Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

To run parallel to this thread, how would the perfect QWERTY OtherHalf keyboard look like? What materials, colors, shapes and sizes are the best?

3 rows? 4 rows? Numpad? Arrow-keys like the N810? Slide-out? Swing out? Magnets?

This thread is all about design and brainstorming, let's get some ideas together and iron out the details later!

Selection of the ugliest keyboards in the world:

Leather maybe? *UGLY*
http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20090225/...hr_610x559.jpg
Blue? *UGLY*
http://static.thefullsignal.com/site...ages/97351.png
'Ergonomic'? *UGLY*
http://www.wirelessmoment.com/images...phone_open.jpg

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

As Dave says. Clam shell preferable to slide or swing out.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

The E7 keyboard will do!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

The "ergonomic" Motorola keyboard really has nothing to do with decent ergonomics. Look at your hands. When holding a Qwerty phone between your palm bottoms, your thumbs do not move in the direction of the curved key rows of the Motorola keyboard. So it looks that it was designed by an arts designer and no expert of ergonomics. Besides, it and the blue keyboard are examples of English-only keyboards which are more or less impossible to localize to other languages - there are too few keys.
For some tablets are available virtual split keyboard where the key rows are matched with the natural thumb movements: on circular arches, the centers of which are near the corners of the tablet screen. But those keyboard substitutes cannot be called ergonomic, because of other reasons, such as the fact that its keys are only virtual keys on a touch screen.
But does the 4 or 5-way rocky key in the center of the Motorola keyboard make its ergonomics acceptable? Hardly. I've found it a lot more natural and easier to use four arrow keys than streching my thumbs a quite long way to the center of the keyboard. Besides the use of 4 arrows keys is a more standard way: they can be used like on full-size keyboards.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

These were the ugliest keyboards I could find in 5 min, but they get the conversation started :D

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

http://i.imgur.com/jMYGijl.jpg
This keyboard layout looks acceptable: there are enough keys for the localizing of most languages. For example, the Ü Ö Ä of the German language and the Å Ö Ä of the Swedish and some other languages can be put to their standard keys: on the right-thumb side of the P and L keys.

The layout could be improved a bit by adding a 2nd shift key. Perhaps a single key is enough for Fn and Sym as well as Ctrl, which would replace the "Command" keys of Apple computers in the picture. And is the CapsLock really needed? On full-size keyboards it causes constant trouble, because it is too near the Shift key, and therefore is hit too easily by accident. I'd prefer seeing the Tab key instead of the CapsLock key. If the CapsLock function is done on virtual keyboards with double-tapping on the Shift key, it may be easier to apply the same functionality also on the HW Qwerty. With these omissions, for a compromise layout, it may be possibles to reduce the number of key columns from 13 to 12. But please remember that the Ctrl key is a must!

Although the above picture may not represent any real keyboard, you dirkvl could consider adding its picture to the root message, with this title: Full

