Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

An interesting article on the Register:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/02/nokia_new_coke/

which not only divulges the dark origines of the Hildon interface, but gives Nokia a good (and IMHO well-deserved) thrashing on its E90 craptastic non-communicator.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Interesting (and depressing for me) story. The writing style was torturous but he got his point across.

I hope the re-org helps this sort of situation...

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Not a huge fan of the Register but I can corroborate with anecdotal evidence of my dad who used the communicator series since the debut years ago. He wanted to upgrade from an 9300 to E90 but hated the new UI so much that he didn't bother. He ended up getting a S40 phone instead (not sure which one).

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Hey Karel,

Great article. I am still getting an E90 for very simple reasons. The same software that I run on my N95, I can run on the E90. This is one thing the article did not mention or I missed it. Many people, many, many people did not like the fact that they had to purchase two different licenses for the same piece of software. If I want to run x on my N95, I can, while I can run the same software on the E90. Also, there is a plethora of biz software out there (some of it not free) that users can install that is often better than what Nokia has bundled. I pitched the E90 to the State Department and they are seriously taking a look. It fits more than most needs and has a nice feature set. Yes it is more expensive than the N95 but they are two different types of phones. For me, I could not care less as I either get the devices for free from work, or I buy them myself. I make enough money. I will agree though that the E90 is sort of a buzz device but then again so what. What is wrong with having a device that generates interest. Marketing is all about this. Personally, I am glad to see a standardization on the Series 60 platform, and there is nothing wrong with Nokia trying to save money.

Anyway, are you still in Belgium or did you finally bail?

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

I just can't bring myself to believe this part :

"Psion developed the user interface, codenamed Hildon after the bottled water, on which Nokia would base a range of Symbian products.
(...)
Today, the user interface lives on almost unchanged, in Nokia's promising Linux-based Tablet, and the (now) open source user interface API still bears the Hildon name."

A Gnome-based GUI descended from Psion by way of Symbian ? Bottled water ?

If this isn't a hoax, it's definitely the funniest (and most ironic) thing I've read this year...

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Good Lord, it's not like some enterprising 3rd party won't come along with a application for sending/receiving faxes on the E90.
First one to do so will easily cash in...unless Nokia pulls a fast one and codes one themselves and releases it for free, ala their podcasting and internet radio applications.
And yet another will probably come along with a different "launcher" application that will turn the current E90 interface into something more resembling the look-n-feel-n-usability of the older Communicator lines.
And guess what? Those same apps will probably run on an N95, N73, etc. and is actually GOOD for developers since they now only have to compile it once for one environment and they can now "tap in" to BOTH the E-series and N-series markets at once.
Of course, that little observation must have slipped El Reg's columnist's mind at the time.
I swear, the Reg is on an anything-other-than-the-iPhone-bashing stint as of late.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

I think you are stepping on my original post here :) but you are spot on. I just don't get the whining over something that is easily fixed. A one compile of software that will run on all of Nokia's S60.v3 phones? This is a great idea. At least to me anyway. I don't have to get the same app twice for two different versions.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Exactly. That article was just plain ol' Nokia-bashing. I mean, you don't see people running around wishing Microsoft had never abandoned Windows 95 or Apple leaving OS9/PPC behind. Replacement applications that are native to the new operating systems come out and fill the void.
And it's not like the S80 developers can't do a little tweaking and recompile their applications to work on S60 either.
Sometimes consolidation to a single platform is a GOOD THING.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Yup. Go to www.my-symbian.com for example and you will see quite a few apps that fit nicely to fill the void.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

There are some good points made here supporting the changes, of course, but I still sympathize with customers looking at the E90 as a progression (ie, upgrade) only to be surprised by a loss of expected features.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

After having used the whole Communicator line since the 9000 model (and, ho! how much used! I have been able to wear and break even those 4 keys near the screen in my 9500, and the hinges of both the 9210 and the 9500) I hope that the *next* communicator will be a derivative of n800, linux and open-source based, with clamshell or slide-on design, touchscreen, real keyboard, and phone hw. Symbian is the past.
And, no, I won't buy the e90. My 9500 has just been "regenerated" (hinges, flat cable, screenside keys) and by now series 80 is good for me.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

I liked how the article looked at the E90 from the perspective of former Communicator users. I only used a Communicator for a very short period of time (a 9500), but I really liked how it continued the old Psion philosophy of "a computer in your pocket" (meaning that you could do anything with it you could do with a desktop -- at that point in time, obviously).

