[SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

My thoughts are not yours and I and I do not like anti-features.

It is me, myself and I not you, yourself and you and if you decide to kill me than please kill me softly.

We are the world, we are the sailing children. Please swapon.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

i havent experienced it yet. but am sure one day itll happen and ill be disappointed.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Been very busy, just using the device as phone, not too heavy as I don't have interesting enough soft on Jolla to demand heavy.multitasking in my ussage pattern but I was already wondering: where did those open windows go.

I did not close them!


If I d want to have an over zealous house maid I d move to Android.

At this point I'd expect a slider for OOM operation behaviour.

Sure stuff is fluent but so is my N900 with more work at hands.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

I wonder if Maemo core be the best for multitasking? Hmm.. N900 and N9 has very good multitasking, Jolla.. Ok, but not that good. Other than that, Jolla is the best now :). I still have them all ;)

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

I think the problem with this killer is that it starts killing even if swap is still free. So just a configuration that needs to be changed. Still searching for that config though as I am not sure if its a jolla made killer or the global inbuilt linux kernel oom killer.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

The problem?
OOM has been optimized in update 10.. it's surprising Jolla considers this the fruit of months of hard labour.

It would be great if the config could be tweaked but if it is really so hard to balance it I 'd expect Jolla to share the previous config and the new 'Android one'

Did not test the opt in update, but I suppose it worked still like the old Sailfish release for what concerns OOM?

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Yes, but in case memory was full, there could be some pretty heavy lags. I'm not sure what I'd rather read complaints about on TJC: lag when doing anything, or closing applications automatically. Hopefully this behaviour can be edited somewhere to allow for a bit more time before applications close themselves.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

With this additional swap i don't have any issues since 24 hours. I will probably add a line to fstab.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Digged around a little bit and found the config to tweak the OOMKiller behavior.
At least for my workflow it now allows opening up more apps than before before OOMKiller kicks in and kills some.

Made a thread on together jolla open for discussion: https://together.jolla.com/question/...t_ratio-value/

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Thanks for this!

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

This won't help you because /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory is
set to 1. And kernel docs say that value of /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_ratio is ignored if /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory is != 2.

But you can increase swappiness.
"echo 99 > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness"

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Very sad to hear this .The last modern OS to have true multitasking is also now going the android way.True multitasking was one of the few differentiars for jolla. Many people avoid android and ios only for this particular reason - unreliable app behaviour .People like me care more for real multitasking even more than openness.Why cant it simple give out a warning instead of killing apps..

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Have you used the zramcfg in previous versions? I found it still affects Vaarainjärvi if its installed(checked with swapon -s) and after removing it I've had 0 task killing problems even with a lot of applications open. Just a thought. :)

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Exactly my thought. If they feel like it is the system's responsibility to provide smooth app experience (which I am not sure about - I think it is my responsibility to run as many apps as I consider comfortable), then they should warn before launching another app, not kill the other ones.

That is exactly how webOS did it - it warned about 'Too many cards open, close some of them to launch this app' when running low on RAM.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Well it's not oom-killer what kills the apps. That is why the swappiness thing works, just try it...

Kernel is just not aggressive enough in swapping.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Either the kernel docs are wrong here or I am just a little drunk from christmas yet but I can see the difference when changing the overcommit_ratio. (Where did you find that it only works for overcommit_memory 2 ?)
Also it makes no sense that it is set then by default if it isn't even used. So I suspect it is used. (also I can start a lot more apps with it set to 90 so it must have an effect)

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documenta...stems/proc.txt
CommitLimit: ...

After testing your solution again it seems it is doing something to help anyway. Both of are solutions together are even more helpfull to situation.

You should put over 100 though.
I did "echo 120 > /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_ratio" .
and
"echo 99 > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness"

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Damn, if one is using btrfs on sdcard already, btrfs-swapon would be required. :(

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Even the calculator is being closed automatically, very handy when one wants to incorporate some figures in an emaill.

Drawer, meet Jolla.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

I was seriously contemplating Jolla and BB10 .Here in india Jolla and BB Z10 are in the same price band of about 16K. Now i am left with BB10 as my only choice .Though BB10 limits apps to 8 ,it never closes them as per my knowledge.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

ffs how many apps are you guys using at the same time? is it mittakulou that is so mem heavy or whta? been using u10 fot last week got here maps open most of the time with calculator and few others as they come by, if this happens when compiling i could understand, but mostbguys complaining aren't really devs, wtf? or do you just open all you have to have something to complain about? i hope i'm just the lucky now like was unlucky with overzealous closing of sshdaemon. only thing that closed for me was an android game, expected, can't complain

edit: haha ok now i can complain, with all those windowds oen eas unable to attach lol
then again, no sail apps closed on me, are the complainers all from androod world?

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

I think they mostly are. I was trying to help them with with info on swappiness and all...

Well when you open android firefox and check memory stats you'll notice that it eats 15% of available memory. Add then android opera and it eats another 15 %...

That was the way I was checking if those settings helped.
It is helping to open more apps.
But sadly swappiness to insane numbers like my 99 adds lag to ui.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

True, checked again based on comments of you guys.

When only native Sailfish mail, notes, webbrowser, calculator , calendar open, nothing strange happened during 20 min of iddle.

Opening Firefox for Android however was enough to close all of the above mentioned programs.

So there seems to be a major change with regard to Android programs. I thought previously, Android Myriad Dalvik just had 512MB RAM at max and the rest would remain reserved for Jolla?

Before I never noticed severe lag or unacceptible slowdowns. In same usage scenario.

I know the difference between normal use and a torture test.

Besides opening many programs is not fun.on Jolla like on N900 simce it does not display more than 9 miniature views by default.


The Firefox besides being the best mobile browser IMO, I am using to save as PDF.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Firefox was just an example. Every browser is much the same. But android apps in general eat more memory.

But here is good reading for those that are interested in why things happen.

http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/...of-memory.html

But remember mobile is different beast, you just can't kill every process so there needs to be protection for some and this is where it gets complicated.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

my Calculator is gone again. So is file browse and callender

Collection of Sailfish natives that have pushed them out: Poor maps, Mail, messaging, phone and IRC.

Wonder why so radical a change.

Chinese uberpartner that is about to adopt Sailfish if only it behaves like Android?
Jolla discovered quality issues with the Emmc memory and wants to avoid swapping at all cost?

If so just let us know so we can move swap space to SD memory.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Zram comes now preinstalled. After commenting out zramswapon line in

/lib/systemd/system/zram.service

and rebooting I seem to get that extra 100 MB back. It seemed to me that just disabling that service does not work out.

Now I really need both Android Firefox and Sailfish Browser have big pages open until OOM starts its crusade.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Not that many. Due to the reduced usability of the Jolla compared to the N900, I use it basically only as a web browser (as it has a bigger screen and longer battery life than the N900).

However, on the N900, with only a quarter or Jolla's RAM, I habitually have 8 to 12 windows open at the same time. A few Leafpad instances, a terminal or two, an email, three browser windows... The phone can become sluggish if I keep them open for a few days but it never forcibly closes any application behind my back.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

I've had apps close with just Sailfish apps. Typically I'll have mail, phone, tweetian and a browser open. I'll switch to tweetian or the browser and when I go back, mail has been killed.

Browser tab reloading has returned too.

Not happy. They really need to change this behaviour as it makes a mockery of the multitasking view.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Well, you did not really get it back - you lost up to 200 MB. Zram kicks in before the real swap starts to be used and can usually achieve an up to 50% compression ratio. So a 100 MB zram volume can give you up to 200 MB in-RAM space - basically an extra 100 MB of still fast RAM.

Actually I wonder if that new fancy OOM killer actually takes zram properly into account, as using it should not lead to any noticeable slowdowns. If would be very very wrong if it just lumps it together with normal swap when calculating if it should kill something.

Also, the zram volume size (actually 2x50 MB so that both CPU cores can be used for compression) seems kinda small compared to overall ram size - it is usually advised to use a much bigger amount of ram for zram. Even the N9 that also had just 1 GB of RAM used 256 MB for zram (still called compcache back then - see these nice slides about compcache usage on the N9 and N900).

So I would advice trying to make the overall zram volume size larger to see if it helps with the OOM situation. :)

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

I didnt mean disabling zram, but just removing the old zramcfg from Warehouse if you had it installed in Uitukka.

Here is swapon show with the old unofficial zramcfg installed in Vaarainjärvi:

http://aijaa.com/2FG9he

Here its removed:

http://aijaa.com/RXcecY

The latter case works MUCH better for me, the Jolla now multitasks better than ever and I don't see the problems people are talking about here.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Definately something wrong here.

Open programs: Firefox Android, Dolphin Android, Calculator (sorry Jolla bit I prefer this one to stay on displaying latest operations), IRC, OwnKeepass, phone application.

Trying to open: Space Inspector 0.4

Result: 3 times fail, application quits durimg start up

Solution: Quit Dolphin and Firefox -> Space Inspector starts.


I d consider my device as clean. No Dev mode, no patches, no hacks.

Don't have a pc to tweak settings as suggested and seriously, we should not have to.tweake anything.
Hardcore multitasking was and should remain available.

