maemo.org - Talk - Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Page 1 of 2

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)

- Community (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95768)

szopin

2015-07-23 19:24

Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Not even going into legality of 'we redefine community to fix inherent problem with rules we set up expecting every member to be forever - referendum', this comment from reddit discussion I believe captures reasons to stay anonymous to not become a victim of shaming for wrongthink:
https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/com...onduct/ct7dfxs

With twit lynch mobs hanging nobel laureates (check Tim Hunt saga) just based on couple of lying tweets, defence is impossible, so to all saying, join up now, your real name will be easily accessible, sorry, bad idea. Prefer other way of fixing it (active members of tmo? logged in in last year, or posted in last year? whatever, not going to drop that, if it makes me poor community member, too bad)

edit: relevant part:

Quote:

Because of that people on both sides are having their lives permanently (or at least long term) ruined and affected because of stuff going on outside of doxing. Doxing is not difficult to do when people attach their real names to a project like FreeBSD. For the most part it's quite easy with how many interconnected databases there are. Most people don't even bother to use different usernames/pseudonyms for different sites.

I've already contributed some things to FreeNAS and would like to start contributing some things to FreeBSD. However based on my opinions I won't do so because I would honestly feel threatened in my own home.

Threats go beyond calling my employer, calling in fake rape accusations (as happened to /u/xmjEE) and general online harassment. People are now getting swatted over arguments on both sides. I don't want to go to bed every night wondering if my front door is going to be kicked down because someone called in a fake crime. With how things are playing out with US law enforcement when it's "shoot first, ask questions later" it's only a matter of time before someone ends up dead..

Because of people like Randi and her followers me contributing to FreeBSD would genuinely make me fear for my life. This has expanded beyond Usenet flame wars. Real people are being affected in real ways and that is why so many people have issues with both sides.

This all started out in gaming with GamerGate but is now spilling over into the rest of everything computer related. It's a serious issue that needs to be addressed because if it isn't it is only going to get worse from here.

juiceme

2015-07-23 19:30

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

I don't really see this as a serious threat in our Maemo community.

szopin

2015-07-23 19:35

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

People interact with different communities, GA being real world names is a deal breaker for me. He posted that sympathetic to GG thread on maemo, find the guy on linkedin, email employer (or swat him), those tactics are being constantly used, check the comment I linked, he provides sources/examples.

endsormeans

2015-07-23 19:41

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Anon members posting means inevitable accusation without any possible recourse to face the said accuser.
It also means posting without responsibility...
few people I know of are mature enough for it.

AND IN ANY FORM ...ANON DIALOGUE I AM SOOOO AGAINST THAT.

szopin

2015-07-23 19:45

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1477734)

Anon members posting means inevitable accusation without any possible recourse to face the said accuser.

AND IN ANY FORM OF DIALOGUE I AM SOOOO AGAINST THAT.

What do you mean? The freebsd guys were not anon and see how that turned out. People cannot post their opinions freely if their nick can be traced to real world name as they can get fired/swatted/...
Did you check that reddit thread at all? We currently live in a world where twitter mob can ruin your career/life if doxing is easy

Dave999

2015-07-23 19:45

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

What happen in TMO, stays in TMO!

Whats anon?

pichlo

2015-07-23 19:54

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477735)

People cannot post their opinions freely if their nick can be traced to real world name

You got it the wrong way around. People cannot properly defend themselves if their attackers' nics cannot be traced to a real world name. Hiding behind the cloak of anonymity, what courage, heh?

The same applies, only much more so, to anonymous moderating.

szopin

2015-07-23 19:56

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1477736)

What happen in TMO, stays in TMO!

Whats anon?

Anon means noone knows your real name dave, so even if in one of your ranty posts you say something 'disgracefully misogynist/chauvinist/sexist' you will not feel real life consequences for it. They will not email your employer, they will not harass your family (we've seen that with one Jolla employee), they will not swat you which in US at least could cost you yours and your loved ones' lives
They can and do go after noble laureates, based on false reporting he got forced to resign from UCL and Royal Society committee (http://unfashionista.com/2015/07/21/...-sir-tim-hunt/ ), they can take down normal people much easier (just check the reddit thread for more examples how wrongthink and not agreeing with them in every possible matter can end up you being the 'offender' who has to be punished)

endsormeans

2015-07-23 19:57

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Honestly ...
If a person is responsible and posting responsibly...
then where is the harm? where is the foul?
tracing back to a real world name so someone can get in trouble with their employer?
Well unless said person is slagging their employer somehow...
or they are playing hookey from work to post..
or the said person is spewwing hate of some kind...
then the employer has no grounds for firing anyone ...period.

