Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I seriously would like to see a thread, in Off Topic that addresses these things. But not in an official community thread that doesn't directly name or talk about any of the aforementioned.

In fact, want me to start that thread? I do not mind airing out my grievances. And in Off Topic, it might not get closed as quickly as this might if we continue here.

EDIT: This thread is the spill over from this thread to air out grievances, ask questions and resolve the outstanding accusations in a very adult, responsible and hopefully respectful manner.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

My bad... The minutes were supposed to read:[*] A few people on TMO are going crazy...

And frankly, I think going crazy is fitting for the fire-storm that was the thread in question, and not offensive. (I say that being one of the people that took part in the thread...)

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Can we change the name of council to board of directors?

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

What's crazy is that no resolution came about from any of those discussions. What's crazy is that despite others saying there was some merit to some of the accusations, they were not addressed.

Community Council needs to think about addressing those or understand that we, the community, will question them every step of the way from hereon.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Gerbick, people will speculate and question Council no matter what happens.

AFAIC: Quim wrapped this up nicely in his post.

The horse left the barn on Tuesday. Complaining that the barn door was open for the last 2 months on Wednesday isn't going to magically bring the horse back. Blaming the stable hands that you hired last month, who were told policy is to always leave the barn door open, even after questioning that at least twice, also not useful. Burning down the barn won't help either... but apparently that's what everyone has decided is the fitting response.

As for what Council will do about it? Please tell me, what can I (or any Council member) do about it? The winner list was sent to Quim before I, or any other Council member, even saw the TMO thread. It was already out of our hands before anyone had a complaint posted. He no doubt hit the "send" button not long after that. I doubt there's much that could be done to change anything, even if everyone involved deeply desired to do so.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=143

As well as you could contact him, iknow final list was delivered today, and i saw all other councils worring and hurring all sudden about it, with each one asking if he got list.

I didn't want to answer or write here anymore, and if you wouldn't answer just to be last, i wouldn't. But don't say nothing can be done and don't put on topic three lines you discussed how you hated and Arie. If you wanted to disscus at least why it happened and what was the problem? Why people were angry? Btw a lot just didn't speak up, check #maemo log or #harmattan log at least. it's like you like to say documented and than re-think before stating things especially in official meeting =)

It reminds me the movie "God bless america" when you just don't get the point.

Btw just wanted to say, that award as well was for past deeds, while few of you may have those, but not all, and been elected 5 of 7, and beeing only 1 month council is more future deeds.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Saw us how? We live in 4 different countries, physically hundreds to thousands of miles apart? I was the only one on IRC most of last week, excluding the meeting (which was logged pre and post above). I'd really love to know how you have such good track of everything, because right now I'm having a hard time keeping up with what's going on.

Actually, the winners list was sent well before the Council meeting on Friday (at 18:00 UTC), as you can see from the logs in the link above. Ivan notes at 21:18 that it was already sent, and that I was clearly out of the loop for not knowing that and what had happened with Fcrochik's device from the night before. And yes, apparently there was some issue and Quim had to be poked to check his mail (it apparently got filtered in some way). I didn't find out about that until just a bit ago either.

Again, I ask: What would you have me do? Rise up and rebel against Council, and Quim, and the community at large? Most of the community actually seems to agree with all this, including the Nokia rep handing out the devices. Should I champion a group of people that have done little but insult and attack the community volunteers getting these awards, if not me personally?

Despite your claims to the contrary, I've counted all of about twenty non-Council people on TMO that have bothered to post on this topic, despite it being #1 on the chart for most of the past 5 days. The result (based on people posting, not number of posts) was a pretty even split, for and against. Of the 8 people on IRC that said something about it, 4 were negative, 4 positive, and all but 2 of them chimed in on the TMO thread as well.

I really don't see a ground-swell here wanting to rip devices from people's hands to give them to others. I see a small group of people, many with misunderstandings on what CA was even about. I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns, but when all those concerns were discussed and decided in the distant past (including by at least one of the people whacking the bees nest now), it seems a bit off to me. If anything, most people who have commented to me are just fine with how things went.

I'll note, with one exception, nobody is refusing their award. And his refusal came before this debate started; and as far as I know is unrelated to his feelings on this matter, if he has any.

