Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

"...Windows Phone had only modest sales that reached 1.6 million units in the first quarter of 2011, as devices launched at the end of last year failed to catch much consumer interest and operators continued to focus on Android, according to Gartner.

Nokia hasn't yet said when its Windows smartphone will arrive. The company won't divulge ship dates until closer to when the first models arrive, but the pressure is on to deliver the devices this year, Nokia CEO Stephen Elop said when the company announced its first quarter results.

In the long term, Nokia's backing will accelerate Windows Phone's momentum, Gartner wrote. Nokia needs to make consumers forget that they are buying a Windows phone, because the current perception is that Microsoft is something dad uses at work, according to Carolina Milanesi, research vice president at Gartner.
..."
http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic...globally_in_Q1

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I'm not sure I entirely agree with some of their assessments and perceptions, but you can't argue the numbers and outcomes.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I don't really get the purpose of the focus on WP7 sales - it's been out a matter of months and is still in its first incarnation, excluding the copy/paste update because that didn't do much of anything. If you look at the numbers for Android's first quarter no one would have suggested it'd be this big, nor would Symbian's numbers 2 years ago suggest they'd be this low now. We need to give things time to take ahold in the market, notwithstanding the fact that most people are on contracts, and given most contracts are 18-24 months, an accurate picture of consumer interest won't be derived 6 months after release. And quite frankly, i would expect Q2 and Q3 sales to be pretty bad, because i imagine most WP7 fans will want the Nokia ones for the superior hardware and the distinct possibility they'll be getting extra features that HTC and Samsung won't. Put another way: if i had the choice of HTC, Samsung, Dell and Nokia all running the exact same software, i'd choose Nokia every time.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

First off, because it's not a first incarnation. Windows Mobile has been around since April 19, 2000; 11 years ago (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile) and has been crippled inexplicably along the way--a lot this last time around--and hasn't made a lot of fans along the way. Windows Phone 7 is only the latest in a series of the same line and it's doing terribly compared to its competition who had FAR less time to make a mobile OS and grow them.

Nokia, similarly, has been churning out phones for a long time now.. and their latest incarnations are failing to live up to expectations and sales compared to relative newcomers.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Doesn't mean jack. Unlike comparing S^3 to S^1, WP7 and WinMo are entirely different beasts. In fact, it's much more like comparing Maemo 5 and Symbian. The only similarity with WP7 and WinMo is MS being the creator; WP7 is a whole new OS, built from the ground up, with a vastly different interface and way of navigation. I used WinMo, it was so bad i used it only for a week and WP7 has already been a month. WinMo tried to be Windows on a phone, WP7 is a phone OS made by MS. So yes, it is the first incarnation of this OS.

Nokia, you're right, but what does that have to do with anything? And a large part of that is the rise of American software with iOS and Android, a part of the world where Nokia never had much presence. With iOS and Android came the American bloggers raving about it, and slamming Symbian was par the course because it was simply never big there. Nokia didn't help themselves with a total lack of advertising and telling consumers what the devices did and still do that others don't. But my fiancee certainly isn't the first person to leave the iPhone for an N8 and see what she's been missing feature-wise.Although my first question remains, what does Nokia's underachievement in sales have to do with WP7 not steaming out the gates within its first 6 months? These things all take time.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

It's an interesting sign of just how out-of-touch Microsoft is that it thinks adding "Windows" to the name of a new OS makes it more attractive to consumers.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Clearly, we don't agree on how to interpret this information and the validity of these comparisons. I'm simply taking the interpretation that many in the industry are interpreting from the longstanding history of these lines of products. Trying to re-re-interpret the data doesn't seem to make a difference in this case. Windows Phone 7 is a failing platform by any standard--even comparing it to Android's earliest forays with the G1 and Apple's first forays into the 1st gen iPhone and even RIM's first blackberries.

