What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

I guess it's difficult to say for an outsider. But let me guess.

Poor management - tablet was funded with 4xx% with $2500000. Still they only manage to produce 300. How is that even possible?

Nokia syndrome - Many came from Nokia witch was slow and I guess the used the skills from there and result was slow.

Jolla is cool and I hope them succeed but they must solve the tablet or refund before new year.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Jolla is a mistake, MeeGo is the right answer

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Meego was a misstake, Maemo is the right answer

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

maemo was a mistake cuneiform writing is the right answer... :p

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

oh guys i find you so embarassing when you complaing about evergreen old time passed.
i have never tried maemo, but i have tried meego after trying sailfish.
There are some differences, some features better on meego , some on sailfish. but i think sailfish is a step foward meego ( and it seems to be logic, cause it is based on it). However Jolla's sailfish is as closed in Ui as Meego, so apart for nostalgic queens , there's nothing to complain about. The only think someone can really claim is that maemo was really open so Meego and sailfish are both from dark side of the force (cit Dart Fener). But ONLY under the full openness aspect.

personally even if i dont like some part of behaviour jolla has had...i was sad thinking about fail of the company...So i got happy when recent news came out.
This let me think that i still trust them and even if we dont have to act like groupie (saying yes to everything, even if wrong), we also shouldnt be so negative...

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

smartphone was mistake, 3310 is the right answer :rolleyes:

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

That was indeed a great device.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._mobile_phones

Nokia 1101 is the right answer. Sold more than 250 millions :D

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Do you mean this or that?

Anyway, the right answer is 42!

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Bloody Coca-Cola should publish their recipe and Mercedes all their blueprints. What's wrong with them? They suck!

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

As Nokia executives said in 2007 looking at Iphone :(

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

I hear this all the time and I just don't get it. Apple did not invent the smartphone. I used a smartphone for three years before the iPhone came out. And another one even before that.

Apple did not even improve the smartphone. Both mine were far superior to anything available even today in some respects. If anything, the iPhone was a step back, not forward.

iPhone did not win because it was the first. Or better. It won because it was Apple. They can make a pocket sundial trendy if they put their mind to it, FFS!

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

No my friend, Apple won because they had the best marketing talent in the whole business ... Not the best ideas or products survive (beta max - Palm - Maemo/Meego ... - ...) it's all about selling them in the right way - people don't buy the product they buy the feeling ;-)

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Actually, I can understand it. Apple does not produce "smartphones" (or "computers" for that matter -- they've happily adopted the notion that a Mac is not a PC, as they show in their "Mac vs PC" commercials). In the end, it comes down to who their customers are.

Apple's target customer is explicitly the well-heeled technophobe. "Hey, customer, you see those gadgets everyone seems to be using? Well, here, take a look at this: it does everything those other gadgets do, but it's simple and easy to use. We'll guide you every step of the way, and keep you from making the kind of embarrassing mistakes you'd make on those other devices that give you, well, the freedom to make mistakes. And our gadgets look downright beautiful! You'll be delighted to have this handsome product at your side, and everyone else will be envious."

Apple's goal is customer happiness first, technical superiority second (if at all). In that sense, the first iPhone was a huge improvement on everything that came before; it made the world of people who had no technical ability into "smartphone" users. (Which, essentially, is the same as what the iPod did -- turned the mp3 player world from a technically sophisticated market into a general market.) By selling products directly to non-technical users, Apple tapped into an underserved market and reaped the rewards.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

And what did I say?

The gist is, you may be the market leader for years but you are pretty much guaranteed to go out the moment Apple decides to enter the market. There was absolutely nothing that could have saved Nokia.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

This is EXACTLY why they succeeded! To the very core. As a personal notion, I wonder why it is still not clear to other companies and their sale divisions.

And no. Android didn't do it that way and still succeeded. Yes, that is true also. They did, however, come to an market that had already exploded to expansion and thus didn't need to fight same kind of war. Nokia went down because they choose wrong and were slower than my gran-ma would be against U. Bolt to react and evolve. Also leadership made so many mistakes that it is mindboggling.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

There, corrected it for you... :)

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Indeed! Thanks.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Copernicus got it right.
I am partialy sorry for all foss projects and fanboys (like myself) having to say:

Apple (oh, no, it was steve all by himself) invented a whole new ballgame when it comes to UX.

Most companies not admitting to not even having fully comprehended what happend, not giving credit and not trying to selectively learn from Apples strong points is borderline indication of Dunning Kruger Effect

They are the biggest company in the World now because they came up first with a UX that took noobs completely serious but did not leave out the hackers as it is still based on bsd.
It is that simple but difficult in its humongous heap of details.

No offense to anyone i hope, especially pichlo again has the joy that it looks like this is an answer to his post, no. but sorry upfront<3
i am here to rant against companies and foss projects mindset.

My humble observation from the past years lead me to conclusion that there will probably never be a decent foss ui for everyone. (Sorry again Plasma) because of "too many cooks syndrom".

The Task screams for a "leading mind" to produce a clear line and concept to withstand "outsiders" opinions on unfinished features and half arsed rants based on false comparisons and assumptions.

Yes we have other horses in the race but that was and is my biggest hope that Jolla can still accomplish best, sitting on the shoulders of maemo/meego giant.
Give a competetiv mobile UX to the Foss world.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Apple convinced people that they needed their product, stayed focused and delivered timely, increased their distribution channels and then taught people how to use and develop feelings for their product meanwhile convincing people to develop for their platform.

Wait... I think I just restated everything you said.

Thus we agree.

The issue is that Jolla started strong in their marketing ("unlike") but strayed by not delivering a product, didn't secure third party developers that bring app parity to other platforms without using Android (glad it's there) and the developers that did embrace the platform produced stuff that was made more for themselves, not for people (my opinion).

There's a ton of gems that are out there for Jolla, most feel incomplete though. But there's also an app gap, a marketing inconsistency and above all, a true lack of distribution channels and presence. You have to HUNT for Jolla information. Too much "soon", not enough definitive information, not enough delivery of what's next.

And a very fickle user base.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Amen! You have answered the question posed in the thread title. Thus the thread can be closed.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Thanks. But I think you guys have brought forth far superior points than myself.

My grievances are sprinkled in my post; but let's be honest. Jolla led off on such a strong note, could have capitalized on privacy concerns very early on while the rest of the operating systems were seemingly full of holes and backdoors.

Jolla could have grown past a curiosity but do so by building a few bridges that just didn't congeal or happen. None of us here want a lot of the popular apps. But we're a minority.

And if I hear "soon" once more...

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Another big difference is that Apple concentrated on ease of use since from the beginning and it came their main ethos against PC-world. Then they added the "fancy factor" by distinguished styling, so it was "cool" for people who don't care that much about technical superiority and disliked the clone-like grey boxes. Thus their fan base was already in the mode of "ease of use first, everything else is secondary"-kind of mood when iPhone was launched. Apple had notoriously tight QA for external app developers to keep the experience pleasant, which was also well received in user base, which led to positive cycle.

Comparing to Jolla, we got:

- people who desire replacement for N900, a geek device with efficiency and power being the first and most important factor even at the expense of UI having steep learning curve or even being unsuitable for average users
- people who desire ease of use and powerful multitasking in the spirit of Harmattan, for average users (sometimes referred as "toys" by former group mentioned)
- people who desire FOSS without much regard to anything else

Thus the community is divided within by conflicting ideals.

Jolla then tries to enter mainstream market, which means that UX cannot be tailored for experienced supergeeks only, which results in negative remarks about UI being "too restricted", "ineffective" etc. On the other hand, first iteration of UX was more powerful in some areas, but had steeper learning curve which alienated many since from the start. Add in problems with delivering the phone, the Tablet debacle and other delays, dividing lines have got even deeper.