The E90 clearly abandoned that philosophy and while interoperability is a nice feature, it is not the main concern of the target demographic of the Communicator. Having more people developing more and cheaper software for the E90 is something that target couldn't care less about.

Still here and hating it...

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

However, some applications are tied to the IMEI, so you will still need to purchase a second license.

As for the Psion stuff - yes, I believe it's all true. Remember a lot of Psion staff moved to Symbian (it was a spin off from Psion), who were then bought by Nokia, so have now ended up at Nokia.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Isn't this what focus groups are for, to avoid this kind of mess?

The focus group members who gave input on the E90 are probably the same focus group members who said a hard cover wasn't necessary on the N800... I do wonder where Nokia find them, they certainly have a knack for finding the least suitable people to give feedback on future products. Talking to people who care about the old/existing products would surely have identified the failings and shortcomings in the E90 (and N800 for that matter).

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Man, Milhouse, you are getting into one of my biggest peeves. As a Quality feedback Analyst who sees one mistake after another made over customer expectations, I would truly love to watch the decision making process at work...

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Me too. It does seem strange that Nokia decided to throw away some of the old Communicator features that were clearly cherished by the loyal Communicator users. How could Nokia have been this ignorant? The possibility exists of course that Nokia were not ignorant at all and dropped the old features with full knowledge of the likely reaction, which suggests that Nokia don't give a fig for loyal users, and are happy to alienate an existing user base if it means shifting a few more units to a more fickle and less discerning set of users. Nice. :rolleyes:

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Well, if you're going to be all rational about it... :rolleyes:

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

It's not only Nokia. I own a Sony Ericsson P910i smartphone, which has what can probably be described as one of the best and smartest one-finger-control-devices (I'm talking about the 5-way rocker wheel) ever invented for a phone.

"Focus groups" told SE that the wheel was too complicated to use (which leads me to believe that at least that focus group was of simian origin, most likely chimpansees), so they dropped it on the P990 in "favour" of a 3-way rocker and two buttons. Suffize to say that that decision was not exactly applauded by the actual users of the phones and has in more than one case resulted in refusal to upgrade, or even total dropout of the SE camp.

I now believe "focus group" may be a synonym for "drunks who happen to be stumbling by our office entrance today".

That, or just apes...

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

As to the lineage of Hildon, the article is mostly correct. I have already said in several posts on this forum that Hildon was based on the Series 90 UI used in the 7700. Why people think the connection between 7700 and 770 is a new revelation, I don't know... maybe because S90 was short-lived.

One important fact is not in the article. In October 2002, Nokia inked a license agreement with RIM to put a version of the blackberry software (for non-touch screen devices) on the Communicators. If there was a PSION related project that was nixed, this is probably the reason why. The timing fits. Unfortunately, the license was not utilised by Nokia until 2006, due indirectly to the NTP wireless email patent lawsuit against RIM that first made all the headlines in 2003.

But Hildon has little in common with the E90 or even S80 - the UI was HEAVILY updated and modified (perhaps by former Psion people) to get the Series 90 UI for touch screen devices. As to the E90 not being a good Communictor - it was not intended to be a true Communicator. Series 80 Communicators have been lagging and in jeopardy for a long time, and once S60 3rd edition started doing rather well and could be adapted to the wider screen, they were doomed. Communicator loyalists should have revolted when it was announced that the next generation would use S60. It was obvious then. Of course, there are things in S80 that are not in S60!

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

And that is precisely what the old Communicator users are unhappy about - the really good S80 features loved by users that Nokia saw fit to ditch while offering not very much in return.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Foc-us!



... all of us?

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

I read the article. Not exactly ditched, those that loved those features can keep using the S80 Communicators. There won't be S80 sw development anymore, but there wasn't that much when the E90 was released. And adapting S60 to the Communicator HW was hard enough, especially knowing that Nokia does not throw money around, I'm not surprised that it didn't duplicate all of the functionality.

