Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Last year I bought iPaq hx2495's for 6 employees. I spent more on each of those than I did on my own n800 a couple of weeks ago.

My first thought was "wow, it would be great if everyone ran these at the office." I was thinking of all the cool apps and some custom Python stuff I could have written for them. The mapping software, etc. I'd love to do that.

Then I realized it just can't happen. Here's why:

1) Installing Python is a pain in the butt. I have to manually add a repository to get Python to install. My users wouldn't be able to do this. (there's no correct 1-click install for Python without adding a repository by hand) I've run into many issues installing software so far, including not being able to install most of the games visible in repositories on a brand new because of missing requirements that generates a cryptic "Package file not found" or some such when you try to install them.

2) There's no sync. I can sync my personal calendar with Google, but there's no sync or decent contact management software bundled with. They should gobble up GPE and make it standard, then create a Windows sync utility for it - or heck even sync contacts with Google would work for a lot of people.

3) They couldn't use Word or OOo documents on them.

I know it's partially open-source and the end-users can solve some of these issues. For my own personal use, NONE of those are issues because I'm technically capable.

But, I couldn't imaging slapping down another $3000 on these ($500 each after mem card and leather case) without some sort of contact sync. In the meantime, my employees will continue to use PocketPC.

Yes, I know it's an "Internet Tablet" and not a PIM. Unfortunately the market (i.e. my users) seem to expect PIM features in a handheld device for some reason. ;)

I understand that Nokia has targeted the home user / hobby user with this product, but in so doing, I'm not able to expose my users to such an amazing device. And it's people like me who really spend the money on handheld devices in the US anyway. I've had 5 different handheld devices, and not once has my personal money gone to buy them. Former employers provided them, and now that I have my own business, it provides them to me and my staff who would benefit from them.

So, the day an average user can run average software and sync their contacts without dependency hell is the day I start considering these as my next replacement handhelds for employees.

In the meantime, I'm lovin' mine!

And, I'm thinking I might overcome this in one way... There's software for Linux that reads barcodes using a webcam, and I have a LOT of barcodes in the warehouse... I think I might set one of my programmers to write an app around zebra for the n800.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Which personal calendar are you talking about? I'd love to be able to sync my calendar info on the N800 with whatever Web-based calendar, but I've been out of luck so far. Any advice would be appreciated.

I must agree. If there's anything I loathe about the N800, it is the lack of PIM features. Yes, I can use the GPE apps, but they don't sync with any desktop PIM apps. That is a major drawback for me.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

I agree on the repository hell. Why does it have to be so complicated and haphazard?

The stupid apps manager refres craps out when one repository is down? How stupid is that? Also having to edit one rep at a time instead of a laundry list is just as a pain.

Also why the hell does an app become uninstallable with a missing lib, yet go into red pill mode, you can find the lib and install it? Why can't it just find the lib regardless what mode you are in?

Yeh, as much as I love my n800, I hate the lame dependencey hell that has become "unix bureaucracy". Why can't .deb "packages" be self contained?

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

I don't know, I kind of like it. If it craps out, go to the log and find what repos are bad and fix it. Otherwise, I like it when theres updates the are almost automatic. Registering a Windows program or PDA program doesn't do a thing, they won't tell when theres an upgrade.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

well I sync my N800, through googlecalendar to my iCal which then syncs to my Fossil wrist PDA. I only enter events on the N800 so I don't worry about other things. BUT there is software available that will allow 2 way syncing between iCal and Google Calendar (through a third party server though) so I could potentially sync back and forth.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Now you know why it's called the N800 and not the E800.
Honestly, why is it that some folks think every single handheld device HAS to have business features?
You've totally gone about this the wrong way. You don't try to bend a device to work for your company you look for the best device that will already work with your company.

You're better off getting your "employees" E61i or E90 cell phones instead. If you have an Exchange 2003 backend then they can sync email, contacts, and calendar wirelessly with Mail for Exchange.

How many damn times does it have to be said already?
The N800 is a consumer-oriented device, not a business-oriented device!