Honestly...by your reasoning szop .. browsing...let alone shopping for marital toys online ...let alone just surfing anything potentially controversial even accidentally can net you the desired firing from your employer ...if anyone scopes you who has it in for you...hell they can fabricate whatever they need to....
So technically every last person on this planet is in just the same threat daily...

szopin

2015-07-23 19:58

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1477737)

You seem to misunderstand me, defending from someone saying something hurtful on the internet? Just turn around. There, no longer hurt feelings. With your name easily learnable, someone taking offense to one of the joke posts here will cost you your job, bit of a difference

szopin

2015-07-23 20:01

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1477739)

The thread linked in OP has example how one of freebsd contributors got harassed (for being supposedly a harasser, no less, disagree with them - harassment), by self-described anti-harassment campaigner (won't link to breitbart if you need more background on that paragon of virtue, the links are there) if you think this is fine and normal...

szopin

2015-07-23 20:29

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Or lets bring some background on the new face of the internet activism and inclusivity, sorry for the wall of text, but it seems noone has time to click on a link:
http://georgia.arrests.org/mugs/Cobb..._15_809243.jpg publicly available mugshot

Quote:

Since her ascendance to minor notoriety, Harper has become known for her abusive tactics and for misrepresentations of her critics.
[...]
Roberto Rosario is a 29-year veteran of software development and former head of Puerto Rico’s chapter of the International Games Development Association (IGDA). His crime, in Randi Harper’s eyes, was following the wrong people on Twitter.

Harper’s claim to fame is a Perl script called the “GGautoblocker”, which she says is a tool to automatically block “internet harassers” and “misogynists” on Twitter. But peer-reviewed research (*) commissioned by the feminist organisation Women, Action and Media found that just 0.66 per cent (65) of the 9,844 Twitter accounts on the list can be classified as “harassers.”

[...] If you follow the wrong people, you are automatically added to the list, regardless of what you, personally, have done.

This is what happened to Roberto Rosario, one the most prominent figures in Puerto Rico’s tech community. Describing Harper’s list as “the most idiotic algorithm I’ve seen,” Rosario pointed out that preemptively accusing people of harassment and misogyny on the basis of their associations was “nonsense.”
[...]
Harper made no effort to clear Rosario’s name, stating instead that if Roberto “didn’t want to be labelled a creep, he shouldn’t attack women’s credibility,” and refused to remove his name from the list.

What followed was a relentless campaign of abuse against the software developer. Since criticising Harper, Rosario says he has been “harassed and threatened on the web daily” because of people who “didn’t know him and assumed he was a misogynist,” thanks to his inclusion on Harper’s list.

Needless to say, far from being a misogynist, Rosario is a sponsor of IncludeGirls, a group that aims to improve gender representation in tech. Such details didn’t matter to Harper or his other abusers.
[...]
Rosario’s career was also targeted, and he states he was even blacklisted from speaking at certain events. He was eventually cowed into silence, and no longer issues public comment on Harper’s blocklist or related issues.

Throughout these happenings, Harper, the “online abuse prevention activist,” did nothing to assist Rosario. His name remains on her blocklist.

Chris von Csefalvay

Chris von Csefalvay is a data scientist living in Oxford. He is a fellow of both the Royal Society of Arts and the Royal Statistical Society, with degrees from the Universities of Oxford and Cardiff. He is currently chief data scientist to a FTSE 100 company.
[...]
Csefalvay first became a target of Harper after he published a network analysis indicating that GamerGate, a movement Harper is implacably opposed to, did not fit the characteristics of an “online hate campaign.”

During a Twitter exchange with Csefalvay, Harper accused the data scientist of employing a “dismissive tone.” Csefalvay clarified his position, stating that dismisiveness was not his intention and that “the more people interested in [the topic of gamergate], the better.”

Harper did not accept his apology. Accusing Csefalvay of being a “fake data scientist,” she urged her followers to explain to him why he “isn’t just a sexist tool, but an entire sexist home depot.” Naturally, she also added him to her autoblocker.
[...]
Csefalvay says Harper is an “obsessive” and that she continues to keep tabs on his tweets despite the fact that he wants nothing more to do with her.

