View Single Post
javispedro's Avatar
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#257
Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Funny how "your point" keeps changing. First your point was that MeeGo was for ARM (which I showed not to be true due to it's roots in Moblin). Then it was that "I said" MeeGo was targeted to x86, until I proved I said no such thing. Now it's that I "knew" about the target...

I find when people keep changing their "point", it's often because they don't have one.
That's funny, cause I find you're doing the same. My main point has been clear since day one. I've used every opportunity I could to put it in clear, bold letters. But every time I've done so you've found a new excuse for why it doesn't matter: firstly, that the number of closed components was similar to Maemo (proven false), then, that Meego's goals were not to make an usable OS (proven false), then, that Meego's main target was not ARM (proven false).... what will come now?

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
It's not. It has a compatibility mode that allows it to emulate that code set rather well, but it's not at all x86. Even the Pentium line from Intel isn't x86 these days, as they've moved from that set to a RISC set. They still have an emulation mode, but it's not x86, and hasn't been for some time.
In case you want to learn something, that's usually called "microcode". Doesn't mean the processor is not x86. /me sighs...


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Nokia had to go fix things upstream, to make Moblin (changing into MeeGo) ready for their slate of upcoming devices. That's exactly what I said. You call that "fixing the upstream kernel", I called it "folding in code to make MeeGo work". Thanks for making my point for me.
Oh, for the sake of god. Nokia _made_ MeeGo. It's not that they had to grab the Moblin kernel and add their stuff as you would like to believe. Nokia was (very, very slowly) putting their patches back into kernel.org. MeeGo's policy is to use upstream components as much as possible. Therefore, they grabbed both Nokia's upstreaming work (which had started way before MeeGo, even in the N8x0 times, from the work of usually single person teams), and Intel's work. And TI's work. And Google's work. You know how this Open Source thing works don't you?


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Btw: Just because a kernel supports compiling to a target, doesn't mean everything in it magically works on that target. Try compiling one of the open ATI drivers for Sparc some time and tell me how that goes.
I did not say it "only supported compiling".

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Who said that? Not me! That was a quote from the MeeGo FAQ! Don't like it? Call MeeGo and tell them to fix their website.
You can do that too, in case you wondered.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Btw: ofono wasn't contributed by Nokia. ofono was a joint project by Intel and Nokia. But then I wouldn't expect you to know that... despite the fact that I've mentioned it twice already.
So if it is a joint project of Intel and Nokia, what part of "contributed by Nokia" is false? Or do you think Intel made all the Nokia-specific ISI backend?

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
And you should be able to tell the difference between a CPU and a computer.

A computer, in common lingo, isn't any random device that happens to have a CPU. Most people wouldn't consider a car alarm or a garage door opener a computer. Yes, it has a micro controller in it. But that doesn't make it a computer. I have a solar powered calculator I bought at the dollar store... it has a micro in it, buried under a wax dot. Would you call that a computer? You'd be laughed at if you did.
I work in CS. Can you tell me exactly why your solar powered calculator doesn't qualify as a computer? Or do you prefer to keep using inexact terms so that you can keep confusing me in every post you make?

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
This is all beside the point that there are far more ARM processors in the world than Intel. And, the fact that you lied about me saying ARM processors are scarce, when I in fact said no such thing.
You said there aren't millions of ARM PCs for developers to debug their code. Despite the fact you're above admitting there are far more ARM processors in the world than Intel.

Before you point it out, obviously, you're not going to debug Meego on your solar based battery calculator. But you should look around a bit more. For example, there have even been free BeagleBoards for Meego developers.


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Yes.. you are... How many new N950 is Nokia going to produce? 0 How many new N900 will Nokia be making? 0 And yes, there will be more N9s, but again, I said "excluding N9, there are no other ARM based processors in the pipeline". So... Again, besides the N9, what other systems have been announced that are going to run MeeGo that are ARM based? There's one platform by LG, a couple by Intel, and a rumor of one by Samsung, and none of them are ARM.

I'm talking about what's in the pipeline (the future) hardware wise. Planned, but as yet unreleased hardware that has been announced, where the company creating it has said they plan on running MeeGo on it.

I'm not talking about what random old hardware MeeGo may or may not choose to try to get itself running on. That's not a pipeline, that's porting (or back porting) at best. Getting MeeGo to run on the Neo1973 doesn't mean it's in the pipeline. It means someone decided to backport something for old hardware they had laying around.
But WHY you assert that? Every _SINGLE_ device for where a MeegoCE project is started means more Meego development which literally means more lifetime for the MeegoCE on your n900. Why is this so hard to understand too? What do you need?


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Yes, as is the iPhone, as is the FreeRunner, as are several other things. What's your point? The BeagleBoard is a hobby project kit. Nobody has turned it into a viable handset, or much else outside of the hobby world.
I thought we were talking about a platform where Meego could be debugged and developed (a role you wrongly assumed only the N900 could fill)? Why it does need to be a "viable handset outside of the hobby world"?


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
By which point, if it can't be emulated in software, good odds it will be so old that there's not much you'll be able to do with it anyway. Assuming it's still running by then.
Bad example. All of it already runs in software.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
I have an ancient 486 based tablet running Win98 at home. It only supports PCMCIA-16, and pre-dates USB. I had a wifi card for it but it only supported open and WEP. I can still use it on an open network, or setup a small sub-netted WEP network and SSH over it. I can still use it for lots of tasks, well over a decade after it was made. It's not my primary device any more, but then I doubt by 2019 my N900 will still be my primary device.
Please note that WPA-TKIP was exactly designed to be usable ON HARDWARE THAT COULD DO WEP. It is one of the reasons it is universally considered weak. So your weak example actually proves my point. Where your driver to be open, you could have implemented a _working_ WPA-TKIP supplicant implementation for your card.