Granted, as you admit yourself, Nokia never could understand how to penetrate the American market. The problem for Nokia now is that the American market is easily making in-roads to the markets that Nokia used to understand. It would seem that Nokia's niche markets are becoming far less loyal to Nokia than they expected and the less-than-enthuastic roll-outs are making it that much easier for others to come in and win the loyalty over to their brands.

Arguing that your fiancee dumped an iPhone for an N8, by the way... classy debate kills, lad! Classy! Ever heard of "anecdotal evidence?" I'm sure she's no the only, nor the last, to do that but based on these numbers she's far and away in a statistic minority.

Putting these two together isn't really a winning combination.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Well, no. The "W" at the beginning of both of the OS names stands for Windows.

Those of us who breathe this stuff in and out just like air know they are really different beasts. The vast majority of people see Microsoft, Windows and one version of the OS is simply a revision of the previous version.

The time it's going to take is the time it will take to change that perception - a whole different task to growing the market for a new, fresh off the presses, OS.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I don't think windows mobile 6 and 7 share a single line of code.
And certainly not the spirit. That's for good or bad, but Windows phone 7 really is a new OS.
Though I agree that microsoft reputation is not as new and white.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

On the fiancee point, i was referring directly to Nokia's lack of advertising - she's American, where anything not Android or iPhone is not a smartphone, Nokia are considered dumb phones that do nothing. All of a sudden she's got a phone with widgets, social integration, FM transmitter, bluetooth transfers, HDMI, USB OTG and so on. I've been visiting here for 6 months and literally have met no one who knows Nokia do this, or have heard of an FM transmitter. Now, can you imagine Apple having features no other device has and not telling people? No.

Sure, WP7 isn't doing well, i'm not arguing that. What i am arguing is that it's far too early to say that low sales now mean it won't succeed. It's the new kid on the block, many people are tied into contracts, many are waiting for updates and so on. When Android first came out people didn't have such high expectations of a phone. When BB came out it was popular for its impressive emails. To enter the smartphone arena now when people already have good emails and other great software features is never going to be an instant hit like it was 5 years ago.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I think Dan and richwhite both make good points. WP7 is not doing terribly well in the market, and it is a new OS in terms of market positioning and (possibly) codebase, so it's a bit early to ring the death knell.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Agreed, but on the flip side, i know one single person who owns a WinMo (HTC HD2), no one else i know has even heard of it. So for the general unwashed masses i don't think many people have a bad taste in their mouth regarding MS in the mobile world

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

yes and the funny thing is there isn't a single window on that UX
The question "are you still using windows?" is starting to float around more and more. They've got to get it, the windows brand has aged...

On the other hand several bugs and "features" like the delayed answer indicate at least some shared code with WinMo, so it's not completely new.
________
White widow seeds

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Back to anecdotal evidence? :) On the other hand, considering all the people I know who've owned smartphones over the years, I know MANY, MANY people, who don't currently own a Windows Mobile phone but used to--and will never go back to one because of the bad taste it left in their mouth on various levels (the OS was awful, the devices were far too expensive compared to competitors, the number of apps were ALWAYS far fewer than most other platforms... even in the days when Windows was performing better, it was never a particularly good experience to own a Windows Mobile phone and watch other people over the years being happier and doing more with their Treos or iPhones and so on).

I think that, despite the fact that Windows Phone 7 is based on all-new code, it's still having to contend with its Windows Mobile legacy that extends far out beyond just the code base.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

oh yeah, I went to the states last summer and I remember all the faces my relatives had when I hijacked their car radio with the N900, it was hilarious
________
Evia

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

basically with that name they carry along all the bad feelings they created with 6 awful versions of WinMo and none of the good ones.
Even if one had good feelings about winmo he will be disappointed to see his apps not working anymore. 6.5 to 7 doesnt feel very much of a change to the average user...
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COLORADO MARIJUANA DISPENSARY