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Evidently, a lot. ;)

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

the idea of a package-system isn't bad. it way it is done here in maemo must simply get better. but many popular errors are simply caused by the graphical package manager, not by the repositorys (even when some of them are temporary down). there are popular systems as the debian/ubuntu repositorys which shows how uncomplicated it can be.

i find it curious too, that there are for example by far not all applications from maemo garage in the maemo.org repository.

believe me. it is good the way it is. no deb package should contain all-necessary components. thats the reason why you split components into different packages. so, you can manually choose which parts gets updated. perhaps it should now where possibly to find the needed things (but there are security reason against it). but in the end, packages MUST stay alone, or one day you will have similar situation as you have on windows.

you are right! the graphical frontend of the package-manager is simply crap.
it simply leaks with the following things.
- when just one respository is not availible the whole update process failes
- the mentioned thing with the lib you can't install in normal mode
- sometimes the package-manager just can't find all files in a repository. (server closed connection #bug) but console apt-get works flawless

greetz,
loki

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

I don't think mail/contact/calendar synchronization is necessarily business-oriented. I'd like to be able to create/update/delete contact information, calendar events and what not on my desktop PC when at home, and be able to view them on my N800 on the road. Likewise, I'd like to be able to add a new entry using my N800 and sync it right up with my desktop PC once I get home. They are personal needs and have got nothing to do with business.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Sure, you are right!

But, a nice PIM application/suite would make the device (as you can see) also interesting for companys and there are many normal users (i know much of them personally in real-life) who simply miss them.

So, in the end the argument that the device is just for consumers and for that reason it don't needs a pim app, is a way to weak for myself.
people simply expect from a device of this mini-computer-style that it can at least organize your life...

So, ask yourself... why are there so many people out there which are complaining about missing pim applications?
I think the answer is simple: they are consumers and they miss a pim! :rolleyes:

greetz,
loki

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Ok, I'm just tired of folks whining about that one TINY functionality that was never intended for the device.
Seriously folks, you got microb now, use Google apps or something.
So everyone needs to stop whining about it and actually DO something about it.
Like porting over some of the better open source PIM applications.
For all my PIM needs, my N95 works just fine and syncs contacts and calendar info seamlessly over BT to my Mac.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

sounds like a considered response :D
nice...

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Nokia has two options. Side with you and ignore those "whiners," or listen to them and work out a solution for the future versions, if not right now. Just curious, how are you using your N800?

Not everyone here is a programmer, in case you're wondering... ;)

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Reading ebooks, playing games, web browsing, occasional email use, Skype, VoIP, etc. Nothing PIM-related at all. That's what the cell phone and Mac are for.

Neither are the thousands and thousands of Nokia S60/Mac owners. It's built into OS X by default.
Nokia even provides a downloadable N95 iSync plug-in from their website.
I've found syncing the N95 to a Mac to be far easier, faster, and less complicated than doing it in Windows XP/Vista.
And it relatively easy to add new BT devices to it as well. If Nokia decides to push ahead with a PIMP solution I'm sure it will follow the same set of industry standard support their smartphone range does and will sync up with the Mac easily as well.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

I don't want to pay extra for the data service provided by my cellphone carrier. The beauty of Internet devices like the N800 is to be able to use the existing Wi-Fi to pull information on the Internet. Apparently, this sentiment is shared by a lot of others on this forum, if for different reasons.

I am not sure why OS X is relevant here. Not everyone is a Mac user. The use of Google Calendar will set you free from any particular OS - that's part of the reason I'd love to be able to sync my GPE-calendar with Google Calendar.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

It's relevant because after I said my N95 syncs perfectly with my Mac you then said not everyone here is a programmer.

And having a data plan with a cell phone provider or not concerns the PIM functions of a cell phone that syncs with OS X how?

But hey, I understand. You want Nokia to make an E800. Fine.
Perhaps that's what the next 800 "revision" will have when Sprint carries it with Wi-Max capabilities.

Now to address all the "we want real PIM" people:
Looking at the current Maemo roadmap for the N800 through the next two firmware releases, I'm not seeing any emphasis being put on PIM capabilities.
Join the developer mailing list and make that suggestion or get on the bug reports and list it as an "enhancement". Or port/create your own solution.
Posting your complaints here about a lack of PIM functionality in the N800 Internet Tablet isn't going to help get you what you want.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

My comment about not everyone being a programmer was directed at your statement about porting/creating their own applications for the N800. :)

Of course, it would be nice if my cellphone carrier (Sprint) had the N95 available. That might even make me consider signing up for the data service, provided that the N95 is Linux-based and has the same flexibility that the N800 enjoys.

Well if Sprint does have a plan to carry the next-generation Nokia smartphones, I'm by all means very interested in it.

BTW, I have voiced my opinions on the Bugzilla list regarding the lack of the PIM capability of the N800. I'd also like to work on creating my own solutions, but I just don't have the time. I know, the same old excuse but it's true. :(

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Huh? That's now how it looks...go back and re-read your post again.