Sadly, it wasn't open. You didn't learn your lesson, seemingly.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
And tell me... if the blob that sits in Maemo doesn't support WPA5, do you really think the blob in MeeGo is going to?
Again you conveniently forget that Meego has MUCH fewer blobs (my main point, remember?). Among other things, the supplicant is entirely open.
Which is why I chose this example! What do you think I am, an idiot?


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Unless that new standard comes out in the next 6 months, and the MeeGo CE folks quickly add support for it before Nokia pulls funding, it won't matter if I'm running Maemo, MeeGo, Android or anything else. A blob is a blob is a blob. And if AT&T buys up TMobil and re-purposes the 3G frequencies, no software in the world is going to get that back. MeeGo can't change the hardware to change the band it tunes to for 3G.
A blob is a blob. Two hundred blob are "too much". Four blobs are manageable. My main point again, heh.


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
I'd love to. Link? I can tell you right now, Nokia didn't target anyone in the US. There was $0 spent on advertising the N900 for the US. Not a single commercial aired for it here. So please, do tell me where this targeting advertisement is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe0rMUoHwyI
Probably you don't remember it.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
I know in London they had a few displays. And there was a commercial made, though I'm not sure it ever made it to anything but YouTube. The N900 was quite solidly targeted at the geek crowd.

Even if it was targeted at "young hipsters", that still doesn't change the point. The "hipsters" it was targeted at would be the ones looking for a more opensource platform that they could tweak to their liking.
Don't redefine my words. Young hipsters was imprecise, ok. But it does not mean opensource lovers for sure.


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
It was not targeted at the generic Nokia phone purchaser.
How come? It was step 5 of 5!


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
What the hell are you talking about? Prototypes of what? Who's talking about prototypes? You've really gone off into the wild on this.

I was (rather clearly) talking about Nokia's motivation to backport MeeGo to the N900. The motivation was two fold: One was to have test platform that specifically was NOT a prototype, something that they knew was solid and worked, and could boot into something besides MeeGo, to reset hardware, or what not.
I am sorry, wouldn't they be able to do that even better on their prototypes with debug dock stations and so on? (Which is why I introduced the topic, in case you didn't notice. That's what Nokia does...)

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
The other was to set it up so that people outside Nokia could work on the project, giving Nokia free labor.
That is a good point. It is after the entire reasoning behind open source, getting "free labor". They could also have chosen the Beagleboard for that. But, as I've said, Nokia was paying, I just find it natural they were to chose a hardware of their own.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
I said absolutely nothing about prototypes. Prototypes are rather useless when trying to debug software, since it's harder to tell sometimes if it's the software that's hosed or the hardware.
See above.


Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
And before you say it, because I know you're going to, yes the N950 release was a prototype release. Tell me, how much good did releasing those hundred or so devices do, vs the backport to the N900. Despite MeeGo CE being near useless, I'm betting there are more community developers testing on the N900 then there are on N950s, even now when nearly every N950 produced has been handed out.
Compare this forum and the Meego one for that. You have the answer in front of your eyes.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Wait... so an oven timer is a computer, but the N810 Internet Tablet from Nokia isn't a tablet?
If you consider the iPad a tablet, then no, I do not believe they compete in the same market segment. But that's a belief. Market data tends to prove me right, though.



Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
You said MeeGo always had ARM support. I quoted two parts of it's FAQ where MeeGo itself said that it was based on the Moblin core, which did not have support for ARM. I also noted that the question of if MeeGo would support ARM was so prevalent that it was addressed specifically in the FAQ. Meaning that it was so asked about, because it wasn't clear at first if MeeGo was going to support ARM (deriving from Moblin), that the project leads specifically put into the FAQ that they did plan on supporting ARM. Why, if it was "always supported" would they put that in the FAQ otherwise?
Ah, reading between the lines eh? I don't do that.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Funny how you claim to know so much about things, but then don't know the basics of where MeeGo spawned from.
I seemingly know them better than you... could probably be because I've been monitoring it since day -1, and all of yours comes from reading a FAQ. You did not even know the number of closed packages in either Meego or Maemo!

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
So, while this has been fun, I'm pretty much done with this. I've proven my points, and said my part. You on the other hand have devolved to using 5-point font for such witty banter as "Ha Ha Ha", laughing at your own ignorance for not knowing that just because a device may be based on a core from another system doesn't mean it's the same thing. (Followed by the hysterical claim that AMD is x86...)
Oh, I've enjoyed it quite much as you can see. I will be always there if you want to continue.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
I'm pretty sure most of the worst of the bunch aren't even MeeGo developers. Javispedro, for example, said he's not using MeeGo and still runs Maemo on his N900. He's never claimed to work on MeeGo that I've seen, and is clearly unfamiliar with it's origins. I'm not sure he's a developer at all, given the inability to follow logic, and his clearly flawed understanding of system architecture. Plus, frankly, most developers I know tend to not lie randomly, and veer off topic with such zeal.
Note that as you can see in this thread, this forum has driven the real developers away. Only trolls (like me) remain. But keep believing that the community you are scaring away with your weird requirements will save you. You'll see how much you last.



And remember that my main point has always been. The fact that there's a reduced number of closed packages MATTERS. I am yet to see any valid argumentation for why it does NOT. Feel free to put some other incidental argument about why Meego sucks or something else. I'll reply for the fun of it. But my point remains.

Last edited by javispedro; 2011-09-08 at 04:55.
 

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to javispedro For This Useful Post: