across whole maemo.org/TMO. It should also give option to search from different areas after search is done. e.g. wiki search does this and power search but then again layout differs and that´s not good.
• It´s hidden, look above list
• Something else?

Wiki editing incentives

• We have karma, but to most (just stuff out of my hat) _TMO_ user it doesn´t mean anything! We should have trophies on different levels for karma and different types of karma(from where the most karma points are collected) e.g. Talk Maemo Champion, Wiki Wizard. Community could point these users and council would give these trophies. And this trophy should be shown besides user-name, of course with user option to disable it.^
• As funny or lame as it sounds but little things like maemo.org/meego t-shirts. caps etc. stuff that is designed by community could be some awards on "Good job done on wiki editing" Some funny notations on back side etc.
• Something else?

Should we make brainstorm about this. Sad thing about those are that people tend to be highly excited about inventing and discussing changes and ideas first, but when it comes to execution of chosen idea things tend go halt (even saying NO or just I need help from assignee is hard) and that is just poison that makes everybody passive and currently our brainstorm system is just nice concept. IMO right from beginning of brainstorming there should be assignee who is directly responsible of things under discussion.

^Personal Rant to all those "But there is a flawwww in there" types:Please remember that there is always I mean always downside of these things but point is to make system that makes more good than bad.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Thanks Estel and Slender for your answer and detailed summary!
Just wish we would get some insight from a admin/mod whether our suggestions and brainstorming are or will be considered at all...:rolleyes:
Actually wondering if there are still mods around, haven´t seen one in quite a while :confused:

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Two thumbs up, IMO this is close to show stopper, especially for those, who don't want to register at maemo.org.

You really think so? Maybe, the wiki editor is even just half as *powerful* ;) as this *Reply to Thread* one, but the markup does not appear stranger than the one, I'm currently editing. Actually, every editor that does not support vi commands seems pretty strange, to me :D Anyway, this obstacle could possibly be removed, by wiping out this idea, that formatting in wiki was a must. Just copy and paste is absolutely acceptable, especially for wiki noobs.

Fully agree!!!

One additional obstacle might be lack of self-confidence. Even newbies sometimes have useful experiences in some special issue. Though, they may not value it adequately, to put it down in a wiki page.
All over the web, you can find wikis, maintained on varying levels of expertise. Some are maintained by the *real public*, while many are not (technically open, maybe, but in practice only edited by some gurus). Our wiki may partially appear like one of the latter, being a disincentive to normal users to add new infos.
What I'd like to say is, that some little (communicative) measures might have some effect, such as:

• Already mentioned here: Add Wiki to the main navbar
• A wiki start page explicitly motivating all users to add new pages with new infos.
• A talk start page explicitly asking the user to look for answers to their questions in wiki, and if not found there, to consider adding information collected by a new thread to a new wiki page.
• Sure some of the proposals already made in this thread (especially unify the user base)

Sounds pretty nice :D, so why not?

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

One more idea...
How about an automatic e-mail to the OP after say 20 posts or two weeks of inactivity in a thread, saying something like:

"Did information in this thread help You? If you received useful information, please consider adding it to an existing wiki page, or create a new one.

You can find the wiki under http://wiki.maemo.org/Main_Page"

Optionally extended by:

"A wiki search for this thread's subject resulted in the following list:
...
"

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

One thing I found surprising in TMO is the prevailing all-round resistance against any kind of change. For a bunch of geeks like us who loves to constantly mod our phones and anything else around us, to push it to its extreme, this behavior is really surprising.

There were requests to modify the tag behavior to prevent tag-trolling. No change.
There was request to create a new CSSU sub-forum. No change

I really can't understand why this is so. Please, I beg the moderators: Things aren't perfect the way they are now. Sure, they work, but couldn't they be a whole lot better?

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

One problem is that this site is not a democracy. Two. it steers like an aircraft carrier. If you think you can just try a quick experiment and then change or abandon it if it doesn't work, well, you have my permission. Put it into effect immediately!

I think you would be more likely to succeed if you tried to improve the Wiki or some smaller scale reform.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

So sad, but so true!
I wonder if there are still mods around!?
From a mod I would expect that in the first place the Community category of the forum is monitored closely - but no contribution from a mod so far...
I would also expect from a mod that they respond to member requests - nothing so far even though I reported this thread in order to get a feedback...

Is it not? What is it then? A dictatorship? A monarchy? Communism?:cool:
If it is not, what are the council elections for?