I find it wonderful that you're one of the few people that actually picked up that this was for past deeds. So many of the other posts were about what were these people promising to do to get the devices... and what apps had they developed. Again, as I stated, I didn't consider current status as Council in my decision. But who cares about the facts, or reads what I write anymore? I'm part of Council, and therefore a crook and cheat, right?

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

You're welcome. :) But really, when you've done everything you can to draw the spotlight to yourself, why would you complain when you get it?

Btw, nice job on editing the log... a job <slanted new agency / fundamentalist religion here> would be proud of. Take a 90 minute meeting and clip out 3 lines from it to make it sound like you were the key topic of conversation.

Really? Why would you want to use that outdated technology"?

But then clearly Council is just here to put people down, by:

• holding our meetings in secret where others can't attend
• keeping "outdated technology" in our pockets
• meeting irregularly
• never posting minutes or full logs of meetings

Just pure dictators, all of us. Me especially, hoarding all this info, hiding it so you can't see. I must be, being one of the people you singled out in just about all your posts on this topic, right from the start. I post information, and you reply, questioning, demanding explanations and more info and attacking me when I tell you that you're being questioning, demanding and rude.

Maybe I should just stop all that? Is that what's preferred? That Council makes no announcements? Or stops giving out any information? It would certainly be a lot easier for me. And it would give you a lot less to complain about. Not that lack of real facts would prevent people from just making up their own or assuming things. But at least I couldn't be quoted out of context any more...

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

I think that this situation should result in preparing a policy for the future CA (if there's any), so that situation like the current one will not take place.

@Estel, I'm a new member, but I can see that your post does not contribute to the discussion and is only "argumentum ad personam", and as such should be avoided.

EDIT: The post by Estel that I comment was deleted by moderator, so this part isn't relevant any more.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

I have lso another proposal. Since maemo is dead. I think it would be a nice tribute to have a logo competition and vote for best Maemologotype and maybe posible to buy it on a t-shirt?

And maybee collect some money for a possible extraxtion from Nokia and the Elop regime.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Speculation will invariably happen. The problem is that some of it should be addressed - the normal speculation, not the outrageous stuff.

That's a serious problem, my friend.

As a council, this community looks to you for resolution. Not the other way around. I think that's the major issue overall. You're asking, when a few options came up, they were immediately shot down and nothing has been put in place of it.

Absolutely nothing. Just more rhetoric. Again, I'd consider my statement as an inevitably - this council will be heavily scrutinized and second-guessed due to the way it has started. That needs to be addressed and answered by the council; not the community.

Then without options and with outlets seemingly going to be closed down each and every time - one down, will this one follow? who knows yet - then what would you lot have us do?

Sit by, patiently until you all are willing to address it? Or just let it be pushed under the rug since it benefits the council? I mean, seriously... until it's specified otherwise, folks will assume that nobody will address things, we will remain in the dark as to what is going on and only told what's important to us when the rest is left for us to devour... which looks like nothing more than scraps.

Simply stated, address the observed (by us) behavior, state what will/will not happen in the very near future or do not and enjoy being questioned for each and every move that this council may make.

The rest is my personal feelings, the above is for the benefit of the community...

In fact, I'm having issues with why I'm even staying around. I'll never be rewarded for my tenure here, I'll never receive a device to encourage me to restart my Qt development or transfer my Android apps and apparently, I'll never get answers to questions to why the behavior that's currently going on went on other than it seems like you people (this council) are out to line your pockets before the end comes.

You don't have to address that, I'll have to sort that out myself. But the aforesaid bits about answering the community, the council needs to address that.

That's my personal take.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Me, and your post was directly answering estel so both got deleted. Can we have a thread name for this discussion? I'd like to move it from this thread to it's own.

EDIT: deleted the followup as well, @Dave behave! I am in the mood to hand out infraction-points in the way they are supposed to be today!

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

@chemist. what is infractions points? what do they do?

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

They are like 'ban-karma'.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Well, maybe because "suggestions" Yoiu've mentioned were absurd'ish nonsense? Ever thought about that, before starting lectures?

As far as I'm concerned, "rhetoric", as You call Council's (kind) explanations, was about fact a) how CA rules were crafted by community b) how many times they were announced c) how much time there was to suggest something else.

