Organizational Structure (was TSG) for CSSU?
 

I propose that we have a TSG (Technical Steering Group) for CSSU - 3 community members meritocratically selected from within the project who will oversee initial decision making over such things as project management, release dates, features, architecture and roadmap. To the extent it means anything, Council can delegate some of its authority so that the TSG can hopefully address related administrative tasks directly and more quickly without Council intervening on its behalf. I propose that the TSG membership is reviewed with the same frequency as Council - every 6 months.

The main reasoning being that a TSG will make the project clearer to the rest of the community. I have sometimes seen the project get delayed because MohammedAG is temporarily unavailable, and that there is uncertainty or lack of input over how some decisions get made, etc. I'd also like people to see more clearly how to address the project with their ideas and contributions.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

CSSU definitely lacks proper project management, so it will benefit a lot from such group.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

If this is implemented community will be benefited....great.....

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

I'd like to see jaffa's questions on this in the community mailing list answered.

http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...ry/005007.html

and no cssu doesn't need management. It needs people to do the work.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Well Jaffa pointed out some things but apprently as stated by one of the core developers in this thread something like this would help CSSU. SD69 made a proposal which is supposed to be discussted so we can come up with a solution wich will sattisfy most people.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

sounds like a good idea. many distros have this kind of setup so why should maemo be any different. would like to see a proposal fleshed out a bit though. eg. what happens in stalemate with regards to a proposal?

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

He did but the ones who can make these decisions are the developers themselves. If they don't want this to happen the community's opinion doesn't matter. It isn't stated in the proposal if they want this or were if they were consulted about this. That's why this proposal sounds very weird and it justifies the questions if this is a hostile takeover or a fork.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

I understnad your opinion and also understand his idea. I dont think that this is a take over. For me this looks like trying to make something like in MER/Nemo. Freemangordon is the only core dev who made a statment here. The devs talk on IRC. How to connect these two worlds?

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

The proposal was made because it seemed from a number of things that the CSSU project could benefit from some organization and getting more people involved. I'm gratified that in 2 days the OP got 29 thanks and one of the core devs has supported it. I sent a message to Mohammed AG a long time ago about a TSG, but he didn't respond one way or the other.

What would a TSG do? We know that and I proposed a few examples. Jaffa questioned candidate eligibility, but ironically named two obvious candidates at the same time. Making a sensible and consistent set of architectural decisions? Well, that's sort of the point of the proposal.

Consider what I said rather than the implications that are contrary to what I said-
"community members meritocratically selected from within the project . . . Council can delegate some of its authority so that the TSG can hopefully address related administrative tasks directly and more quickly without Council intervening on its behalf. . . I'd also like people to see more clearly how to address the project with their ideas and contributions."

I think the proposal is empowering to the CSSU devs and is promoting the project. Ask Pali about what happened in kp and if he would like to have had some of Council's authority to directly tell Nemein what to do. I hope this proposal, if adopted, would solve that kind of problem for CSSU.

There's no hostile takeover or fork or conspiracy here. This proposal will not proceed if there is a stalemate, but that doesn't mean it should stop if one or two people attempt to veto it in some way. The discussion should continue with everyone involved with the CSSU project free to participate. It is my hope we emerge with some TSG members selected based on meritocracy. So far I see two nominees - MohammadAG and merlin1991.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

The only user modding I can do is one-touch ban and clean... and given fahadj2003's typical behavior, it's tempting.

He'd better hope a super mod acts before I do.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

done 1 2 3

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Seems like a good idea: some clear goal setting and definition by a mixture of CSSU developers, as well as devoplers (?) from other maemo projects. Apart from anything else, advertising feature-freezes for a given release would be worthwhile. Then there's the fun task of raking through bugs and suggestions - all needs doing but if not managed outside the development itself, my small coding experience is, the drive to make something new can compound hidden errors and digress the main flow of the project.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

True. I do wish we get more discussion of CSSU. My impression is that new features are pushed out by a small group of CSSU devs at their discretion and the challenge is communicating those features. The "management" has to have a light touch, I think organization or coordination are better descriptions.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

I don't consider mentioning MAG & merlin1991 as "ironic". They're part of the "core devs" making decisions and doing work.

Is it an election or a selection? If the former, who can vote? If the latter, who decides? What if someone is (s)elected who can only point and say "do this"? The CSSU developers (and contributors in other ways) are volunteers.

Buzzword overload. What's "kp"?

MAG has already been granted power by (previous) Council's as the leader of the CSSU.

It would be helpful if you could be clearer about the problems you are you trying to solve; before focusing on a solution. I'm not suggesting it is any of these:

• Is it things not being done for the CSSU by Nemein?
• Is it architectural decisions on the CSSU not being made (can you point to threads where someone arguing for something did so lucidly and got no resposne/was shot down)?
• Is it project management around promoting things to stable from testing?