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

This is what I regard as ideal Qwert* keyboards:
- Slides out from the longer edge of Jolla (the phone is carried on rails above the keyboard), like on Nokia N810 and N900
- Keyboard width is determined by the width of the Jolla phone (in landscape orientation)
- Keys have a spherical shape, sufficiently outbowing: a bit more outbowing than on Nokia E7. Acceptable shapes of keys are found on Nokia N900 and E70.
- Key labels in 2 or 3 colors, background-illuminated
- At least one Shift, Ctrl, Fn and Sym key, perhaps also the Tab key
- Four arrow keys are a must. In language-localized variants their number must not be less than 4 (unfortunately on many localized N900 keyboards the ArrowUp is made with Sym+ArrowLeft and ArrowDown is made with Sym+ArrowRight, which is too impractical). Besides, the removal of the ArrowUp and ArrowDown keys ruin the use of keyboard shortcuts.
- When you slide the HW Qwerty in, you can continue using the virtual keyboard on touch screen, using practically the same key sequencies. To achieve this, there could be sticky Shift and Ctrl keys on the virtual keyboard. For easy text selection and cursor movements, 4 arrow keys are useful also on virtual keyboards. For example, if you have tapped on an arrow key after the Shift key, the Shift will remain sticky until you tap again on the Shift key, or make an operation which cancels the text-selection. Perhaps the arrow keys of the virtual keyboard can be omitted if the selection of text can be done easily, like with the Opera Mobile browser (but please do not mimic the miserable virtual keyboard of Opera!). I must admit, however, that beginners may regard the Editing Layer of the Swype keyboard as more user friendly than the shortcuts with sticky modifier keys - but keyboard shortcuts are quicker to use.
- To allow easy keyboard shortcuts like Ctrl + Shift + ArrowRight on HW Qwerty, please examine whether one or more of the Ctrl, Shift and Sym keys can be made to work as a sticky key (for keyboard shortcuts, the Sym key would have the same functionality as the Alt key on full-size Qwerty keyboards)
- To save space for other keys, spacebar should not be made wider than the sum of 2 or 3 adjacent keys.
- No excessively large keys. Yes, you can hit the Shift, Backspace and Enter keys with no problems even though they are not bigger than letter keys, if their shape is outbowing enough.
- Keys arranged like on chessboard. Although by tilting the key columns you can make the keyboard look more like a full-size keyboard, such a trick does not help: its use with two thumbs will remain totally different from how you enter text on a full-size Qwerty keyboard.
- Put Y-H-N (etc) keys in the same vertical key columns. It will help enormously those who are accustomed to 10-finger touch-typing on full-sized keyboards - they will know subconsciously where each key is located if columns are arranged correctly, even though naturally you cannot "10-finger touch-type" on two-thumb keyboards. This naturally applies to other key columns (T-G-B, U-J-M etc).
- The number of key rows depends on how much the keyboard slides from below the phone. I regard 4 rows as minimum. The Z X C V B N M keys should not be on the lowermost row of keys - it is best to use it for modifier keys like Shift, Fn, Sym etc. If there is not enough space for 5 rows, then numbers are entered as the combinations of the Fn and the topmost keys.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Egon basically had all the good ideas, so only thing I have to add is a good/bad(?) example of how not to do possible production of the keyboard...

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...rce-controller
I expected it to be late of the original estimate, but this is bit ridiculous. Even though these are the people that are the creators of the Pandora console. Let's see if I get mine before my Jolla...

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

e7/n950 keyboard all the way!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Okay, but can the n950's keyboard be improved? I would personally love to have a keyboard with brushed aluminium keys like the asus zenbooks!

Or... The Lauta... What could have been! To hell with metal and black keyboards!
http://mynokiablog.com/wp-content/up...9/rm-742-6.jpg

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

First off, I'll take a keyboard where they key mapping is done with xkb over a keyboard where it's not, almost universally. That, more so than any particular key availability or layout, matters to me. Because of the beautiful simplicity that if you have that, you can set what keys you do have to be much more suitable for you.

Want a tab key? Easy, find some unused key combination (or one used for something you don't care for), and use it. For me, that's Fn+Enter on the N900.

Even on the N900 with its 3-row, rather limited keyboard, I have just about any key I want, the limitation being more about how many key layouts I can memorize and comfortably use. I have Fn+Shift (in that order. Shift+Fn is just another key level in one layout) mapped to cycle through my key mappings. I have the latin/english characters and all the commonly used specials in that layout, cyrillic/russian characters and many other special characters on a second one, and have been in the process of putting together a third layout for all the special characters that typically come up in mathematics or science. I can certainly type more things in at will than is available (near as I can tell, if the only keys available are the ones printed on the buttons) on the N950 keyboard's default key mapping.

Secondly, if the above is satisfied I'm perfectly okay with 3-row keyboards. 4-row and 5 row would also be acceptable to me, thought I would conjecture this would make touch-thumb-typing harder, and 5 seems like pushing it, but if overall it's comfortable to use, great. Bigger keyboards typically mean they start to expand, which means you need bigger and bigger hands to comfortably reach all the keys with your thumbs. This has more to do with the size of the device than the key placement, though. The black-berry Z10, for example, from my fiddling with one, is sometimes noticeably uncomfortable for me because it's size means I actually end up having to 'reach' with my thumbs. I can tolerate it because it doesn't come up often, but I would absolutely hate being thus inconvenienced with a keyboard. (Admittedly, usually on a keyboard you don't have to reach across more than half the span thereof with a given thumb, though depending on exactly what key combinations you've mapped to what, and whether the modifier keys like shift and Fn 'latch' or need to be held to have their effects. On the N900 for example, shift and fn latch, but some programs, like emacs, seem to disregard this latching and then you have to held them pressed down to get the desired characters).