The returns are not completely in yet. The transition to S60 was intended to reap the benefits of 3rd party apps and you have to allow time for that to happen before making a judgment.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

The impression I got from the article was that S80 could be used one handed whereas S60 cannot, and complex tasks were easier to accomplish in S80 than S60. And the loss of fax functionality may seem like no big deal but think how many offices still have fax machines and also consider that fax machines far outnumber scanners in a typical office environment meaning that fax functionality is quite often critical for remote users.

While Nokia could have tweaked the S60 UI to satisfy these use cases which appear important to the existing Communicator user base, it seems Nokia chose instead to ignore them. I doubt that any amount of additional 3rd party apps will make up for the shortcomings of a device that existing users simply don't want to use. It looks to me that Nokia may be out of touch with it's Enterprise users, which is rather unfortunate as the Enterpise division has only just turned in it's first ever profitable quarter.

I can understand the logic behind the move to consolidate on S60, however I don't understand why Nokia would release a premier product such as the E90 which is in terms of day to day usage inferior to it's predecessors. In some ways I see the same scenario playing out here (with internet tablets) - the attitude seems to be that Nokia knows best. :(

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Incorrect. Yes some apps are tied to the IMEI. This is a given. However there is not one company that I have come across with the software that I use that has made me purchase another license. They all, as far as in my case, simply migrate the license to a new device.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

It sounds like a system where the bean-counters and marketing guys got together and over ruled the sense makers. Hard cases cost money and would naturally eat into the bottom line profits. The marketing guys, who probably don't own an N800, saw this a superfluous piece of equipment anyway out voted the practical real world guys.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Valid points all of them but DIGITAL SCANNERS are now really hitting the enterprise market, well I see quite a few of them. Some offices when ahead and removed the fax machines. This could account for this in the E90's case. I would guess, hope, that Nokia did some sort of study on this before arbitrarily removing applications. Personally, I like the standardization of S60. One app, run many concept. Now it is up to the 3rd party guys to fill in the gaps Nokia created.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

I thought we were talking about using the software on two devices concurrently...

I agree most will happily move a license to a new IMEI (if only to handle warranty replacements / stolen devices), but in the context of using it on 2 devices together you would need a second license.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Sorry, my bad. I could have explained this better initially. Yes, they will gladly migrate it. In the end they want you to come back for that upgrade. :)

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Yeah, Karel, it reminds me of Microsoft's decision to drop the Binder tool with the advent of Office XP. During the private beta I called up one of the beta managers and told him how idiotic that was. He replied that they'd conducted a survey and a small percentage of people out of the whole replied that they never used it and agreed it should be removed. I pointed out to him that he wasn't considering the silent status quo majority, comprised of people who used it, thought it was a good feature but didn't use it, didn't understand what it was for but didn't think it needed deleting, etc. It dawned on him that their survey had been flawed, but he said by then it was an upper management decision and was a done deal. At that point I told him they'd missed the boat, and that in all probability the true majority was people who didn't understand the Binder's benefit, due to Microsoft's poor job of creating awareness. He agreed, but... out it went. A shame, because it was a powerful tool.

I wonder how many other executive decisions are made based on tainted feedback...

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

As to UI, you've got it backwards, S60 was designed for one thumb operation on cell phones and S80 was designed specifically for the Communicator, which had unusually wide screen format, four soft keys, function keys and QWERTY, and is very DISsimilar to Hildon. Changing the UI was NOT an easy change, like some imply. Yes, loss of a fax is a big deterent, especially in Indonesia etc where the Communicator has a rabid fan base in part because business is still conducted w/ fax there, but a 3rd party (or NOkia) will fill that quickly.

Nokia/ES did not ignore these considerations. They made a business decision that S80 is a niche product with little 3rd party app support, that the field of handheld computer-like devices is getting very competitive, and that the migration to S60 was necessary to keep the product successful. They are trying to expand the appeal to business users, BB users, etc., who have never seen a Nokia device as a computer-like tool. Those people ask about software compatibility all the time. Their conclusion is that global sales of the S60 Communicator will exceed the sales of any previous Communicator in any previous year, and bring in NEW customers, and they are probably right. Nokia is a company that demands performance and looks 3 years out and not at the past.

We should worry that the IT may come to be seen a niche product with little widespread appeal. (Not to mention the E90, when it enjoys substantial 3rd party app support in a year or so and relatively easy SW development, will be a competitor to the IT for users who are not price conscious.)