“She likes hitting the vulnerable points of people,” says Csefalvay. “Her most recent attacks on me were on the day I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.”

Harper would continue to call out Csefalvay for several months, as a campaign of abuse against the data scientist escalated. “Once [Harper] got involved, things got particularly vile”, said Csefalvay, speaking to gaming blogger Stephanie Greene. “That’s when it got into the realm of of very graphic and very shockingly violent threats.”

In January, Csefalvay announced he was retiring from the online debate, after anonymous death and rape threats were made against his wife.

Claire Schumann

[...]
Like Harper, Schumann was an opponent of the GamerGate movement, and spent “months” in polite conversation with Brianna Wu, another opponent of the movement. Wu described her as “very polite.”

But Schumann began having second thoughts, opting to conduct an “Ask me Anything” session on GamerGate and anti-GamerGate communities on Reddit, in order to find common ground.

This attracted the attention of Harper, who accused Schumann of being a “gamergate sockpuppet” playing “psychological games.” Although she didn’t have to, Schumann apologised, and said she would stop commenting on the controversy.

This wasn’t enough for Harper. “You’ve made your Gamergate bed, now get ****ed in it,” Harper wrote. Schumann ended up being driven to tears by the blue-haired anti-abuse activist.

Vivek Wadhwa

[...]
For a long time, Wadhwa was also one of the leading advocates for diversity in technology. But he recently made the decision to end his advocacy on the issue, labelling the debate “toxic.” He made his decision after he was targeted by an online harassment campaign — one which Randi Harper was intimately involved with.

Wadhwa’s tireless advocacy for women and minorities in tech wasn’t enough for some feminists. In February, the blogger Amelia Greenhall kicked off a campaign against him with a blog post accusing him of hogging the limelight and employing a condescending tone. (No, really.)
[...]
The blog post cited Randi Harper, who just a few days earlier had accused Wadhwa of being a “profiteering pseudo-ally,” before going on a long rant explaining her theory of how Wadhwa’s commitment to diversity was insincere.

Naturally, the anti-abuse activist also descended to the level of personal abuse. “**** everything about this guy,” she added. When someone tried to stick up for Wadhwa, her response was, “Go set yourself on fire.”

It didn’t end there. Wadhwa’s Wikipedia and Amazon pages were targeted by a mob of his opponents, eager to ruin his reputation. Both websites are consulted regularly by members of the public and the press and, rightly or wrongly, what’s written there is taken seriously
[...]
Harper would eventually receive a comeuppance of sorts, after a group that monitors Amazon review trolling outed her(**) as a bully(***). They later received support from world-famous author Anne Rice

* - http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/201...es-wam-report/
** - http://www.stopthegrbullies.com/2015...-bully-review/
*** - http://www.stopthegrbullies.com/2015...-bully-review/

MINKIN2

2015-07-23 21:35

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477743)

Or lets bring some background on the new face of the internet activism...

You do realize that by posting this here, you are running the risk of enticing this person and their followers to our little corner of the internet?

With TMO's diminishing community along with the ongoing drives to keep the lights on and trademarks, do we really want to bring any attention that can jeopardise the efforts of the council and supporting members alike?

szopin

2015-07-23 21:54

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by MINKIN2 (Post 1477750)

Look at the communities that do not speak and let their masters (CC, or is it now MCeV? Who's going to make a stand when the twitter mafia comes to them to introduce diversity committee, because too many councilors are men?) make leeway, it starts with, Ok, we want to help you gals in your oh so glorious task of bringing justice to this world, one place on council for a woman, Ok, lets set up a diversity committee, no white men allowed, Ok, we should have quotas in council members (or MCeV, whatever), Ok, anyone saying any sexist joke will be banned from TMO, OK, we will provide their real name or IP address, so you can seek justice against them (hell, we already have a few members here who did succumb to the social justice agenda, aside from the lunatic that was harassing jolla, total transparency!!! <- he was trying to do that on twitter going after anyone who interacted with @jollahq, same tactic, same FOSS lover to go after master/slave terminology). Aside from the lunatic we did not have (to my knowledge) harassment in RL, but with the whole tornado of 'internet activism in 201x year'... They tried with Dawkins, they failed, they tried with Linus, they failed, who is going to stand up to them here exactly???