You're quite talkative one, but I don't recall protest from Your side. Now, You demand "action" took upon some unjustified, minor (as per requested by complete minority) frustrated (half of them are people that submitted for CA - never complaining about rules, when had chance to get 'freebie'), ones.

Do You realize, how many times a week, someone come with - at best - not wise idea, and - more usual - completely absurd one? The fact, that You've found Yourself supporting wrong group, doesn't mean it's going to be "addressed".

You seem to know the "accusations" very well. Now, go to the - thankfuly - closed topic, and find 1st response from every Council member. Read it carefuly. Do it again, following links mentioned, refferences to places and situations, where Community itself shaped CA rules, and how Councilors will participatein CA as candidates.

If You still won't have a clue - sorry, I can't help You.

/Estel

// Edit

Current discussion on mailing list shows quite well, how proportions between reasonable and troll'ish parts of Community are set. One guy, who "yesterday" submitted to CA and wanted device, now wrote soap-opera like mail, how Maemo doesn't have a chance with android, and that's he leaving Community. Of course, he also haven't refrain from attacking Council for CA.

Next xxx mails from different Community members mixed him with ground, pointing out his hypocitic behavior, lack of knowledge, + people expressed grattitude for Council, due to fullfiling hard task of picking best candidates from list.

But, of course, when someone say that mailing list is to talk about serkious thing, and every thread on TMO must end - earlier or later - in trolll wars... You're shocked by disrespect ;)

// Edit 2

As my previous post was deleted for murky reasons - I would also like to point out, that I don't accept Arie accusations as done by "voice of Harmattan" - as per my best knowledge, people working on Harmattan doesn't want him to represent Them, and don't trust him.

I hope that this rephrasing was kind enough, to satisfy our moderators (no problem guys, I know that from time to time, You must also mark Your existence ;) Especially after ignoring 30 pages-long topic, full of all kind of hard insults... Sure, writting that "someone is not liked" - literally - require deletion now.).

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Woody, i understand situation, but if prev. problem existed and even people who think all of the council should get device, thought it was not nice way to do it. You just made second mistake, by simply ignoring it and even making second mistake:
You decided not to pay attention of the first one, but to discuss personally Arie instead on logged official meeting, reminding that there is ignore list. And i think newbies and other people can follow suggestion and ignore him. I think you as people can have personal problems with any member. But as councils you should understand, in official meeting you need to be objective and can't allow yourself to do things like that. I don't think that Arie or anyone deserve to read personal attacks on logs of council -meeting. He is not a troll, he might be little bit too emotion, but it's not a crime.

And i don't want to suggest you answers, but there are always ones. And if you would talk about them at #maemo or meeting, you at least would show that you do care. But it seems like you just keep the excuse, that most people agree with you, so no — most people agree that it's okay council to get phones, but they understand that's the way you did it is not right. Even in thread before it was addressed from people who support you, but you just look at support you part and not whole thing.

And it's never too late to make changes or at least to apologetic and in front of people you personal attack in prev thread (yes it's not fair as few started first, but you need to be smarter as you are council). To apologies in front of Arie, to apologies for the conflicts of interests.

I'll just give a small example how it's not good for maemo and community. You discussed the fund raising for OBS and other things for community, but after what happened with phones not everyone would be able to trust you and donate.

And just simple respect for people who do not ignore any problem and do not discuss and pay attention only to those who support you. I for example tried not to personal attack you here in public, though i could. I just know that here the matter is not who is good and who is bad, but the problem we had and with personal attacks we would just stop in the place, hurt each other and will not continue anywhere.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

False. ~4 people think that it's not right, where half of them applied for devices themselves, and started crying only after final results.

Others understand, that it was discussed since april, announcedd via every possible communication channel, and that there were almost 2 months to rise issues.

Unfortunately, You're on this first group. Of course, it's Your right - Your choice. But don't expect, that we will "address" (read: change) decisions, due to dictate of loud, but small and irrationale, minority.

/Estel

Ps.

You're also spreading FUD about personal attacks - if I remember correctly, first ~8 rephrasings of same, logical answer, were written quite officially by Woody. I absolutely understand, that after nth time of rephrasing same thing, for few people that don't *want* to listen, he started to point out where problem lies (i.e. in bad will and mentality).

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Please people, stop polluting community threads.
Like Estel stated, there is no one of the very few people screaming out, that will listen to what we have to say as a council.
Enough people have agreed, before, and after the CA Awards that Council members getting a device is OK.

