Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

As suggested here by stskeeps, this is a thread dedicated towards discussing & contributing to these two docs:
Sailfish(Jolla): Questions & Ideas (needs some reorganising, perhaps some of it can be moved to the new doc?)
Sailfish(Jolla): Concerns/Criticisms (a blank slate that's awaiting your input!)

As we get answers to our Qns & concerns/criticisms, they'll be moved from those docs & placed here.
Hopefully the vast majority of what's still unclear will be revealed at Slush...
But if it's not, at least we'll have a clear structure about what we do/don't know, & what concerns/irritates us.
Ideally we'll get some of it answered before then by bundling the content from the Google docs into a pdf & sending that to Jolla.
I won't have time to help with much of this, so I was hoping one or more users would be willing to step-up & coordinate most of it?
About 1wk from now I'll lock those documents (upon request) to all but a select few.
But in the meantime, it's fine for anyone to add their content to both docs...
Ideas about what to put in them or how they should be organised can be discussed here.

A forewarning, this thread is strictly about discussing the content of the aforementioned documents & or the wiki.
Users who repeatedly derail it with useless or non-constructive criticism, be prepared to have your posts deleted & or be banned.
I encourage active participants to regularly and enthusiastically report such individuals.
If you want to go way off tangent, we already have a thread that's served that purpose very well so far.
Any further ideas & or thoughts about how to proceed are greatly welcomed!
Mods if you feel this thread's best suited for General (higher views on avg. anyway) feel free to move it, I just figured this sub-forum was more apt.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I got Qs/Concerns

* Offline Navigation?
* LPS support?
* FM transmitter?
* Camera shutter door?
* Hdmi out via micro hdmi?
* Open source stock app?

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Great, please add them to the relevant documents (if they're not already there), thank-you.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Maybe this is off-topic?
Is maemo (soon to be Hildon Foundation) and the group of websites it supports, the home of Jolla and/or the community for its devices?

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Nokia maps? :o

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

- GTK compatability?
- An open source friendly GPU such as Mali 400?
- Hardware keyboard?
- Usb host mode?

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Nokia Drive?

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

* Enterprise support
- VPN - Cisco/Nortel - SSL and IPSec
- MS Exchange and Lotus Notes support
- RDP Client support

* Shell access
* Developer Access
* Perl support
* Python support
* OpenOffice / LibreOffice

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Guys/gals, please refer the the existing list of questions before adding new ones. Avoid duplicates and obvious topics (for example, Python is available in Mer, and thus will be available in Sailfish which is derived from it). It's better to focus on real unknowns.

This thread is for suggestions about communicating these questions to Jolla and discussions around those questions. Add questions to the list yourself if you need to.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

That document is not very microB friendly.

Did I ask a stupid question? I just wanted to know what the relationship between the Sailfish and Maemo/Hildon communities communities would be. If one were to be blunt: is TMO the correct place to discuss an OS that may have little connect with Maemo or Hildon. But, I'm not being that forthright (wink).

In terms of this thread, are requests being sort for hardware or just OS features? I guess Jolla cannot do loads about the h/w but can incorporate/implement features in the OS?

Ideas of things to include in the OS/infrastructure:
- a bug reporting tool (programme that's part of the OS) that's so user-friendly that even the most computer illiterate individual can post a useful report.
- a bug reporting mechanism that makes the user/reporter feel empowered, because it provides consistent feedback and liaison between the maintainer and reported, WRT the reported bug, and aims to actually fix things - a non-avoidance policy would be good too (a lot of Fremantle bugs seemed to be "wontfix, addressed in Harmattan" before the CSSU team took over).
- ditto for testing tools, so anyone using the pre-release repositories is able to / obliged to / assisted in running a selection of automated and manual tests.

In addition to suggestions made by others, above, OS feature requests:
to make a question, just put "will Sailfish have" in front of the following:
- Good support for external KBs (via BT or USB).
- Handwriting recognition (e.g. as smooth as Note II), plus integration with something similar to Xournal.
- Voice recognition (voice to text, not just retrieving answers to stock questions "what's the weather like?" etc.).
- Screenshot maker.
- Answerphone with media player type control.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

No but it's wiki n00b friendly & good for just scratching notes together, the wiki can be the final resting place for much of it, once we know much more.
And not too many users use ONLY their phone, there's always some other device(s) in the mix.

The Council/BoD's hinted of some likely collaboration plenty of times, in fact talks begun ages ago, it's a natural evolution to leverage the Maemo & MeeGo-Harmattan communities, especially once Nokia's completely dumped us.