So, instead of being Apple, doing things in a way that their fan base respected from since the beginning, Jolla is fighting an uphill battle to please community that in itself is unable to decide what it wants and that is very vocal to point every single piece they don't like (be it in a sake of "development", "improving things" or whatever). When some Joe the Average hears about Sailfish OS and Jolla, they search for information and find out that the community is mostly infighting and seemingly displeased about everything Jolla does, it's easy to see him going away and buying another Android-device. So... if there is no heavy lifting done by OEM's, chances for success are unfortunately quite slim.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Apple got pressure sensitive screen. It's genious hope to see that for android and Jolla. Is it really hard to implement. On the bad said Apple do not include multi app view for iPhones. They should

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Jolla wanted something more commercial than what they did at NOKIA. And that is quite understandable. Unlike NOKIA at Nxxx time, they didn't and still don't have any other product that will bring some money. NOKIA had symbian and 1/3 of the market and yet they failed. And they did have everything a long before Apple or android but they refused to market it. Instead, they were forcing symbian (which was great, but not with S60 on top of it) without touch support. Unlike Ericsson with UIQ. After first iphone they implemented touch but that was terrible user experince. It did more bad than good at that time.
Jolla on the other hand had a solid future user base for a startup but the manged to alienate most of them/us by keeping things in the dark and trying to get some new users instead of capitalizing on what they had in maemo community and then go forward from that. And a lot of us were willing to accept something that wasn't N900.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

the N900 has a pressure sensitive touchscreen many years before the iPhone..... (although it is resistive)

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

This proves the marketing points brought up in this thread.

Pressure sensitive screens are not new. Just the marketing jargon has become specific and relevant (see above)

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Why do people talk of Apple as if they are the rule? Apple are the exception, not the rule. Microsoft and Google are the rule in this business. Network externalities are far more persuasive than 'silicon art', something that Bill Gates understood when he was just a kid negotiating with IBM. Steve Jobs only begrudingly acknowledged it later, which is why he would always develop a face that looked like a smacked arse whenever Microsoft were mentioned in interviews. Even he had to admit that most people don't care about 'art' if the platform doesn't have the software that they need to share data with friends/family/colleagues/clients.

Apple's continuing success depends entirely on their ability to manufacture wants and persuade people of them. They are very good at it, but it's a pretty fragile business model to attempt to emulate, especially if don't have a bottomless pit of cash.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

I hate to say it, but I have to disagree on this point. Apple did come up with a UX that takes noobs completely seriously. But it does so by leaving out the hackers.

When you choose to implement a user interface, you need to face an inherent contradiction in user requirements. If you provide a great deal of functionality and the ability to access that functionality quickly and easily, you make the device more powerful and flexible; this is desired by the technophile users. On the other hand, if you limit the functionality to a core set of frequently-used functions, and erect barriers between the user and any features that could be dangerous (or even just embarrassing), you make the device simpler and easier to understand. This is desired by technophobe users.

In short, you simply can't make a universal UI. Every compromise made towards one group of users alienates the other group.


To my mind, there is really no point in making an open-source novice-friendly mobile user interface. How would it be maintained? Nobody who writes their own UI is going to contribute to an open-source version of iOS, because nobody who writes their own UI would ever use iOS; for someone who knows what they are doing, iOS is more of a hinderance than a help.

In this sense, Jolla is (in my opinion) hitting a sweet spot; they've got a very powerful open-source framework (Mer on top of Android using Hybris), and a very user-friendly closed-source interface (Sailfish) on top of it. Open-sourcing Sailfish would be, I think, stupid -- who would spend weeks and months of work tweaking the UI to help a newbie navigate making their first phone call? Open-source advocates don't need something like Sailfish. But they do need something like the Mer infrastructure. I still have hope that Jolla can continue to straddle this divide.

However, I believe that a different UI should be built on top of Mer, a totally open-source UI that focusses instead on functionality and ease of access to features. You can't make a single universal mobile UI, but you can make two opposing UIs on top of a single universal mobile infrastructure. This, I think, is the optimal way forward...

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

I'm not saying they are first. I know n999 was ahead of its time. But it's an extremely useful feature since every app can show many shortcuts and also launch app if a regular tab. It's much faster than pullymenues and folders. The bad thing is that few ups using the potential yet so I don't understand why so few OS implement it.

It's also very useful to in browser at tmo. Can do a sneak peak at thread without loading it browser tab.