So the point is, I really don't have two much of an ideal layout. It should have arrow keys, and ideally the full set of modifier keys (Ctrl, Shift, Fn, Alt, Meta), although the minimal N900 set (Ctrl, Shift, Fn) has worked well enough for me most of the time. Give me xkb on the software end, and I can take it from there, thanks.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I'm not familiar with the 'xkb in the software end', but what you tell above souds good. Especially if you need to write with a character set of a 2nd or 3rd language, or use a lot of special symbols, it is nice to have a special new layer of your "own" characters. Like you say, memorizing them is a challenge. That's why layout designers and localizers want to stick to some standard conventions, and leave the personal customizing to be done by the user's own wish and responsibility.

Yes, there are many factors which affect the writing ergonomics. And they really need to be tested thoroughly. A "Sliding Qwerty Keyboard Half" will certainly be even more challenging than the existing sliding Qwerty phones, because the "display part" (= the phone) will be a lot heavier than the display part of N900, for example. Text entry is affected a lot by the balance (where is the weight center of the phone + OH combination). which depends on whether there is a battery in the Qwerty, and where exactly. The optimal place for the battery could be below the keymat, but such a place can make the Qwerty OH quite thick. In any case, many tests need to be done. Perhaps also the place of the keymat need to be tested; what is the optimal distance between the leftmost and rightmost keys from the left and right ends of the keyboard.

Below you can see the Qwerty of N950. Like on most HW Qwerties of Nokia it uses three modifier keys which affect characters: Shift, Sym and Fn (on this keyboard using the "north-east arrow" label).
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php...1&d=1379155831

With the Sym key can be entered a wide variety of characters that are used by most European languages. Its operation is different from the corresponding "press and hold a key" function of virtual touch-screen keyboards. But their purpose and character sets are quite similar. On HW Qwerties "multitapping with a key while holding the Sym key despressed" is more complex to use than the corresponding "tap and hold a key and slide onto the wanted variant letter" function of virtual keyboards. But in the case of most European languages, the most frequently used variant letter is there as the default letter on virtual keyboards, and as the "1st letter variant" on HW keyboard, which you get by pressing the Sym and letter key at the same time (or the Sym key a bit earlier). These operations are complicated to explain in writing, but once you've learned to use them, you will not long for any "special character tables", which are still found on some phones. The Fn key is needed for punctuation marks, paretheses, etc symbols which are printed on the keys. For these reasons I recommend keeping both the Fn and Sym keys on the keyboard. The Sym key is essential also for keyboard shortcuts: on smartphones the Sym key could be used like the Alt key of full-size Qwerty keyboards in some keyboard shortcuts, such as Sym+Enter (= Alt+Enter). For the planning of keyboard shortcuts, the standard full-size keyboard is the best reference. Because the simultaneous pressing on three or more keys is too difficult, keyboard shortcuts should be used moderately, or they should be made with "sticky" modifier keys. so that you can make the keyboard shortcut "in series".

The Ctrl key is a must, which often saves us in some difficult situations. For instance, selected text can be cut/copied/pasted with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V, respectively - on web pages there often is no other way to make those operations. On touchscreen you may see corresponding function buttons, but when writing text on a HW keyboard it is usually a lot more practical to use the Ctrl-shortcuts than the Cut / Copy / Paste labels on the touchscreen. Keyboard shortcuts made with arrow keys are very powerful. Because there are no keys like Home, End, PgUp, PgDown, some 3-key shortcuts may be needed.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I have a zenbook. The keys are plastic, not aluminium.The stuff below the keys looks aluminium though.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Ever used n950? As I find it's keyboard inferior to n900 keyboard - space between buttons is too big, shift key is on some strange position, etc. Not to mention the weird way to open it (but I guess this is OT)

EDIT:
not shift but ctrl key

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

As I say, clam shell preferable! :)

Can't see how this is OT given the thread title.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Well I have never seen N950 but from the pictures I assume the device opens the same way E7 does.

I had E7 in the past, and while the keyboard is pretty decent to use the problem is exactly opening the device.
You absolutely cannot open it single-handed, and it takes care and force to open it with two hands. The device is so slippery it's easy to drop it when trying to open the keyboard.