I don't believe in average Joe needing auto closing apps and play hunt for.the icon to.relaunch your app over and.over again is.not something I am willing to.coop with.

Does any HW guru present knows if it.could be that the previous swapping configuration was wearing the internal.memory too fast and that Jolla there for took such extreme countermeasures?

Just a guess based on the assumptiom that the .sailors tested the.new cconfig, did.not.like.it.either but released it anyway.

Apologies for spelling, learning to.post on.Jolla. Keyb not bad but damn small space bar.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

This probably could of all been avoided with more ram...But realistically, I didn't actually have an issue beforehand with apps and ram management

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Same here, and being a sensible N900 user I did not expect the Jolla to back down under equal conditions.

Shhhht.. got a 12 program multitask going, don't move and take screenshot...

Attachment 36294

Try to upload via Jolla browser.. damn, 'close this window' doesn't work. and I lost my text and a few open programs along the way?

Attachment 36295

Never mind, let's continue the multitasking test. Bring on the big cannons, Firefox for Android:

Attachment 36296

Not too many open programs left from the initial bunch.. Is this 2014?

To save myself some stress I retype this text and upload image (including one taken from the N900 as I found it, uptime 15 days) via MicroB on my trusty N900.
Wow what a relief selecting images to upload via the stylus and using HW arrow keys to navigate text. Swirl zoom to enlarge that drop down button.. sweet, let it be 2010. =)
Me nor N900 care about how many open programs including skype and SIP online it has exactly.


Attachment 36297

Edit: forgot the conclusion.
The N900 is the closest thing resembling a computer in my luggage and neither Kindle Fire or Jolla or the combo of those two could replace it and offer the same overal convenience of ussage.

Jolla just undid the best argument I could come up with as to why use the Jolla. Multitasking unlimited.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

More RAM??? Whatever the hell for!? My main PC, running Debian Wheezy, 1 GB RAM and no swap, idle with just the OS, background processes and SysMon running, uses 140 MB RAM. My Jolla, allegedly optimised for running on low resources, uses 420 MB in the same configuration. HOW COME???

It's not more RAM we need. It's less bloat.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

I'd assume that isn't running GNOME 3 or similar but something very light. It also doesn't need to have a virtual keyboard daemon available at all times, no SIM stuff, no phone call or messaging UI (both stay in memory), no tracker (assuming you don't have tracker installed), etc. These are all small things but they add up quickly. Of course, there are also some background processes a phone doesn't need that a desktop computer does.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

That's right, you would not catch me touching that stuff. LXDE for me, please ;)

If phone + messaging + keyboard daemons add up to 300 MB, then something is seriously wrong. And no, phone and messaging UI do not need to run all the fime, just thin daemons. Old "dumb" phones managed calls and SMS better and with RAM counted in kilobytes.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Also the overall data throughput is much faster on a desktop PC - so no heavy programs start almost instantly. But due to the quite slow EMMC on the Jolla if you want things to show up at once, you basically need to preload them to RAM or cope with a loading delay in the range of seconds..

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Oh, that's a good point! :-) Quite a lot of people were using the earlier "community" zram, so the old config could be breaking things for the official one. Still, I don't see much difference - the "official" config appears to be using an even smaller overall size of the zram volumes, but I guess the big difference in the priority values might influence the OOM killer somewhat.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Same problem here, with a few small apps (mail/sms/contacts/media player/tweetian) when I use the browser (Android's firefox, or the native one)...

This also kills the point of active covers : "look, you can interact with apps without having to open them, saving a few gestures", if you need to search for the app in the application drawer, then wait for it to reload, switch back to the home screen, to finally interact with its cover...
On this widgets have the benefit to never disappear, even if the application has been closed (manually or by the system), along with the fixed position (easier to memorize and find back) but it is another discussion...

I wonder how can some OS be based only on HTML5 applications if each time we try to launch a browser it kills the other apps ?

And about memory consumption, my N8 with its 256MB of RAM only handled quite well several apps (Qt based for some) and Opera Mobile with a few tabs without a problem. Not has smooth as the Jolla of course, but it got the job done...

I'll have to find some time to try your tips, as I didn't notice this before with U8.

Re: [SFOS][1.1.0.27][OOM] The death of multitasking?
 

Strange, I have not experienced this behavior (OOM killer killing apps) yet. Of course, I have the habit of not having more than 5-6 apps open at the same time - I find it somewhat confusing having to look for an app cover the way they always move around.
On the other hand, just to test a bit, I opened settings app, sailfish browser (one tab), gallery, Friends, Jolla together app, SysMon, terminal, Mitakuuluu, and Chess.com (Android app). Still nothing got killed. I have not touched any memory settings.

EDIT: Yeah it also happened to me after a while..