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Benson's Avatar
Posts: 4,930 | Thanked: 2,272 times | Joined on Oct 2007
#20
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
IMO there isn't much discussion necessary. All the information is already outlined on Wikipedia articles.

Democracy is the system where a number of people (in this case the eligeble people are outlined by Nokia) elect from a list of candidates (in this case selected by a rule as outlined by Nokia); the winners will represent the people who are under their reign (NOT only those who voted for you; seems to be a missconception...). Between these 2 groups of voters and candidates we want the procedure to be as democratic as possible so that the people who choose are the best represented. That is the goal of democracy which current governments are by far not able to reach because of insincere and strategic voting. Democracy is not a 1 or a 0 despite what some might want you to believe.
Now when I looked at the Wikipedia article most relevant, I came up with:
'Democracy' is a form of government in which the supreme power is held completely by the people under a free electoral system.
Quality of representation, or who gets what degree of representation, are not criteria for that definition, or any other I've seen, for democracy. Indeed, your description explicitly rejects certain types of democracy, e.g. direct democracy.
(Also, if you want the winners to effectively represent the whole rather than the majority, I'd expect you to support Borda or similar; it may be said that Borda is to Condorcet as median is to mean.)
On the Internet we have the opportunity to implement a better system than Pluratity. Lets make use of this.
Agreed, though I believe you meant plurality, which isn't even quite what we have. But the definition of 'better' for an electoral system is not inherent in the word democracy, nor is it even well agreed-on.

If you want to touch on the subject of complexity, by all means, quote me on Condorcet. Its the only reasonable argument against Condorcet I can think of. Approval is not complex at all compared to Plurarity.

Example:
lardman: YES
Karel Jansens: YES
Reggie: YES
allnameswereout: ABSTAIN

Means lardman, Karel Jansens, Reggie get +1 and allnameswereout gets +0. Count 'em all up, highest score wins. I'm pretty sure the entire world is able to say yes or no when asked. With Approval, in the US, the Democrats and Republicans might actually gain some competition during the elections. Competition is good...
It's simple enough, to be sure; but while the alleged complexity of other voting systems is an obstacle in changing government elections, I think it's no problem for us.
Condorcet is much more democratic. Its used by communities such as Debian for long time now. Open source tools to calculate the outcome are available. You can find all kind of examples on Condorcet, preferably with SSD as underlying ruleset to solve the maths. They're using a CLI utility which outputs the mathematics which are then posted on mailing list but IIRC theres even GUIs available.
I don't see that it's much more democratic, or that the differences boil down to "more democratic"; I think what we should be after are fair (which all systems under consideration are), transparent, and safe to game*, and appropriate to the type of election.
Myself, I prefer range voting; but I don't see that any of these is appropriate for a group of at-large seats like this. (Actually, if we had one less candidate, it would be a single-seat elimination! ) For my part, though, I haven't done as much reading on the multi-seat election styles; I've a strong revulsion for the party-based systems, but am undecided between cumulative and single-transferable-vote. Still, the single-nontransferable-vote scheme used here isn't that bad, IMHO; it's better than the plurality-at-large system used for local elections in my state. (At this point, it really doesn't matter, because there are no obvious parties, but it's better to avoid that in principle.)

Heres some Condorcet insights and compares http://rangevoting.org/EMorg/indx.html
Not impressive; their claims regarding the states' rights argument for the electoral college are weak, they promote government intervention in primaries, and they make no discussion (that I saw) of the strongest other contender, range voting.

You see, there's plenty of room for argument here, and claiming that one solution is the best on such virtues as "most democratic" aren't particularly persuasive; a discussion on this would be better served by discussing concrete advantages and disadvantages.


*By safe, I mean that since we cannot eliminate tactical voting and strategic nomination, AKA gaming the system (Gibbard-Satterthwaite), we should assume it, and not choose a system like IRV which is 'twitchy' to changes, and hard to game effectively. It should be robust so that voters using a reasonably good estimate of candidates' chances will give a nearly 'fair' winner, rather than a grossly distorted one.

Last edited by Benson; 2008-09-05 at 23:42.