As a council (I refer to Quims post here, we as a council did not have to even vote "on ourself" but previously have been prioritized. This did not happen, thos from the council that submitted was evaluated on equal terms as the rest of the submissions.

Surely, some will disagree on the selections made. Thats life.

You are all free to come with comments for or against. But I think it is fair to say that Council did indeed come with opinions and responses. In some cases, we are just not heard.
Out of respect for the community, feel free to create an off-topic thread, but please, do not fill this thread with these arguments

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

For the record, I've not recommended a suggestion. Not a one.

So let me start with this one: learn how to responsibly speak to other adults or practice reticence. Address me as calmly and politely as I have addressed you. If you're unable to do so, then the problem starts and stops with you. I think that's a fair request.

It's rhetoric because it solves nothing. Rhetoric that requires action that would resolve the existing inquiries are called solutions. It's easier to understand those if your grasp of the English language extends past your resoundingly typical condescending tone.

You damn right I'm talkative now. I didn't protest, I asked questions. I paid attention to what was happening and once I saw inaction and general dismissive attitudes from the council, I have enough information to request that something be done.

That's how an adult should do things. Inform themselves, arm themselves with information, ask proper questions and once those items are in place, proceed down a path. This is the path I've chosen.

I asked for answers. Either you have them or you do not. Useless communication that produces nothing is not what I'm after however that's all you possess until you prove otherwise.

I seem to have noticed this currently... go on.

No thanks. I read that thread enough before it was closed. Now either answer the question of how do you people (Council) expect us to trust you people (Council) if you're too busy enriching yourselves or expect the consequences of your actions - lack of trust by an entire community.

And I'd suggest that you exercise caution whilst addressing me; your response can be indicative of how the entire council is regarded.

Your tone leaves a lot to be desired. I kindly suggest that you learn how to address other adults properly. I think even you can understand that sentiment.

To whom are you addressing the above? Your last post was removed because it was a personal attack. Learn the rules that you're supposed to enforce and abide by first. Then you will see the error in your prior post as well as this one.

Stop with the personal attacks. They're unnecessary and are a black eye on what's left of this community.

As stated above, your tone and obvious brutish manner of speaking leaves me aghast of what you might say next. Learn some tact. It's sorely lacking.

Oh... and come up with a non-absurd response to how you people (Council) will address the disgruntled people in this community. I am now one of them due to your tone mostly. Don't let it be because of your actions as well.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

You again write it as wrong people, and other most people. You personal attack. And you go around, as no — i tried to talk in general and politely, and i did my reseach, just check #maemo and #harmattan logs, to understand that there are more respectable people who would disagree with you.

Maybe in soviet Russia (no offence to russian people, as i'm myself russian) if most decided, other's opinion is suddenly wrong. But again those most, i don't know who are they, few of your supporters wrote that you should get and deserve device, but they told not the way you got them. All you saw is you need to get the device, but if even your supporters telling that not that way, maybe you at least should talk on meeting why people said that and how you can improve, but you decide to ignore it and just don't care about as you call us "small wrong group" that wrote soap. You see, maybe in war the counterattack, but as official council, you need to explain and not play war games. As i see it — i'm standing for my principal and try to prove my point, trying to avoid personal. And you just make drama by making it personal and attacking people.
I was in competition btw, and i was out before final, but i didn't say nothing than as again i only found out you were in list after i saw winning list. So it's not coz i didn't get device ( i even didn't have a chance and i knew it, as i saw all the monsters of maemo and harmattan there).

And i know e-eyes good enuf to know, he doesn't care about device and he would be ok without, he just care about the situation and especially people talking about him not in good way, while he even didn't represent himself here, it just took all motivation from him.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Calling people trolling, discusing them, mentioning ignore list, calling absurd and wrong group is feels personal. Saying we are making drama is personal.

And ~4 people is a FUD like you call it. Or you want me to count?

And stop telling on that there was time, i don't need to check all maillists and TMO threads and read all rules, just to know judges can't put themselves in list, i have those knowledge way before this competition and i just thought it would be wrong by default and you wouldn't let dare to do it. So i didn't searched your mistakes or something as it wasn't my aim, i just thought as council chosen by community you would do your job the best way, so i relayed on you, but i found out i was wrong only after and that actually i need to check you and can't trust with closed eyes. That's my point!