edit: Point is, you can't hide, my nick from elsewhere will lead them here, if my membership in GA with real name is a fact, I'm fcked. Even if most of the community agrees twitter lynch mobs suck :(

endsormeans

2015-07-23 22:11

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

You don't get it man...
minkin2. is right... you are simply sending up flares for trouble to come here by posting this "person" and all ...here.
Why not just cut to the chase and email an invite to her to come over here and incite trouble?
And it wouldn't matter whether you handed her your real name or not ...
a person can find out whatever they wish..
no matter what ...
with enough determination.

szopin

2015-07-23 22:17

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

ends:
Something from your own backyard, not sure if you've seen it:
http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/110...ave-her-alone/

Man facing jail for twitter interactions:

Quote:

“@greg_a_elliott Please do me a favour & not reply to my posts. You don’t follow me- were you creeping the #TOpoli tag to find my tweet?” she tweeted on Aug. 9, 2012.

“.@ladysnarksalot how’d you feel if I was so delusional to ask you to not retweet me? You want “control” use your email, not Twitter. #TOpoli,” @greg_a_elliott replied, after suggesting that Reilly didn’t understand the point of Twitter.

[...]
The exchanges became increasingly hostile that month, with @greg_a_elliott tweeting that Reilly was a “hateful b–tch” and accusing her and other women he dubbed “#fascistfeminists” of ganging up on him, Reilly said.

He also posted tweets like “Heather’s fat *** gets fatter” with the #topoli hashtag but without mentioning her Twitter handle in the tweet (known as subtweeting), the court heard. Subtweeting meaning the other Twitter user mentioned won’t be automatically notified that he or she is being discussed.

It was on Sept. 11 when Reilly began to be concerned for her safety, she testified. She and a group of friends met at a west-end bar and were tweeting about their evening, she testified.

“A whole lot of ugly at the Cadillac Lounge tonight,” @greg_a_elliott tweeted. The tweet made her fear that Elliott was at the same bar and search the room to make sure he was not, she said.

Her concerns “escalated from name-calling to that he could do physical harm to me,” she said. (Elliott is not accused of threatening any of the complainants.)

Two weeks later @greg_a_elliott replied to a tweet she sent related to the Toronto International Film Festival and it was the last straw, she said.

She reported the @greg_a_elliott account to Twitter, but they offered no assistance. She went to the police after seeing Elliott was charged with criminally harassing Stephanie Guthrie, she said.

“Not everyone on the Internet is going to be your friend and wants to be your friend,” said Reilly, acknowledging that Twitter is a publicly available forum. “There are people out there who just want to stir up a reaction.”

But she testified that Elliott’s tone and repeated and deliberate involvement of her in Twitter fights crossed a line. “I didn’t appreciate the attacks I felt I received,” she told the court.

Elliott’s lawyer has argued that the three complainants in the case conspired to gang up on Elliott, and were in fact the ones who were bullying Elliott.

Public forum, watch out, you might be going to jail (posted the accuser's account, the other side paints a much different picture when they started 'to fear for their life' based on his non-direct tweets, yeah, canadian law is perfect, in NZ it's even better btw)
We've passed the crazy point, examples like lynch mobbing Tim Hunt don't stop the crazy, victims now have the privilege. Internet is no longer good to share ideas, as you might have real life consequences from that (anyone here whose nick is easily linked to their name is probably aware of that when they want to comment on some 'funny' post, will it make some people angry and cost me a lot? Maybe better avoid it and just nod politely, if you haven't had this, good for you, but watch out, not taking that into consideration can end in a crash course in internet justice)

edit: last edit as I'm out, my first lesson about internet some twenty something years ago was from a very intelligent guy, it went something like this: you can't erase a thing from the internet, so once you go public, it's done. anonymity is something you need to keep in mind, there's no getting it back
That was before google, before NSA (at least their internet data mining programme afaik), this guy was a good mentor. In the age of FB most people forgot it. Maemo(tm) community expecting people to abandon that principle to form a GA and circumvent referendum rules? BAD IDEA, there I said it, goodnight

Win7Mac

2015-07-24 00:47

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477730)

legality of ]'we redefine community... - referendum'

There would be no legality whatsoever (incl. not being able to sign contracts) with just a bunch of people being agregated in an "Interessengemeinschaft". Are you suggesting anarchy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477730)

...to fix inherent problem with rules we set up...

right

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477730)

...expecting every member to be forever

What... where you took that from? - Only diamonds are forever. :p

I guess this thread shows exactly what I meant when I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Win7Mac (Post 1476649)

Frankly, to me, you're a pita in the community topics...