Jolla need some strange but cool features like n900.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

I hate to say this... but hackers do not add up to much of a market. Each product hackers have loved has died. Hackers have never truly have amounted to a viable market - especially in regards to what sells the most, what's supported the most and above all... what will survive tomorrow.

Damn straight. High level, let them have a pretty UX. They need it. Low level, give them a terminal and a way to slap any UI the hacker community likes today while maintaining and refining a high level UX that doesn't dictate the low end. Simply stated, know your power users wants/need and the casual users wants/needs.

Amen brother!

Preach on!

Something else can be on top of Mer... it's just that they're quite horrible at the moment and make the product feel incomplete and work like **** once a use case outside of the original scope happens along and discovers holes and gaps in the UI/UX patterns.

I think your other thread Copernicus has altered the way I think in regards to how to deliver and this dual strategy of yours that's now in my rhetoric stems from your way of thinking. Keep sharing and keep talking...

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Yet it was Apple who made loads of cash on iTunes before anyone else woke up and copied the idea.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

I agree. I consider myself reasonably tech-savvy (compared to the average user) and the main reason I was interested in a Jolla phone was TOHKBD.
Was also interested in Ubuntu Edge due to the combination desktop / mobile / Linux. For a new platform or device to succeed you need to do something different, be the best or be the cheapest. I don't think Jolla is succeeding in any of these.
From my pov the Jolla phone without TOHKB is just another phone and this applies even more to the tablet. I also don't get the Sailfish appeal, the only thing that I can think of is 'it can also run android apps'.
I might be missing the point, but in that case the company needs to work on getting the message across.

Very pleased with my N900's though ;)

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Is it time for Nokia and Jolla to reunite?

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

No. * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Where Negatron Dan? He need to tell us why android is awesome and all other OS suck. Anyone got his number?

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Bah... why invoke Danramos? He'll just say something that you'll all disagree with despite it being something that's worthy of second thought.

I liked the dude.

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Correct and what was needed to make it fully usefull was 10% hardware and 90% Software. Now and would have been back then.
More evidence that Nokia lacked a vision to start an effort to put all theyr fine stuff into one killer package.
But we all know that.

What Jolla did wrong was a too euphemistical calculation on market chances. Idealism hit realworld problems and was seemingly not properly reacted to in time and in regards to fair customer relationship.
What happend was they where grinded between wanting to deliver on average joes expectations and our holy principals.

Well, again i hate to say that my "Hackers love apple products" comes from hard evidence.
Welcome to another of my social bubbles:
.
You all know the CCC whichs path i follow since early VC20 childhood. Well the overwhelming majority of CCC members are using apple devices nowadays because linux is still seen as bad substitute to bsd. Most of them will not look at linux until lennart poetering has either fixed it completely or is gunned down to have a good laugh.

Frankly, they already laugh about especially us, still believing in amateurs to be able to do most of the job, instead of humping on the fastest train, taking it over from the inside and have a good time...
They loudly predicted the downfall of nokia 4 years early than we did and have not officially heard of Jolla because the interest in another puny mobil linux couldn't be lesser after meego/tizen failed.

They do not care about apples policys because they hack them away to have the nicest hardware package available and play on the most advanced and well polished system there is at the time.
The influence is obviously so big that apple in return opensourced swift recently to further attract them.
Sure the consumer devices start to lock out hacker interest (only one usb-c, locked down appstore even for desktops, etc...) and a media app of the CCC was recently blocked from the store because of apple scurity related congress talks featured there.
And you should have heard how big the laughter was 5 years ago when the apple watch was rumored first... Now many wear and hack one.

Ah yes and i know most of them appreciate apple taking 10k€ from snobbs for a gold watch to further perfection the os ;)

But why i like to hang out here much more and often is a rather elitist and fatalistic attitude with many of them, the later especially regarding privacy and Apples obvious evilness nowadays.

Aaand i lack the detail knowledge and get horrased if i start to open my mouth over there from time to time :p

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Yeah me too. He had humour and was a true fanboy and never backed down for some truly ridicules unrelated subject :D

Re: What is wrong with Jolla?
 

Oh, we're at "blame Apple" now are we?

What stage of the grief/denial cycle is that?