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Yes, that's true, but in all honesty how many of the teenage Android and iPhone users do you think used WinMo 5 or 6? My money is on very few. But we're in different countries, i've never even seen a WinMo device in shops, it might well be different in America. For older phone users i'm sure the story is different, for those 15-25 i don't see previous WinMo experience being an issue. Nor for apps or it being 'old', because the UI is fresh, the navigation is fresh, and a lot of marketing is going into it being a young device - XBox integration, facebook integration and so on, with the Office and Skydrive integration for the business users too. I used WinMo 5, it didn't put me off WP7 because i'm not ******ed enough to think it's the same OS. I also tried a demo out in store and liked the fluidity. I don't know how you choose phones or try phones, but i do know that phone technology in the UK is so different than the USA, and in a far more positive way too. More of the individuals actually know about the OSs the phones run, there's more choice on the market, a broader display of phones are seen everyday, buying SIM free is much easier and cheaper to run than in the States.

I think you're deluding yourself if you think WP7 is starting slow because WinMo sucked. I think it has far, far more to do with it a) being released with limited features when we're used to more b) people being tied into contracts c) people waiting for it to get an update and more apps d) now people waiting for Nokia WP7. But mostly i think it's a) and b), and very, very little to do with MS's past endeavours.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Considering most new cars have A2DP bluetooth, this is less and less of a compelling feature--especially if it can't carry with it the ID3 tag info that some radios even support over A2DP. More importantly, it's so cheap to get a tiny FM transmitter that it's hardly a selling point. I picked one up a few years ago to use with my Palm Tungsten TX for listening to podcasts on the car radio.. it was under $10 and works with ANYTHING with a headphone jack.. even if I bought a new device. I began using it with my N800, until I started using bluetooth to listen to podcasts and then got a receiver for my car to also do bluetooth and I've avoided using FM ever since. FAR better quality and control with bluetooth in the car. Since the bluetooth adapter in the car is portable, I take it with my no matter the car, too--even works in my old '74 VW Beetle (AM-only radio... so FM transmitter wouldn't work there).

Just saying, at least in the US, FM transmitter is becoming the lower-quality alternative to bluetooth which is quickly becoming more ubiquitous in cars, headphones, speakers and other devices.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I think your timeline for Windows Mobile is strange. Windows Mobile was still trying to compete with the likes of Palm's Treo up until very recently. Let's not forget that the iPhone only just came out June 29, 2007. That's four years. It hasn't been so many years that even teens might not remember those god-awful HP phones with Windows Mobile that looked so chunky and worked so terribly--and those were supposed to be the hottest Windows Mobile phones.

I don't think I'm deluding myself. I believe Microsoft and Nokia, both really, have degraded their brand.

PS: Garyc2011... I suggest you seek immediate medical attention for whatever that is that you've got. Please, we're concerned for you.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Oh yeah, I almost never use it, I've got BT too but it's nice to make pranks with it. It's funny and it harms nobody.

However, it's nice to be able to listen to your music virtually everywhere (eg on friends' cars, rent a car, grandparents home etc) and it's easier than bt (pairing and such).
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VOLCANO VAPORIZER

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I've been a mobile consmer for 10-12 years, never seen WinMo in shops. In fact most of this whole thing hinges on MS's lack of prominence in the mobile market, so point proven i think.

anyway, this isn't a thread on the virtues and downfalls of MS, Nokia or WinMo. My entire was, and remains, that WP7 hasn't been out long enough to be making any predictions about its longevity. That is all i have to say on that subject and don't want to take the thread elsewhere.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Whos Gartner?

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I've been a mobile consumer for about the same length of time as you, plus I worked in the industry far longer (I began poking around at mobile cellular devices as a job since around 1993 with the old Motorola StarTAC flip-phones and the old bag-phone carphones and such). I can tell you that I have seen Windows Mobile in shops (Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile... even stores like Walmart, Target, etc.). I'm not sure that I can buy into your premise that whole thing hinges on a lack of prominence in the mobile market--I would argue that Microsoft has ruined their brand and image over the years. The idea of buying a Windows Phone 7 device conjures the image of one of those clunky old Windows Mobile phones from Hewlett Packard tat were pushed so hard up until maybe a couple of years ago, or else conjures the image of Microsoft's Windows desktops and the bad reputation they have for bloat, slowness and myriads of problems onto a phone device.