I had a clamshell-type-faux-leather device protective cover with my E7, and using that it was easier to open it because you could get some friction between your hands and the device, but without it, --> very difficult.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Yup, it's basically the same kind of mechanism, t'was one of it's biggest criticisms back in the day.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I prefer the straight-sliding keyboards of N810 and N900 for several reasons. One reason: it provides exciting possibilities to replace separate keyboard and camera-grip OHs. Or, the holes of a Sliding Qwerty Half can be used as a lens hood and a lens cover for the camera of Jolla phone. Please see what I wrote to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...27#post1379527

The exact places of the Ctrl and Shift keys seem to vary on N950, depending on localized languages and perhaps also HW versions. To me the keyboard of N950 does not look too bad in picture http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php...1&d=1379155831
except that its tilting screen mechanism is worse than the straight and less complex construction of N810 and N900. I believe that the Ctrl key was moved to the right-thumb edge to make it easier to make the most common shortcuts of Ctrl+A, Z, X, C, V, B.

Regading your comment "space between buttons is too big", my comment is: what matters most is the shape of the keys, not their exact dimensions. The reason why I don't regard the keys of N950 as ideal is the flatness of the keys. Actually, it is the distance of the tops (centers) of the keys that matters, if their shape is spherical enough.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

How about making all keys in a sheet of molded clear transparent plastic, along with a cheap resistive-touch e-paper screen placed underneath the keys, and some led-lighting around it.

That would give a physical keyboard with fully configurable key labels.

The only permanent decision will be the dimensions of the matrix of physical keys, i.e. 3, 4 or 5 rows times 11, 12, 13 or 14 keys, possibly with an extra large key on the bottom row to potentially use for space. If you want cursor keys, sym, ctrl, tab, Fn, esc, alt or any other modifiers will be a user decision depending on the keyboard layout you download, install and display on your keys.

I for one will have a layout that includes pipe, ampersand and all sorts of braces easily accessible :-)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

In Internet is found a page where is introduced a transparent, flexible, molded plate which can be put on the screen of a tablet. Just now I can't find it, but you can google or duckduckgo :) for it. They claim that it is patented :(

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Patents are tricky, they are often not what you think, so it might be quite easy to work around it. And of course, they might be agreeable to license for a reasonable fee even if it can't be worked around. Furthermore, if this specific idea hasn't been patented before, it is now unpatentable, since I have now publicly published it :-)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

As a means to save screen real estate, fine, but typing on such a flat plastic featureless surface feels as stupid as typing to touchscreen. (and propably even worse since you would not have haptics...)

I would like a real keyboard with real moving keys inder my fingers.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Oh, that isn't what I meant. The clear molded plastic sheet is molded because it has the shape of a keyboard with keys. The keys will move and spring up as usual, in fact many standard keyboards and keypads are made like this (but with black plastic and painted symbols).

It might need to be made of two different materials, one rubber sheet between the keys to make the keys spring back well and one clear plastic to allow you to see the screen through the keys, but it might even be possible to make in a single material that is not only transparent but also sufficiently springy when thin and sufficiently hard when thick; I don't know enough about the material options available, but I have gotten the impression that there are very many to choose from.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Yes, the page which I saw describes exactly the same shape as you stefanmohl describe. The shape tries to make the moulded or pressed keys "click" somehow; there are the same kind of almost 90-degree edges, like those of real keys. But as I've not had the opportunity to use it, I have some doubts about its tactical "touch and feel". Now that page is hard to find. Maybe they come across patent disputes or the product is not yet mature enough.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Guys, please do not forget the problem with the camera!
How do you want in the open or closed state to make photo?
Even in the open or pushed-out state needs the rail or the mechanics something space. And I think that will also cover the camera. Install a second camera with LED light on the keyboard is too costly and will take away even more space. And who knows if the photos are forwarded to the memory card fast enough via I2C.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

You guys talking about tactus?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I guess that your comment would belong better to the "Other Half Feasibility" thread of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91562
After reading the list of suggested OHs in the "Other Half Feasibility" thread I cannot figure out what you mean with the "second camera with LED light on the keyboard".

After writing the above text I now see that you intented to post your comment to my http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...27#post1379527
In the suggested combination there would be no extra electronics in the "Qwerty part" of the integrated device (perhaps the LEDs being the only exception). It's all about mechanics and design, also if the same concept were applied to a Sliding Keyboard Half. Please also note that it is an independent topic which has not much to do with the list of the suggested OHs of the "Other Half Feasibility" thread.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Ok I'll try to explain it another time. Look on the first page of this thread. since you have uploaded an image with a keyboard. Now you have to think that you close the keyboard now. What it covers in this moment? CORRECT the camera! Do you want every time open the keyboard to use the camera?

How can we solve this problem in order to take a photo when closed now? CORRECT: to brew a second camera with an LED ... but that's Bullsh**. Therefore, one should construct it so that you can take a photo in the closed state.