The solutions for each of these may be different, or they may be an all encompassing TSG.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Right, so that's a question of volunteering to help with comms; or volunteering to help with any non-coding task to ease processes. Standing on the sidelines and saying "a TSG is the answer" looks to be deploying a sledgehammer.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

It's a nomination process and self-organization by the project. I doubt if votes will be necessary. At least I will defer to the judgment of those most involved and I think others will too if they see a TSG or other action taken.


kernel power

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71879

A discussion of what needs to be addressed is good. But I don't think we should get into some of the details out of concern that what should be a structural and organizational process will instead become personal.

It's not specific problems (although 1 and 3 on your list are problems AFAICT). Can we talk in general terms that, although CSSU started organically, it has grown to the point that we need to think about organizing, coordinating and supporting it a little better? Can we say we could make CSSU more open and transparent without anyone taking offense? Now that official support for N900/fremantle has ended, CSSU is the only path forward for thousands of N900 users.

My suggestion is a common aspect of software projects, a TSG. I think its main task should be coordinating and communicating technical decisions regarding the project. But other proposals could work as well if anyone has any. I also think that we will see more devs and other people support the project when they see more organization. The point is well taken that a solution can't be imposed, but I think there is a desire for a something to be done.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

I don't think CSSU needs a formal TSG right now, as that TSG tends to consist of >50% of the active developers of CSSU.
I'm not an active developer in terms of code or maintenance contribution, but nobody will doubt I'm an active contributing member of #maemo-ssu, and if anything, I always defined my own role in this project as sth *very* close to a TSG though without any real powers aside from being an old ranting fart that can really annoy and be stubborn. ;-)

I think some of the developers appreciate and value this role I try to fulfill, and if council wants to assign some powers regarding talks to Nemein etc to me, I'd probably accept that additional burden. I don't however accept any role that would put me in a position where by definition my word counts more than that of any other developer, on any discussion inside CSSU. In simple words: I'm not anybodies boss, for the good or the bad. If anything, consider me (or any TSG, for that topic) a consultant and referee.

BTW I generally wonder if it's wise to have any active (in that project) developers in any TSG, as those usually are biased at least when it comes to their own project - this is a comment not targeted at the particular situation but rather meant to point at a general consideration.

Anyway Mohammad wasn't really the driving power of CSSU during the last 2 or 3 month (no criticism!) and also been the one with most 'powers' in CSSU so far, so what's it worth to nominate him for some TSG? Would that change anything?

For sure one thing is fundamentally true: right now there's no defined process in or around CSSU that says what goes into CSSU and what will not. We got a 'manifest' stub which I frequently quote, but no process defined. We managed to handle this 'by acclamation' so far, mainly happening in #maemo-ssu, and usually involving one or 2, max 3 active devels of CSSU (do we have more than 3 anyway? ;-D) plus my rants and comments that are often requested for by those devels. This may or may not work for the future, but anyway it won't hurt if the devels and the founders of CSSU (yes there are those as well) would agree on some common sense regarding this, and write it down somewhere in 2 sentences so everybody can read it when (s)he feels like.

Now sorry if the above is not giving a clear notion and point of view, it was meant to dump some possibly disconnected random thoughts here.

cheers
jOERG

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

It is a benefit for you to be involved, whether we have a TSG at some point or not. And of course any person has to be a volunteer and not an unwilling nominee. I do hope that people understand this discussion is intended to improve CSSU and figuring out how to help it, not as a criticism of it or any person in it.

I do think we should have a defined process for deciding what goes into CSSU and what does not, without anybody being anybody's boss. Maybe this is something as simple as having meetings on IRC at regular times. But it could also be bug triage, etc. And no matter what form it takes I think you could help with it.

I think your comments are good even without a point of view - idle thoughts are often constructive.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

One thing that prompted me to raise CSSU but I forgot to mention.

In the last council meeting, merlin1991 proposed a co-maintainership for the cssu-repo but we were unable to reach that item due to time constraints. I don't think we are going to be able to discuss that with Nokia anytime soon. Is there any discussion or objection by the community to this proposal?

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

What exactly does co-maintainership means? And what does nokia have to do with the CSSU repo apart from paying the bills?

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Currently the upload the repo is tied to 1 garage user which in effect means only MohammadAG can upload to testing and only I can upload to stable. Co-maintinership would mean that we have at least 2 credentials to upload to the repo.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Do you happen to know if MohammadAG or anybody else objects to a second person with admin rights?

Are you willing to be the second maintainer for the time being?

What is your opinion of having the maintainers meritocratically selected by people involved with CSSU every 6 months or so?

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Why don't you share only one credential for uploading to both testing and stable between all CSSU developers (MAG, Merlin1991, Pali, Freemangordon, Nicolai, etc)? That would be better than only having two maintainers (eventually we would reach the same point in which we are stacked today).

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

I have been told it is not feasible to share a single admin account with the current infrastructure. I would not want to have 5 different admins because we could start to have problems with version control, etc. At least I'd rather have two maintainers first and then increase the number of maintainers if two proves to be insufficient. One maintainer obviously has the "hit by a bus" disadvantage, which is not good for a large project like CSSU.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

I'm nothing to do with Nokia or CSSU, but as a sysadmin I can say that in general it is better for each person to use an individual account (with multiple accounts given access to whatever they need), rather than sharing an account. Credentials for a shared account can leak out, and also there is a lack of accountability - e.g. who specifically uploaded what or made what change.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

For sure, I agree with you in normal cases. But I tried to propose alternatives to the very special conditions with which we are dealing.