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477733)

People interact with different communities, GA being real world names is a deal breaker for me.

You could still play havoc with other forums while this one probably would be somewhat neglected then, I guess... Considering your other posts, you probably should check out blog.transparency.org.

Love your ambitions but can't find a reasonable ground. :(

szopin

2015-07-24 00:49

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Win7Mac (Post 1477758)

There would be no legality whatsoever (incl. not being able to sign contracts) with just a bunch of people being agregated in an "Interessengemeinschaft". Are you suggesting anarchy?

right

What... where you took that from? - Only diamonds are forever. :p

I guess this thread shows exactly what I meant when I said:

You could still play havoc with other forums while this one probably would be somewhat neglected then, I guess... Considering your other posts, you probably should check out blog.transparency.org.

Love your ambitions but can't find a reasonable ground. :(

You wannabe politicians are really a pain in the arsehole in the community threads, go politic somewhere else, we are talking about real world effects of which you can dispute for weeks on forums with your pseudo lawyer lingo

endsormeans

2015-07-24 01:03

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

I'd suggest calming down and utilizing more polite, courteous dialogue..
else there is a very high percentage chance if you continue and directly take pokes at people...that in all likelihood you will probably end up... at best... talking to an empty room...

Win7Mac

2015-07-24 01:06

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477759)

You wannabe politicians...

Dude, check your expectation!
You're probably even somewhat right with some of your complaints... But Since you're interacting with different communities,.. could you just not focus all your bad vibes somewhere there?
Why are you questioning 'western culture' over here?

szopin

2015-07-24 01:39

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Win7Mac (Post 1477761)

I'm just giving back the honour:

You are a PITA in community threads <- quote by win7mac, right back at you, is it offensive suddenly? Whoa

Quote:

szopin, got your point, thanks.
Frankly, to me, you're a pita in the community topics...

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=103

reinob

2015-07-24 07:56

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477764)

I'm just giving back the honour

@szopin,

Please relax a bit. I admit I've never used twitter and I don't really know what crackpot-hole reddit is or was.

But FFS knowing the name of somebody doesn't mean anything. I could take the damn phonebook (yes we still have those) and call the police and accuse "Markus Müller" (or whatever common names the Germans have) of anything. The one ending up with a problem would me be for speading false accusations.

I don't know (and I honestly don't want to know) if US police ("SWAT") are actually that dumb to go after anyone because "somebody in twitter said this or that". If it's so, then THEY have a problem, but I don't want to be anonymous because some dumbasses don't like it. I call that terrorism, in the actual sense of the word.

It pains me to say this, but you are really becoming a PITA around here. If you have a problem with TMO and/or the Maemo community then by all means take a break and come back when you're OK.

The world is full of organizations and communities with no anonimity of any kind (it's usually not allowed, not even in Facebook for fvck's sake!). And we're still here alive and kicking.
I submit that Twitter and whatever obscure communities you seem to follow are not representative of the real world.

But hey, it's just an (my) opinion.

szopin

2015-07-24 08:29

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

From wikipedia:
Swatting is the act of tricking an emergency service (via such means as hoaxing an emergency services dispatcher) into dispatching an emergency response based on the false report of an ongoing critical incident. The term derives from SWAT (Special Weapons and Tactics), a highly specialized type of police unit in the United States carrying equipment such as door breaching equipment and powerful firearms.

Swatting has been associated with online harassment campaigns, and episodes range from large to small — from the deployment of bomb squads, SWAT units and other police units and the concurrent evacuations of schools and businesses, to a single fabricated police report meant to discredit an individual as a prank or personal vendetta.[1]

The action of swatting-linked to the action of doxxing (obtaining the address and details of an individual)-has been described as terrorism due to its potential to cause disruption, waste the time of emergency services, divert attention from real emergencies and possibly cause injuries to persons targeted.[2][3] The act of making false reports to emergency services is punishable by prison sentences in the U.S. and a crime in many other countries.[4]

While possibly not lethal in europe, in the US with militarized police forces it is actually quite dangerous, so yeah, glad you had no experiences of that, but it is happening with the latest 'activisms'

m4r0v3r

2015-07-24 13:06

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

it happens to a lot of people that generally stream online.

pichlo

2015-07-24 13:23

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by reinob (Post 1477771)

I don't know (and I honestly don't want to know) if US police ("SWAT") are actually that dumb to go after anyone because "somebody in twitter said this or that". If it's so, then THEY have a problem, but I don't want to be anonymous because some dumbasses don't like it. I call that terrorism, in the actual sense of the word.