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

A good review about the E90.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

While I'm sure there's truth in what you say, SD, the fact remains that Nokia could have easily mitigated the ire of that rabid fan base (doesn't every company want them?) by at least making sure customers had immediate access to apps (3rd party or otherwise) that filled the major gaps at the time of launch-- not months later. See a parallel with the internet tablets here?

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Great post SD69. What I do not understand by way of complaints is that the E90 simply smokes the older Communicators in shear power and multi-tasking alone. The old guard seems to be complaining about a few MIA applications while ignoring the fact that everything they can do on the inside of the phone, they can also do on the outside. This is because of the standardization of S60 throughout the phone. As I mentioned before, faxes are going the way of the Doo Doo Bird. Digital Senders are hot and happening. Scan it, PDF it, email it. Done. Having a standardized OS platform for developers should yield some pretty robust and interesting software while hopefully keeping development costs low. I think the article was, as someone here put it, Nokia bashing as these missing features surely can not be considered device killers.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Don't these apps already exist? My LonelyCatGames Internet radio will work on my N95 and E90. This app was available long before the E90 was launched. Consumers had access to these applications. Maybe they were too lazy to look or didn't feel that they should have to pay for them, but Nokia did not let the customer down by failing to provide apps that were already on the market. They were there when the device launched, not months, weeks or even days later.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Yes, a tradeoff was made. The E90 went to market quickly but the opinion of the former S80 Communicator loyalists is not determinative of whether it was wrong to do so. As I said, Nokia ES is going after a new broader class of business user and the determinant of product success is whether it pleases that broader group of people, not whether it displeases a much smaller group of people. Holding off launch to please everyone has its risks. Unfortunately, this article focuses on the negatives. The E90 is a good, if expensive, product and has been relatively well received.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

I agree with what you say, SD, I just tend to lean a little in the other direction. Yes, there was an opportunity to broaden the base. Yes, there was the risk of offending what will turn out to be a fragment of the overall intended base... but I still believe there are better ways to handle the situation than was done, and this improvment actually revolves mostly not around tech and apps but PR.

Nokia has acknowledged severe shortcomings in that effort. I can't divulge details, but a very serious internal effort is underway to understand just how far Nokia executive management is divorced from the end users (if/when at all) and see where there are some problematic misconceptions. Those misconceptions do exist, and are strongly ingrained in some areas, so it will be interesting to me to see what degree of new receptiveness evolves.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

One problem can be simply that the feedback will use cross sections of the user community to which the device / software has not been popular to date - ie they use the feedback to gain new market growth and increase sales. As such, the current user base is often forgotten about.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

I heard it was down to cost - the new phones used different architectures and chipsets, and it was cheaper to modify S60 to support the new screen formats / keyboards / dual screens etc. than it was to update S80.

I must admit, seeing a SatNav program working on the outer screen does show the power of the new E90 that would never have been possible with the old S80.

As for a lack of 3rd party app support, most of the S80 developers are constantly moaning about the flakey APIs they have to use which often crash, so maybe Nokia should look closer to home for the cause of the demise of S80...

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

WhaWhat I find interesting about the Register article, and many of the contributors here, is
how they claim to speak for 'the business user'. Not so, people that read the Reg,
and this forum, are tech heads (possibly tech heads in business, but tech heads
nonetheless) and if any such REALLY knows what the typical business user wants, better than a formalised focus group study in any case, I'd be amazed. Non hitech businessmen are a weird bunch. A few weeks ago in a boardroom meeting one of the execs asked me why he kept getting OUT OF MEMORY errors on his E61. As it turns out he didnt know that he had left all the apps open, or that his phone was multitasking, or even what multitasking really is. I have owned communicators since the 9000 and s60s since the 6600, and have very seldom wanted to send a fax. And never known a fellow associate even mention the fax capabilities of their communications. These people often dont even know that it is possible to send a fax from a computer, let alone a phone. I exagerate, of course...

While I do agree that the UI of the 9300(/&i) was purty slick, the e61 and then e61i was a successful departure and first salvo into qwerty s60. The E90 will continue and improve on this, no doubt.

Re: Article to read, about E90 and Hildon.
 

Excellent post, and right on the mark. With the software already available for the S60 v3, the E90 will simply benefit from software that was tested, and refined well before the E90 hit the shelves.