Do you understand what I mean me now?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I believe that dirkvl added the "Leather maybe?" picture only as an example of a keyboard which seems to be put in a kind of leather bag. And to display its Qwerty layout. I think we here don't need to think too much about the functionality of the phonein the leather bag (the 1st picture). Besides, to me it looks that if the keyboard half turns 180 degrees on its "leather hinge" onto the phone, it covers only the small "back camera" (that for Skype etc). Of course if you turn the keyboard so that it goes behind the phone, it would become an obstacle for the main camera. But that hardly is the intention.

In this context it is better forget the way the Sliding Keyboard Half works, on its rail which slide the phone in front of the keyboard. I believe that dirkvl intented this thread maybe for the Qwerty layout and material issues. Although you are right about the keyboard if it slides on rails below the phone, please do not worry about the "keymat layout sample" picture.

Besides, a solution has already been found: the hidden part of the sliding keyboard (like those of N810 and N900) can be equipped with one or two holes thru which the cameras "sees" the object. Via the latter link of my previous reply you can read more about it.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Exactly, discussions about camera funtionality does not belong here. All the other OtherHalf topic are way to crowded to have a sensible discussion. There is already a thread about keyboard+camera+extra funtionality here.

Oh yeah, the pictures in the first topic were the ugliest keyboards I could find in 5min, but they centainly get the conversation going!


Are there any people with experience with the Surface Touchcover? They look very appealing! Same as the Lauta, I would like to see a colourful keypad for a change!
http://photos.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/wp-c...ouch-Cover.jpg

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I don't get how it doesn't belong here...
Surely a good design doesn't impede ph functionality?
The "hole fix" doesn't seem to make much sense, yet.

Not yet, I should have one in the coming months. :)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

i ment the form factore... slide out with angle...

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

We were not talking about Tactus, but about an extra transparent plate of soft plastic, with rectangular shapes on it. User needs to put the keyboard plate on touchscreen. But the Tactus keyboard looks more versatile, because the tactile keyboard seems to be a transparent membrane, under which goes a liquid which raises the keyboard domes. At least the shape of the keys is correct: spherical and elevated enough. Please ssee the videos of http://www.tactustechnology.com/technology.html and http://techcrunch.com/2013/05/06/tac...ring-keyboard/ . If the Tactus techology becomes available as acceptable keyboards, then we may need to say goodbye to conventional HW keyboards. Or the other half might consist of an extra touch screen, with the Tactus keyboard on its surface.

Also a company called Senseg seems to bring a new technology which makes you feel something on the screen. But on their page they tell more about feeling textures rather than keyboards. http://senseg.com/ . According to some news, Nokia and Apple have been customers of Senseg, which has its HQ in Espoo, Finland.

This is the news about Nokia and its texture-feeling touch screen: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.UlcnJFO2Xb0 They tested it on N900 :p Apple seems to have applied for a patent about something related: http://readtechnews.com/apples-lates...rtip-feedback/

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Tactus looks interesting....

That Senseg & Nokia stuff has been news/info for years, nothing concrete has ever come from it.
I'd trust Apple more to finally deliver something...

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Should there be a separate thread about constructing a keyboard that doesn't require mass production?

It's easy and cheap to get a PCB from Itead, a 3D printed casing from Shapeways but how about the actual physical buttons?

Or is the best way to buy a replacement keyboard for some known qwerty phone and build the PCB for that?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Crazy concept idea: transparent keyboard?

http://natebu.files.wordpress.com/20...latine_web.jpg

When any mechanical stuff is well designed, why not show it?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Or a variation on this one :)

Transparent looks nice. Probably not very durable though.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Yes, the Senseg/Nokia texture-feeling feature hardly is as good as the Tactus way of feeling where the key tops are. Tactus calls it "orientation". But how do they make a Tactus key click? A good haptic feedback may be needed, à la N9. Now would be needed real keyboards instead of videos. According to the web pages of Tactus, something will be available "in 2013".

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

There is some speculation on JollaUsers that Jolla will develop a qwerty otherhalf. Perhaps this makes this discussion useless, perhaps they are following us closely.

I hope the latter!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

In that article he claims the tweets prove that they almost certainly have plans for a qwerty OH.
But none of the tweets do that, all they do is suggest that they have their own branded OH's planned.*
He often does that in his writing style, makes "great leaps" etc...

*granted a qwerty OH is probably the most likely OH for them to release if they've been listening