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Wrong. I didn't apply, I genuinely congratulated the winners. There were others that had done so.

There's no "crying", there are some folks that are asking for what were the rules before and after you people (Council) appointed yourselves as winners.

It's that simple. The fact that one of your own (Council) didn't nominate himself after asking the question whether or not he should/shouldn't shows me leagues more than your responses.

Again man... your tone is downright horrible. In fact, I've stated all truths above; feel free to ignore me wholly. I kindly request that you do because you've not shown the same tone as I've and others have shown.

I'd just rather not have you address me whatsoever.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Please split the posts that contaminate this thread and label it: "Community Council - Questions, Answers and Grievances" or something the like and moved to Off Topic.

Thanks in advance. I'd rather not have an official community thread polluted as such.

Re: [Community] What is it about? Council - Board of Directors
 

Alter the starting post as you like please and I think you may be able to change the threadname aswell, if not just use "report this" and request changes please

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

I think that this statement might not be accurate. I, personally, have nothing against council members being awarded the devices - more, I think it is beneficial to the community. However, the process in which it was done turned out to be not the most fortunate one. So, for the future, as I've suggested before in that other thread, I think that council members could be awarded devices separately from the community awards, not to raise the issue of "judging your own cause".
And I'm pretty sure that this is not "absurdish nonsense", as you stated in your previous post.
I have no intention of reviewing the current results but simply to draw conclusions for the future.

Re: [Community] What is it about? Council - Board of Directors
 

I think the topic is more related to council and community, i thought it's better to be there.

Btw i wonder, if maemo would exist after 5 months, new council will get devices? or they wouldn't deserve?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Who added and removed board of directors in the thread name? Liked it much more. Who changing the thread name all the time?

Re: [Community] What is it about? Council - Board of Directors
 

The edit worked, thank you for splitting the threads.

I think that's why some folks might be upset. The devices were given to some that have outwardly stated that they will do absolutely nothing to advance the Harmattan community whereas others have shown a willingness to do so.

It's sorta a waste if that's 100% true - but I'd be speculating since a lot of edits, arguments and statements were fueled by passion and not logic.

1. Not if it exists, but how it exists. Current council, together with others involved are working on how to keep this community alive.
2. Several issues can make an influence on whereas a new council would get a device. Will Nokia award for one. Given this negative surroundings, I would say it has no benefit for Nokia.
3. Probably. As they would be elected by community, which will also (I hope) be based on their individual work for this community.
2+3 Noone has the answer, given the uncertainty on the future development of this community.

Be careful for what you wish, you may get more than what you wish for.

FTR that is not true. Personally I was elected (I believe) partly for wanting to advance the Harmattan community!

Re: [Community] What is it about? Council - Board of Directors
 

Agreed but it was decided before that it's for past deeds, what buggs me that council members are only 1 month so it makes it more future deeds than past. As well as election was 5/7, so i know few of them contributed, but still it doesn't mean all of them deserve. But if most people say they deserve, than even this is okay, but again its not about who deserve, but about ethic and conflicts of interests. I just believe if it was made once, it can be done twice and if you don't speak up it would be normal behavior here. And if today it's just CA, next time they might spend maemo funds not the best way. it even reminds me the situation with Elop and Nokia, as there are less meego supporters in internets, most people said it's dead before it was released and no one from Nokia stopped Elop, so we have now what we have.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

[/mod] As I said somewhere else before, the council should get loaners which they have to give to the next-gen-council... but on the other hand some of the council deserved taking part in this CA ralley (it is an award for past contributions), and who ever says again that voices didn't get out till after the winner-list should read maemo related channel-logs (IRC) and find me the dates for posting them here, sick of reading it.

Even if only few, there was concern about council deciding AND receiving from the first time it was mentioned on the mailing list.

The current council was elected from 7 which means that, although not usual, people without history or with bad-history will get elected so I do not agree with "If they are elected council they have good history in maemo already".

My 2c![mod]

I won't split this discussion in bits and pieces, I try to be around if you need further moderation.

Re: [Community] What is it about? Council - Board of Directors
 

Did not state it was you. It was one of the other recipients, IIRC. However, even that is immaterial and will not alter the outcome.