Exactly! The US government and media may use a warped definition of the word but this is the real meaning:

Quote:

terrorism
[ter-uh-riz-uh m]
noun

the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

The tactics employed by the lady mentioned in szopin's post #12 or the millitant feminists' attacks on Nobel Prize laureates fit that definition perfectly.

The Only Right Way™ to deal with that is to stand up to it face-on and call it what it is, not cowardly hide behind the cloak of anonymity. That makes you no better than them.

Oh and yes, my real name is no secret. It is easy to find using only the information available on this website.

szopin

2015-07-24 13:51

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Good luck, hopefully your boss doesn't mind a flurry of emails accusing you of being rape apologist, misogynist, sexist...

Quote:

And right now I'd like to point out that Randi Lee Harper is speaking at OSCON this weekend.

TL;DR: A large and prominent tech conference (3.5K attendees) run by O'Reilly Media and sponsored by major tech companies is presenting Randi as an "anti-harassment" activist. When evidence of her track record of abuse and harassment was brought to the attention of the conference organizers last month, they publicly dismissed those contacting them about her as "trolls".

WHY THIS MATTERS: This is by far the biggest venue Randi has ever appeared in and the deception that she and the conference organizers are engaged in is shameful. If enough of us post evidence of who Randi really is to the #OSCON tag, there's a very good chance that future conference organizers (and their sponsors) will think twice before embarrassing themselves by giving Randi a platform.

http://interviews.slashdot.org/comme...1&cid=50165887

pichlo

2015-07-24 14:20

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

If my employer falls for that kind of bullsh¡t then I would be better off with a different employer, don't you think?

szopin

2015-07-24 14:37

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Not going to take that chance (aside from that staying anonymous was a conscious decision long ago, not recent defence tactic as you suggest), just keep in mind that being self employed doesn't protect you, or are you better off without those contracts/clients who don't care about truth but see a lot of shaming and buzzwords thrown around
Freebsd guy lost 2600$ thanks to her:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.freebsd.advocacy/5417

endsormeans

2015-07-24 15:51

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

I'm a northern neighbour to the US..
and we see some pretty sketchy stuff happening sometimes down there...
But you fellas across the pond need to put some perspective on things...
I'd suggest asking fellow american maemoans about what happens in their country before fear mongering and twisting things out of context.
Sure they have a militarized police force.
They need it.
When the populace have the "right" to bear arms (originally meant for a non-gov't public militia to be able to rise up against a gov't in power which becomes tyrannical...) it means that when the police go to a house over a ludicrous barking dog complaint...or pull someone over for speeding...there is a very good chance they won't be just shot...but riddled with bullets...and armour-piercing to boot ...if not bloody well blown up or vaporized by some of the weaponry the public are "allowed" to own.
Even here in Canada...at present we are dealing with truly messed up people who are assaulting our law enforcement and killing them.

No person who makes their life's ambition and job.. to keep others safe from physical harm ...deserves to die.. at the hands of nutbars who think it is a god-given right to kill other people.

Even still...we have no room in our canadian society for either the bleeding-heart-liberal- crying injustice nor the hard-bitten-conservative toting an AK ...neither are welcome.

People getting along, working things out, finding solutions ..we have plenty of room for.

Closer to home...here at maemo...
I am a bit concerned...
1stly- yes you have a valid argument szopin ...
in the case of alerting the community to the hazards of becoming the victim of (essentially) predators ...for lack of a better term... and online terrorism.

But you really better hear this part man...
Between the title of this post and "what's wrong with western society" ...well that is really pushing man...and not in the good way.
The content of your argument is fairly sound...
really.