They don't since it's a GSM phone and SPrint isn't a GSM carrier. Too bad for them.

Why does it have to be Linux-based? You want a Linux-based cell phone, go buy a Neo 1973 off the internet. Oh wait, Sprint doesn't carry it since it's a GSM-only phone.
There's TONS of software out there for the N95 (it's S60 3rd Edition, not Linux) and Nokia makes the SDK freely available for folks to roll their own software for it.
And I'd rather have an unlocked N95 on a month-by-month contract than a carrier-branded, locked N95 on a forced 2-year contract.
Makes it easier when one travels across the planet.

I doubt it. Sprint is usually years behind the GSM phones in cell phones.
Switch to a GSM provider if you can.

Excellent, it's been officially noted to Nokia then.
Whether or not they listen and implement is another story.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

It must be my bad, then. Well, you know my intention now.

I realize that. Unfortunately, we're locked to Sprint partly because of the special discount we get from them based upon my wife's employer.

Because I like Linux and the flexibility the Open Source model provides. Don't get me wrong - I'm not bashing Apple here. I do have a PowerBook myself. I'm just so much into the FOSS movement now, I'd love to have as much around me as possible Linux-based. But hey, it's just me...

Thanks. I sure hope they listen. :)

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

I don't get this. If a company with a known history of supporting OSS releases a free-to-download-and-use SDK for a non-Linux operating system, that somehow makes it lesser than the FOSS model?
Someone even took the S60 3rd Edition SDK and ported the latest version of ScummVM to it! Nothing like having a small cell phone that plays Monkey Island 1-2-3 and Full Throttle.
I'm not seeing Microsoft releasing their Windows Mobile SDKs for "free use".
Gotta pay through the schnozz for those. Same thing with RIM and their Crackberries.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

I didn't say anything was lesser than the FOSS model. I just like Linux and the FOSS model. That's all. When something is Linux-based, it makes it easier for me to play with it because I'm used to the Linux way. :)

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

I agree! As I've started transferring my schedule from my Treo to GPE-Calendar + Google Calendar (with Erminig), I've started to see the potential of that arrangement. Consumers sometimes need to coordinate schedules too. In particular, this arrangement will be great for planning group trips. Layout your schedule in Google Calendar so everyone can see it, then sync the calendar to your N800 and take it on your trip. Why bother with the last part? Because on your trip, you're not going to have access to the Internet 100% of the time, if at all. But your schedule is safely tucked away on N800 whenever you need it.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

There's recently been a lot of discussion in the maemo developers mailing list about repositories and how to improve the current situation, so be assured that Maemo/Nokia are listening and know the current situation isn't perfect... expect improvements in the future. :)

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Ah yes, the "maemo-testing" respository idea....good one.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Couldn't seriously get worse, anyway :-)

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

How about employing one competent debian-packager to clean up remaining package issues and upload these third party hacker ports to the extras repo.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Although I agree in principle with the point about being in the multimedia range of devices from Nokia, looking at www.nseries.com it's fair to say that the N800 is the single only device in the N Series range which does not have PIM and sync functionality built into the device.

As I say, I understand why it does not (PIM and sync are not key to multimedia devices), but it does stand out in the range for not having it...

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

The man has a point.

So did iBall, too... it all comes down how you look at it. I look at it like this: :rolleyes:

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Since when is a need for a PIM specifically a business one? We all use calendars etc. and many of us want to use our N800 for this. It being an internet tablet, then I am happy to adopt Google’s PIM applications.

However until such time as wi-fi access is universal we should be able to store this synched information on the device itself. Personally that is all I am asking for, a PIM suite that is synched with Google for those times when I find myself offline.

This seems to me to come fully within the parameters of the Internet Tablet brief.

What beats me is why Nokia haven’t yet provided this facility. Maybe because they themselves are still working out what exactly is the scope of an internet tablet and I suspect that much this expanding envelope is taking them by surprise.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

For Calendar: http://www.google.com/calendar/m
For Email/Contacts: http://mail.google.com/mail/h/

Sure you have to be "connected", but it works when you are.

It would be great to have these services sync for offline use. Maybe we should call up the Google peeps to see what they can do about our little dilemma. I think the solutions are there, they're just not the ones most users are accustom to.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Maybe we have to wait for Google Gears to be final and just limp along in the meantime.

Re: Why I won't buy n800's for my employees
 

Now if only Google would give us a Contacts API, then we could sync that to our N800's as well...

Ton.