You can raise whatever you want, any ideas/concerns/Qns are valid so long as they haven't already been raised, place your input into the relevant docs please, even organise them if you see anything out-of-place & have time.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

So about 5wk after Jolla 1st said they'd look at whether they can answer some of the stuff in the original doc...
I nudged them again to find out what the hold-up was, this was their response about 3-days ago:
So is there any person or persons who is willing to help here?
All it would require is organising both docs, culling duplicate/redundant commentary, keeping it as digestible as possible for Sailfish/Jolla reps.
Folks can discus here the content of either, how they should be structured/formatted, or what's missing, until they're closed in roughly 2-days.
At that point both of them will be locked, and hopefully almost fully organised/formatted...
Then we'll email the links to both using the address Jolla's provided, or both can be PDF'd 1st, up to whoever is doing the organising.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Whenever you close the doc, I can make a PDF from it, and send it to Jolla if you wish. How do I negotiate with them the feedback channel? If you need help with editing / removing redundancies / simplifying, etc. I can go over it.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I do not know if this is on list of questions, but can you add question if there will be free devices for developers (like N950 in summer 2011)?

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I added that question.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Good point - a proper developer device program is IMHO very important. Double so for a new platform.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Thanks for that... Others are welcome to help/contribute too....
Lets aim to have them locked by 18/11 18:30 AustEST, that's exactly 1-week from when this thread was started. (correction: this should've said 15/11 18:30 AustEST)
We can extend by a day, but much longer than that & we're getting too close to Slush IMO.
Ideally we'd have it all nicely formatted/organised by then (or nearly), so that we can email the links or PDF(s).
Basically I was told we can communicate with them via that email address I mentioned...
Both docs can be unlocked later for new discussion, after anything answered by Jolla/Sailfish is moved to the Wiki.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I mean what should I ask them about communicating the answers back? I.e. do we expect them to comment during the Slush, or we want a written answer and etc.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Idea all along has been to estb. a direct dialogue on an ongoing basis, or at least back/forth once, in the form of a written response (whichever written form suits them).
If they can only answer at Slush that's fine I guess, but not ideal IMO.... Night.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Isn't the 18th to be a little late? Considering that the are giving their big reveal only 3days after, their press office are going to be very busy that week and by the time they pick up the questionnaire they would have answered half of the questions in the announcement.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I don't mind closing the list as soon as possible. There really was more than enough time to add questions.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

other question: in future will have jolla os open development? (like maemo5 on gitorious) or will be development closed behind the door? (like android)

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I think it's a mixed question. Jolla combines open core (Mer) with their closed components (UI at least, and let's hope as little applications as possible). They already assured that they are going to be involved in Mer's open development, and they see it as a benefit for everyone. Their closed part I guess will remain closed (as in source and is in development). Unless they'll open things up later. So you better rephrase the question to target it more specifically.

Something like: are you planning to open up your closed components at some later point (as in open source and open development)?

But I doubt they can answer it now.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

There certainly has been, it would be nice if we had the chance to get even just a tiny iota of exclusive info before the slush announcement.

I do remember adding 3 of my own questions to the list (device influence, web browser capability and 1 other). Only 1 remains now after the multiple edits. It still would be nice to have an answer, but I guess others will need to agree before the doc is closed?

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I trimmed and merged various duplicates in the questions list and broke it into more sections. Please review it and add whatever else is needed.

I don't think we need a separate list with concerns to be mailed to Jolla, since it's too premature. Questions list would be enough (we can maintain that concerns list for the future of course).

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

My main concern with any Nokia and its Derivatives: will it be supported? Nokia has this disease of ditching.
N900 was ditched within few months. N9 was born almost doomed.

Not just that, Nokia Lumia 900 is also already dead. (Not that i care for Lumia's)

Jolla having roots with Nokia, should break away from this malaise and make a commitment to support the device/OS they release.

Take for example: Galaxy Nexus or Iphone 3gs or the Blackberry's. These are more or less still supported; updates released.

The idea is to focus. Release a great hardware and good software and then focus on improving software, each iteration. (although this didn't work with Playbook so far). And Please Release hardware that is not outdated even before the release.

Apologies for my rant. But i love both my N900 and N9. The way one loves a challenged kid.

Looking forward eagerly to what is in store!!! Jolla..come hit me with your best!!