The thing is ...
1- Unless you offer a viable ...realistic solution or alternative which can actually be put into practice and which the community can understand and accept.
or
2- Unless you alert the populace of the community to the dangers (which you did) and then follow through with asking for help from the community in trying to figure out how to safeguard said community and implement it. (which you haven't)

then you are just pissing in the wind buddy.

do you get it?

either ask for help in implementing safeguards...
or offer viable realistic solutions which can be put into practice....
otherwise you are just screaming about a problem.

and that is the core reason why your friends here are starting to call you a pain in the arse.
they aren't malicious in their statement ...
but they are worried.

szopin

2015-07-24 18:05

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1477802)

The thing is ...
1- Unless you offer a viable ...realistic solution or alternative which can actually be put into practice and which the community can understand and accept.
or
2- Unless you alert the populace of the community to the dangers (which you did) and then follow through with asking for help from the community in trying to figure out how to safeguard said community and implement it. (which you haven't)

then you are just pissing in the wind buddy.

do you get it?

either ask for help in implementing safeguards...
or offer viable realistic solutions which can be put into practice....
otherwise you are just screaming about a problem.

I'm all ears buddy, afaik knowing is 100% the battle, so screaming (informing) IS the solution. Take Tim Hunt fiasco for instance, major newspapers with respected journalists (guardian, times, bbc,nyt...) reported on it, took 6 weeks >1000 tweets by Louise Mensch (from The Sun goddamit, how easily dismissed is that based on preconceived notions that it is a rag) to finally get first apology from his accusers:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkro...owed-tim-hunt/

People don't have time to dig through, all you can do is inform, but feel free to offer solutions, if the thread did not seem like an invitation to a discussion, sorry, I'm all ears.

endsormeans

2015-07-24 18:41

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Well szopin ..you are 1/2 way there...
but you are still throwing cases....
I'm not disputing their validity...
nor the possibility that crap can come our way...

I think we all understand that the undesirables and undesirable elements in the darker corners of the web are now more and more coming out ..unafraid..showing themselves...or disguised in the garb of "the good guys"... (when it is obvious they are not) ..and wreaking havoc where they can...

We get it.

but throw out an idea (at least) how we should approach a more secure and safe alternative to today's witch-burning mentality ...

or set up a thread to specifically think tank solutions with fellow members.

One thing for certain is that this community is chock full of problem solvers...tinkerers and puzzle-lovers ...always itching in their overcompensating OCD ways to find solutions.
Work with that parameter and I'm sure we will have the safer community you and we all desire.

So throw in viable, realistic, implementable ideas that the community sees and understands the need for ...and will back you up on.

My ideas?
Well...
I will never accept total anonymity amoungst members.
that is just as dangerous in a different context as handing out your real name, address, phone number and email.
it will mean the inevitable dissolution of the community you wish to protect.
But I do see a middle ground.
Making the GA members real world identities only visible to the GA ...to one another...not the real world.
That safeguards identity and at the same time is not anonymity.
Those bitching about it being a "private club" can complain all they wish..or go through the due process of joining the GA so their voice can be heard amoungst their peers legitimately
The purpose is to allow free speech, the sharing of ideas, problem solving, voting, etc. in a safe secure environment...

I am alllll for this kind of solution.
It aims to address the problem you have raised of too much personal information being exposed to the world and balances it with privacy, security, and yet is not (dangerously) anonymous.

szopin

2015-07-24 20:13

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1477812)

but throw out an idea (at least) how we should approach a more secure and safe alternative to today's witch-burning mentality ...

or set up a thread to specifically think tank solutions with fellow members.

My idea is: there is no pill sized (140 chars) solution. People need to be informed. This community severely lacks in even basic knowledge of latest developments. Mod-logs? Really, even slashdot greybeards seem to be more on top of what is happening in open source and transparency discussion. Maemo is dying by neglect, noone cares about what we should strive for and fight against, monetary contribution to trademark is not enough. Ppl no longer care what is actually changing, send 5$ to feel active is easy. What about discussion/dissecting new ideas? (not going into that quagmire, sorry, but examples of commercial products having TM problems did not address anything, nor being proud, nor being able to negotiate easier (what exactly?), discussion is lacking)

We not only slacking (screw fb/twitter/reddit/... irc all the way is escapism, life went on, we should not be browsing web with mail client), we ignore current situation (sf, now github going bit crazy)

Quote:

One thing for certain is that this community is chock full of problem solvers...tinkerers and puzzle-lovers ...always itching in their overcompensating OCD ways to find solutions.
Work with that parameter and I'm sure we will have the safer community you and we all desire.

So throw in viable, realistic, implementable ideas that the community sees and understands the need for ...and will back you up on.