My concern is that it would be easy that only with two people we will face the same problem quite soon.

Anyway, it's better to start at least with this small step of having to maintainers for CSSU.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

MohammadAG does not object at all to a second person (me) with admin rights.
Actually the only reason why this is not in place yet, is that X-Fade when we tried to get it in place said, that the system needs some configuration for that and it's not done easily, after that he never came back to us.

I don't think we will benefit from selecting the maintainers in a regular interval, it makes more sense to have a (the current) main maintainer and a backup + replace maintainers on a when needed basis.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

I'm a little confused by the logic of not having a single shared account. Can't merlin et al push changes in their own accounts and then use the admin account strictly for kicking off builds and submits? Would that not solve the issue of ownership?

Also, per Pali and others that have taken over existing projects, it would appear that when one re-assigns a project's ownership that both the new and old owner(s) have full rights still. Is that not the case for CSSU? If not, why not assign ownership to the top 3 or 4 active people in the group now in succession, giving them all access?

Just thoughts... Personally, if the CSSU team is good with one solution or the other, they should choose which way they want to go, as they're the ones impacted. I just wanted to raise the questions to make sure we're not overlooking the obvious.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

The post below got me thinking about CSSU again:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=167

I think merlin1991's response is good but he shouldn't have to do it. One of the problems I think we have is there often someone or something pulling in a tangential direction or criticizing in a visible place, and then time is taken away from productive work to address it. I feel that the community can do better to support CSSU by organizing (and filtering if needed) the community input so that the more worthy issues get raised with the project and less worthy ones do not need a response. A little bit of organization can help.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Sorry, I've changed my number-of-posts-per-page, so I'm not sure which post you're linking to. EDIT: do you mean http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=166 ?

I'm sure the CSSU team would appreciate anyone willing to volunteer with comms.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Yeah, definitely, a PR guy will be of use. Especially when things like ke-recv fiasco seem unavoidable having in mind the current situation with CSSU-testing maintainer.

On the other hand, having in mind lack of doers and CSSU importance on the other hand, part of the PR could be done by council. Just a random thoughts.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Sure, as a council member I promote CSSU to parties outside maemo.org. I wouldn't call it PR because the general public hasn't much interest. But external collaboration with outside groups interested in FOSS on mobile devices, sure.

I've corrected the link in my post. To be more specific, the point I was trying to make is that someone called CSSU stable a joke. I empathize that merlin1991 felt compelled to respond to such a callous comment. I would like to organize internally and give better feedback to CSSU.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

But you are doing it because you feel like that, not because you have to. My point was that such promotion could be made a part of the council's duties. And it is not only the promotion, the communication with the community (whatever it means) re CSSU, could be partially assigned to council. Joining #maemo-ssu when there is a CSSU devs meeting or on regular basis(not all of the council members of course), could be made another duty to council, so the council to stay in touch with the project. Again, a random thoughts.

Yeah, the post calling CSSU stable a joke was an good example of what people who don't know/does not care could withdraw from the thin air.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

I wouldn't force the council to be a promotor of a specific project in maemo.org. Sure some project's worked on here are more visible than others and attract more attention, false conclusions and so on but adding an exception to include some named project to be catered doesn't solve anything. The council's tasks already include "Facilitation: making sure that one portion of the community knows what is going on in another " [0]. To me this already covers CSSU and no extra duties are needed. As for a techincal streering group (TSG) I think that's up for the project itself to setup if needed not for the larger community. To me CSSU is a project within the community not a project by the community.

Just my 0.02

[0] http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council#Council_work

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Thanks for your comments. They help distill the issue. I agree that in general council shouldn't distinguish between projects. But the rub of it is this:

what if, hypothetically speaking, there was a platform-related project that was vital to the continued existence of the community? Should council help that project succeed so that the community does not die or should it treat that project the same way as it would a fart app?

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Yeah. I get that but wouldn't still add any named projects to the tasks list since those tend to get the attention anyway. Don't get me wrong. I very much appriciate what the CSSU folk are doing and it is something that one can safely call an important project for the community but on the other hand IMO all the individual application developers, hackers, testers, users, etc. are pretty much equally important factors in making this a vital community. The diversity is one of the things I like about maemo.org - You can find platform hackers, application developers, users, etc. in one place.

Re: TSG for CSSU?
 

Of course, but the council should be helping any project which needs it - but that "help" should never really extend beyond facilitation. Bigger projects need more, and ongoing, help to get more contributors.

What "facilitation" means is up to the council members and the projects involved. I do not think it would work, hypothetically, to have the council "run" the CSSU project on a day-to-day basis; it needs a continual vision, not someone who changes every six months. But the council can help with the discussions around how project management should work, and push for people to step up and suggest ways which could be taken on.