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Support term question is already in the list.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

*UPDATE*
My prior post was wrong, the date should've been 15/11 630pm AustEST....
Yes even the 15th is, they were going to get back to us with some answers many wks ago, I forgot to chase them up, nor should I have to, it appears to have fallen totally off their radar. :mad:
I think there's quite a few intelligent qn/ideas/concerns etc. still missing, which is why I think it's a good idea to get some input from the community's most clued-up users for at least a few more days.
Even if the 15th isn't enough time for them to absorb & get back to us before Slush, at least Slush will probably cover a large chunk of what's been raised...
And anything that isn't, well hopefully they can address all or some of that in the proceeding days/weeks....
I guess we could forget extensions & make 15/11 630pm AustEST the absolute deadline for final draughts to be sent, or possibly allow for just 1 more day i.e. 16/11 630pm AustEST?

Please put this sort of stuff in the relevant doc(s) (see OP), it may have already been raised, so make sure it isn't already there, TY.

Thanks for that! I think you might be right on the concerns/criticisms doc, that could be left for the days/wks after Slush.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Why not just send it to them after the 21st? Let Slush finish, edit away questions that are answered and then get some critical questions in...

Quality vs Quantity is always better...We don't want them to reply oh see Slush for this and that hence leaving critical questions unanswered...

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Yeah that's a good point, it would've been good to get at least some answers before the event, but we may have left our run too late.
I'm of two minds on that really, interested to hear what others think....

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Honestly we accuse Dave of being impatient and we can't wait a few days to see Slush for ourselves? If our deadline is 16/11 wouldn't it seem Dave-esque behaviour :D

Let's get "tough" questions for them instead post-Slush; that would show our propensity to be just not mere questioner's but critical ones to boot...They answer to our expectations its good; they don't they just serve to spread pessimism among a very important Community...

Put your subject on the ropes; remember; it'll get you the most honest answers ;)

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I'm concerned that they are too busy now, and won't have enough peace of mind to concentrate on hard questions. Plus, part of those in the list will for sure be answered on the event. I'm kind of leaning towards waiting to see what they say, trim out questions which will be clarified after the event, and then send the list when Jolla folks will be more relaxed.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

If we can agree to keep questions post-Slush can we also agree to be quick; maybe jalyst can announce here post-Slush for last entries...Within 3 days after Slush we send out a PDF Document for them to answer...

We make it clear this document is from the whole Community-at-large so they don't give us piecemeal answers and since they receive it 3 days after Slush they can't tell us to wait till their unveiling in December...

I'm afraid more discussions after Slush would mean a similar scenario like now whereby our questions would be sent pretty close to their unveiling event in December...


Preferably jalyst, you email it to them with a link to your TMO account ;) They would then see its from someone who is a long-time respected member so the weight attached to it would be substantial...

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Yep, if we move it post Slush, we should fix the date already now, to avoid any further delays. We can give them a few days, and send it out on Nov 25 sharp let's say.

Jolla knows about the community list (it's not news to them). I also suspect that they reviewed it a few times already. But they prefer an official channel to answer it, especially since it wasn't finalized yet.

We can CC Stskeeps just to be sure that it won't slip through the cracks.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

To me it seemed like they took it as a trollish list that they would rather not answer...

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

No, they commented on the IRC that questions are hard, and most couldn't be answered too early (I guess before the event). So they do take it seriously, just couldn't answer it yet or didn't want to give a small partial answer I guess.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Okay unless others disagree (please offer a solid rationale, & please do so by no later than the 16th AustEST) lets aim to get a final draught to them by the 25/11 AustEST.
I hope some folks are still happy to manage the docs during that time, & remember everyone can add their content there until we lock them*, lets say by the 23/11?
This thread will remain active the whole time for discussing the content (or lack thereof) in the docs, & how best to organise/format, & formally present them.
Good points about keeping stskeeps in-the-loop & making it clear that it's coming from a person(s) well-known in the community, I did reference this thread when I nudged them a few days ago, so hopefully they at least read the 1st post.

*please be careful not to duplicate what others have already raised there.

#Face-palm#

I just realised this thread was started on the 8th not the 11th, so really the 15th should've been the deadline, with a possible extension by a day or two.
Still probably leaving it all a bit too late though I guess... Updated my earlier posts....

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

On a side note, do you really want to post any potential answers to Maemo.org wiki, or in the light of latest concerns about various Wiki disappearances, and Maemo.org being "on the ropes", may be we can ask Mer folks to let us use some Mer wiki page for that? I'd prefer the later if it's acceptable.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Maemo wiki is now in read only mode due fail in upgrade. Meego wiki is now up.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Anyway, I'd rather not rely on something that might evaporate tomorrow.