If anything, some of the ruckus is about how some folks were selected whereas one of them hadn't even logged into this site since February or January or last year. There's other folks that had made questionable statements, some of them are still making questionable statements to other members; and that's the issue.

If the community lasts past the next 5 months, this will probably be the very last time anybody will get a device from Nokia. It's invariably going to be seen as a smash and grab by some.

I'd just rather hear reasonable statements as to some of the picks. Not all though. And not the ones that have been yelled about ad infinitum.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I'm sorry, but that's a terrible argument. If you must express an opinion that some specific council members are "without history or with bad-history" then come out and say it, don't hide it behind some passive-aggressive mumbo jumbo about the number of candidates!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

he doesn't want to be person as i understand, and it's less important about who, it's more important that argument of council was elected is merit enuf. And just pointed out that it wasn't hard to pass election and i would add that 1 month of council (i even include the judging 3 weeks) is not past deeds.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

My biggest mistake is participation in unfair, dishonest COUNCIL AWARDS.

Damn you, coucils.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

The basic arguments can be summed up as such:
1) There was a clear case of conflict of interest. Not many users of the community follow mailing lists especially newer members to know about the discussion going on there. A few users via mailing list, the thread on TMO and IRC did express their reservations but the decision to be the judge and the contestant at the same time was not reversed.

This was one of the reasons woody did not self-nominate himself for the device award.

Till date, the Council has been defending their rights to the device but not apologizing for the conflict of interest nor are they mentioning how this can ever be avoided in the future.

2) Harmattan users saw how two prominent devs; itsnotabigtruck and e-yes were not awarded their devices but the devices were awarded to some lesser deserving members instead. What I and some others who have voiced out have felt is that we know this is surely the last place for those two devs to get their devices as their work is not sanctioned by Nokia hence they won't be able to get it from the other 75 devices quota.

To add insult to injury, although the awards were for past deeds, there were clearly members who received the devices who voiced out that they will NOT be developing for harmattan. We understand that's their choice but studying the recent situation where the existence of our community is uncertain for the devices to have been awarded to these members instead of the aforementioned two devs was unfair.

Still, we felt that if the Council stood by their decision, they should have not allocated 4/4 devices for themselves. SD69 obviously deserves the device the most in the Council but the other 3 Councillors should have been pragmatic and sent 2 of their devices to the two devs instead.

3) There were personal attacks by the Councillors on members due to these members taking the Councillors to task for for what we felt was unfairness and a huge conflict of interest.

I understand some of you felt that Arie or others were getting personal, their frustrations were being raised with every evading response given where no apology was forthcoming and the right to a device was emblished even further.

4) Some arguments from the Councillors were just trying to cover their backs such as we've already sent the list to qgill what can we do now? Everyone could read that qgill had said he hasnt had the list yet so no device has been sent out at the time of your response and our discussions. A weak argument that further strengthened some doubts about the personal greed of some Councillors.

5) Even after such a long discussion the Council simply refused to back down of their stance and older members of the Community came to back them partially. Members who said that lets move on as its looking bad for our community and they didn't object to the awards but to the process were thaked by some Councillors and cited later as proof of support! This is uncomprehensible that when some members are giving you face by supporting your decision but not your chosen process you don't get their point. An apology, a decision to make do the decision, promise not to repeat such mistakes etc but nothing happened.


I know I've written a very long post, its my longest ever, but I think this more or less summarises the main issues everyone has that have not been addressed till date by the Council.

Furthermore, even though we backed out of the old thread, Council repeated their disregard for members by posting in the Minutes thread about some TMO members going crazy in addition to Arie being singled out in IRC discussions between the Council.

Shouldn't the Council have let the matter rest instead of adding more fuel to the fire?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

The council members dedicate their free time to this community, each and everyone of them deserve the free device!!!
How come that many of those active in these troll-feeding threads never appear in any technical discussions???

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

just read one post above you, you telling the same thing was told over and over again, while it was answered and got no followed response. If you repeat same thing few times it doesn't make it more or less true.

As well it's pitty we never got constructive full answer to posts like one above, when everything sumed up and explained, most we can get answeres to parts, but again if you look at parts you miss whole image and may get it wrong.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

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Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

What is your solution to this never ending story? Give all devices to me?

It's a conflict of interest. No what?

What are you after...