I still think that you're just not looking at the bigger picture and myopically focused on the idea that Windows Phone 7 is supposed to be new code. I don't think the broader market of consumers will care about that detail. Ultimately, what you or I think matters very little--let's just look at the numbers and we'll see how things transpire over time. I suspect Microsoft may have slipped enough times to have lost this market, though. They've always been struggling with it anyway, so this shouldn't be anything new.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Ah, "Research" groups.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

This might be a circumstance of location. Like richwhite, Im also from the UK and, as he says, you would see very few if any Windows Mobile handsets in the stores here.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Im in Australia, ive only seen Windows phones once in a store. I dont really look at phones in general, but all the others are noticable.

That goes for the Zune too, ive only seen it sold once.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

It wasn't me who mentioned code, that wasn't my argument. You see them in stores in the USA, not in the UK. I've never heard someone talk about it, see it, or own it - and my friends own everything from primitive Ericsson's to old Nokias to new Nokias to BlackBerry, Android's and iPhones and old Motorolas and Samsungs. WinMo is the only OS i think i've never seen around. What i'm saying about WP7 is that it is presented entirely different, not as a tent peg on a business infrastructure for business users, but specifically a smartphone OS with integrated features and a whole new, fresh way of doing things that frankly is a joy to use (the swipe to new pages and so forth). Perhaps WinMo will hinder MS in the USA, but not elsewhere. Seriously, if i suggested to anyone i know or talk to 'what's your impression of WinMo?' not a single one would mention clunky HP phones. The only one i ever saw was a HTC one that i bought on eBay just to try a HTC device.

But yes, let's see how it transpires. I'm very curious about how it'll pan out.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

This seemed relevant to the thread today... a posting that was made today on Facebook by the DroidFans group:

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

One of the leading market research and analytics companies in the world. They were one of the few that accurately predicted the complete and utter failure of the Iphone.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I'm from the UK, I remember windows mobile in shops everywhere. If you were after a smartphone back then you would have come across it everywhere you went. It's just that smartphones are becoming more mainstream, it's not that you couldn't find WM in UK stores. There were plenty, and I remember the sony ericsson ones they had. In fact if you didn't buy a Nokia smartphone you were more than likely buying a Windows Mobile smartphone. Windows mobile was fairly popular once but in a very bad decline, which prompted MS to rebrand it as Windows Phone and drop photon. Make no mistake, wndows mobile DID leave a bad taste in some peoples mouths. The reason you don't see it in stores NOW is because it's not being released on new phones anymore but there were as many WM phones in stores as there is WP7 now. BTW, Symbian 3 was also redesigned from the ground up and reason b) makes no difference to the low sales of WP7.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

yea. i worked for them (among others) on some market research contracts when i was in india. Usually, when we cant fulfill the requirements of the contract, we just make things up. fake surveys, fake numbers, fake CEOs. the value of these surveys is not on what its based as it usually is more than 50% fake (up to 80%), its more on how people will react to the results.

So these numbers here dont prove or disprove anything except the past. future is a different thing and it will be interesting to see how it goes. especially since this nokia+ms= <3 thing

Also, concerning WM vs WP. The way i see it is, people that were buying smartphones 5 years ago know what is WM, but they are early adopters of new tech, so they must also be well aware and informed that WP is completely different.

also i dont think wm was that bad. i actually find it more useful than wp7 as of now and i had to chose between wm and ios at the time and i took the att tilt and never regreted it. with the proper multitasking, copy/paste, ms exchange, office, etc. it was the best option for me.

to danramos


also, i dont know you and i might be wrong (and im sorry if i am, but its hard to get the tone used when reading...), but you seem like an arrogant prick to me by the way you respond to others and it seems the only thing you can do is disagree. so now im gonna disagree with you:

you blame others to use annecdotal evidence but you did it yourself

its not a os update, its a new os so dont say it comes from year 1920 or something. its brand new, no matter how you put it, you were wrong, just admit it.