We will not succeed at all as long as the situation is as it is at the moment...not "no democracy" but no leadership at all...

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Something I would love to know is, What is the criteria for being selected as a moderator? Is there anything we can do to make us eligible?

Or how about an election to select a new batch of more moderators?

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

With all due respect, maemo.org is still a quite active site with a number of different types of services, numerous stakeholders with various interests and a big number of users (almost 50.000 only TMO), generating a mass especially of forum posts. This cannot work in a democratic way, or has anyone of us ever worked in a democratic company (especially of this size)?
We can make a lot of proposals, but whether they are realizable (in any technical, financial or whatever way) or not, is by far out of our mean user's scope. Most of them require a certain amount (more or less) of money and effort to realize, which most of us don't even think about spending ourselves.
Moreover, moderator is much more but just a nice title. Has one of us ever tried to stay tuned just with some threads like the http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...hlight=windows one (more than 3,5 thousand posts in 1,5 months)? It would require a team of professional full-time moderators just for one thread. I wouldn't expect too much from the moderators, while most of us wouldn't even spend some time to create a wiki page. And it is even not said, that they are the ones, responsible for technical system maintenance like this. Generally, even if practice often deviates, moderators' job is to stay somewhat "off topic" on a communicative meta level (even in topics like this).
But ejasmudar, if you feel, you have some spare time to spend on moderating TMO, feel free to use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the page. I think they may certainly appreciate some help.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

There are. However, moderators do not have access to anything that allows them to modify or configure vBulletin.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

I guess it would be rude for me to call it a Shamocracy; I think it's run fairly well, actually. But it usually pretends to be sort of democratic until you notice that huge changes are being made or resisted, and the populace clearly has no real role in what is happening.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

That's the thing i was afraid in my first post - technical changes to forum are probably out-of-discussion.

But, that doesn't mean we can't improve anything using our ideas - at least by some "standards of events" (regular wiki editing, updating first post, etc...).

Look how "3000 mAh battery mod thread works - big letters in topic title to check 1st post, then it is really updated every time something important is discovered. No need to sticky posts. It is huge thread, and of course many times we need to direct someone into first post reading ;) but that's unavoidable, no matter what technique You use. Anyway, thread works like charm and is much less bloated than, for example, Kernel-power v47 one. With all due respect, "3000 mAh battery mod" thread is still bigger than kernel-one.

Also, If You thin that Your ideas should be considered by Maemo council (and i agree with that) - use "contact us" and, with short summarize, direct council members to this thread. Fortunately, it's only 4 pages long ;)

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

The intention of this thread was not to require each and every thread being closely moderated, of course.
The proposed idea was an attempt to make TMO more pleasurable for everyone. Now, TMO has proven to be not very change friendly obviously even though users suggested improvements frequently.
My expectation of moderators would be that they listen to users and try to support them in finding ways to improve.
Of course there might be good reasons why a certain idea can´t be or won´t be realized. But this reason should be communicated to the users unless you want to create even more frustration...

Thanks a lot for your reply sjgadsby.
Does that mean nothing will change and we have to accept the situation as is or is there actually "someone" with access to vBulletin modification?
Might it be possible that you moderate between us, the users, and those admins or is something like discussed here or totally unwanted?

I think what you describe here is a parliamentary democracy ;)

So, assuming any kind of change is indeed out of question "sigh" we can only hope that users will use available tools as good as possible.
Meaning that OP should either add a Post #1 hint in thread title and take the effort of updating this post.
Or OP should add a hint to a wiki in thread title while the wiki is maintained with community support - hopefully.

Ugly workarounds from my point of view, but all we can get with available features...:(

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Sure, the kind of parliamentary democracy they have in Russia, where the Duma makes lots of noise but the actual power is held by mysterious powers mostly invisible, though our version of Putin occasionally becomes visible. This is parliament while the King still has full power.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Yes, the admin, Reggie.

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

Well well, don´t you think your comparison is a bit too harsh and besides that your post not very helpful?
And, who do you think is, from your point of view, this mysterious almighty "king"?

Re: [Suggestion] Sticky Posts to avoid thread spamming!?
 

In fact it's not harsh enough; as you may recall, the Parliament was able to control the King by refusing to fund him, whereas we have no similar power.

Much of what goes on here is invisible to me, but I think the elusive King is Reggie, and the funding is provided by Nokia.