My ideas?
Well...
I will never accept total anonymity amoungst members.
that is just as dangerous in a different context as handing out your real name, address, phone number and email.
it will mean the inevitable dissolution of the community you wish to protect.
But I do see a middle ground.
Making the GA members real world identities only visible to the GA ...to one another...not the real world.
That safeguards identity and at the same time is not anonymity.
Those bitching about it being a "private club" can complain all they wish..or go through the due process of joining the GA so their voice can be heard amoungst their peers legitimately
The purpose is to allow free speech, the sharing of ideas, problem solving, voting, etc. in a safe secure environment...

I am alllll for this kind of solution.
It aims to address the problem you have raised of too much personal information being exposed to the world and balances it with privacy, security, and yet is not (dangerously) anonymous.

And randi joins as a member, all members' identities compromised. Any other?

(I really don't want to sound dismissive, but it realy is a hard thing to find balance between opposites: anonymity and not, sorry if it comes that way)

Win7Mac

2015-07-24 20:50

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477820)

And randi joins as a member, all members' identities compromised.

Members' personal data is only known to board.
Chemist takes good care I believe. Thankfully, his info is public. ;)

One thing you could do is remind council of it's action item "The selected Code of Conduct (KDE) still needs to be published on TMO."

szopin

2015-07-24 20:54

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

FOIA requests

edit: aside from people's names being currently displayed (this is illegal btw in EU), as a non-profit, foia is a big problem

Win7Mac

2015-07-24 21:01

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

The registering court only knows name, city + country of residence of the 7 founders and full personal info of the directors.

endsormeans

2015-07-24 21:09

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

You have expressed the dangers inherent in total disclosure.

The dangers we will face from total anonymity will be:

- accusation from unknown and unreliable sources which cannot be verified or fought against.

- trolling and harassment for certain. People will join just for that joy.

-most assuredly we will see the people who want to "lift the veil" and see who's who behind the masks of anonymity... start coming round banging on the door "insisting" people are named. May as well just send another flare up in the sky ...pour more blood in the water for sharks to find us.

So ...there is a hole in the idea I threw out there...you are right...new member "randi" joins to get the list.

So.. make the registry of the names of the members part of a secure registry held in the arms of mcev or cc or both and not available for even ga members to browse.
Therein is security whilst not being completely anonymous.

I'll tell you this though szopin...you better start throwing some ideas out there that are viable.

Not just saying "informing is 1/2 the battle" ...
whilst you just do news clippings from the web and throw them here..
and continue to gripe about nothing around here getting done..
and then just shooting down ideas others give ...
without offering a better alternative...
hell ANY alternative in it's place.

'Cause you keep that up...
I can pretty much put money down on the craps table and be sure of a win on the odds that at best...
this is gonna end up being your finest one-man monologue ever.

endsormeans

2015-07-24 21:10

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

There we go szopin...your concern isn't a concern after all.

szopin

2015-07-24 21:10

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Ok I am at a bit of a loss here, if no FOIA releases real names, how can anyone stop you from accepting member with data: name xxx, username yyy, nick szopin? Why even require legally official members, if no checks in place (and if checks are in place foia will work for non-profit, sooo?)

Is KDE doing it wrong and breaking the law?
https://ev.kde.org/members.php

szopin

2015-07-24 21:23

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1477829)

Informing is 1/1 the battle dude, if you like any normal mortal don't have time to spend 5h verifying news you spend exactly 20 seconds on while browsing and respected journalists do the same, you buy into this 'this guy is misogynist, hang him' mentality. All you can do is inform, so people who don't have even 30min get some dug up facts. That's how Louise Mensch managed to turn the tide on Tim Hunt. Do you trust Guardian, Times, NYT??? Well, guess what, they f*** up. Forbes is now apologising, doubt Guardian will. The Sun journalist made the effort to investigate, easily dismissed at first, took 6 weeks to right the wrong (at least in general opinion, the previously mentioned rags still did not fix their reporting).
What could possibly be a solution to that if not facts?????

Win7Mac

2015-07-24 21:25

Re: Real world harassment for opinions, or why GA is doomed to fail

Quote:

Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1477831)

Ok I am at a bit of a loss here, if no FOIA releases real names, how can anyone stop you from accepting member with data: name xxx, usrname yyy, nick szopin? Why even require legally official members, if no checks in place (and of checks are in place foia will work for non-profit, sooo?)

This applies to members, not forum users...
And probably yes, if a forum user happens to become a member, he is well advised to post responsibly. What's wrong with that?

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:58.

Page 1 of 2

Next >

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

vBulletin® Version 3.8.8