you make assumptions based on nothing ("many in the industry are interpreting from the longstanding history of these lines of products" really? who?) when i look at a review online, they tell me what the product is, not what the company did 5 years ago

you say fm radio transmitter is useless (when its ****ing awesome) and you think most people have a new car with bluetooth when the avereage car age in the USA is 10 years old and still have cassette player.

you say its just been 4 years since iphone so teens should remember the wm experience when in reality, nobody gived a damn about smartphones back then except businesses. like kojacker, azkay and richwhite proved, even if there actually WERE wm phones in almost every store selling phones, most dont remember that because NOBODY CARED ABOUT SMARTPHONES 5 YEARS AGO.

you say "I still think that you're just not looking at the bigger picture and myopically focused on the idea that Windows Phone 7 is supposed to be new code. I don't think the broader market of consumers will care about that detail"
when in fact, the detail is the ****in W in wp7 that no mass consumer will give a damn about because they never heard of wm before anyway and are not dumb enough to think its the same thing anyway and will TRY the phone, in their hand, in the store, and see how it works because mass consumers buy phones in retail outlets.
You really think a 15years old kid will care about wp7 vs wm??? Really? whos not looking at the big picture here?

you post a stupid quote wich is in no way relevant to the subject and posted by someone who is clearly biased. By the way, this ******ed argument was used by apple fanboys few years ago when android just arrived on the market. guess whos laughing now?

finally, id like to say that I DONT KNOW what will happen to WP7 and Nokia and i dont pretend to know. I dont think they are doomed, but maybe they are. Time will tell...and time is not 1 quarter, id say 1-2years, like the time it took for android to really get momentum.

...sorry for the rant...and once again, sorry if i got you wrong, but thats how i felt it reading your posts.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I actually agree with alot with what you say analysis wise - but I said nothing as arguing about opinionative stuff like this that has no metric is that the argument will never end, so why bother ?

hehe either way we will find out soon enough.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

So you admit to telling 50-80% lies? What makes you think I should or can believe you now? :)

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

50 to 80% lies in the surveys we did yes. its not like i had a choice, i was an employee. how often do you tell your boss : hey boss, i dont care if you lose this 25k $ project, i wont do what you tell me to do.

i went there for a management internship and i was lured to this stupid job. i had no money as i am a full time student and i was paid 300$ a month there working 50h/week, barely enough to survive. so my little fancy morals got out of the way and i decided to shut the hell up and do what i was told to do.

but you clearly have superior morals and are a better person than me.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Apparently, 100% of statisticians claiming that 50-80% of statistics are lies miss the point when their own claim is dismissed as a likely lie just on statistical proof alone!

I can't stop giggling at your response.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

you really are an arrogant prick.
and i didnt miss the point. i dont lie 50-80% of the time.
with a gun on your head, you would still tell the truth if asked to lie? whatever your answer would be to that question, i could call you a liar.

so just stop your childish ********, you're spending too much time fapping on forums

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

I have never felt the need to register at maemo.org despite having the N900 for a over a year now simply because the answers to all the question one may have have already been posted.
The reason I joined the forum today is to agree with others on this thread and say that danramos is indeed an arrogant prick.

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

Somebody was frustrated enough to create himself a second account. Welcome "new guy". ;)

Re: Gartner: Android wins, MS fails, Nokia fails
 

PS: Garyc2011... I suggest you seek immediate medical attention for whatever that is that you've got. Please, we're concerned for you.

I must have touched a raw nerve........

What I have is a 6th sense and an uncanny gift for spotting dumb yankers like yourself

Please don't be so arrogant when replying to posters on here, I know most yanks are under-educated and loud mouthed, so please don't be so stereotypical.

Back to the point, how is maemo doing this weather, is all well in maemo land or has maemo become the sick man of the mobile world ?