Thread: Fennec Alpha 1
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allnameswereout's Avatar
Posts: 3,397 | Thanked: 1,212 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands
#87
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
This plague started only recently and breaks the web.
Its been going on ever since day 1. Some pages were still in HTML 3.2. We had WAP indeed. We had JS and Flash while many were still in dial-up. That too, broke the web. There is no 1 web. There is no 1-size-fits-all.

Established web technology offers enough mechanisms to detect the capabilities of a browser/device and deliver content accordingly.
How are you able to detect my available up and downstream?

Putting "mobile" versions off to their own domains is a little bit like WAP.
The content matters. The content is similar or the same. (Some heavy bandwidth stuff is left out). The layout is indeed different. If I go to http://m.lifehacker.com on GPRS it will load pretty quick. If I go to http://www.lifehacker.com on GPRS I'll have fun waiting given it'll be 1+ MB download. On UMTS the latter will load relatively slowly. Not to mention the former is sweeter for my mobile device. It'd actually allow me to have a few tabs and applications open.

What are the "pros and cons" of a "mobile device"? Comparing my three cell phones and the tablet (all of which are mobile devices), they don't have a lot in common.
I outlined some in my previous post, but I don't think you want to see these points. They have tons of things in common especially when comparing them with desktops and laptops. They're all running a RISC processor, probably all ARM. They all have a relatively small screen. Yeah, they don't all have the same screen size and same hardware buttons and perhaps even same OS. That is why something like Java is so useful on such OSes. And why porting is such a huge effort. There are ofcourse differences in a touchscreen mobile device and a non-touchscreen mobile device.

Also, how would working on a mobile keep my brain from thinking "Hey, the bottom of this page doesn't render correctly, go look at the HTML source to find that one link you're looking for"?
Normal users (the goal of RX-51 and Fennec) don't have this strange obsession. They just want to look something up on the web. When it looks odd, they might start to wonder.

For them your feature would be bloat just like e.g. kinetic scrolling is bloat for you. One could however add this functionality in an extension. For example a so-called web developer extension.

It would be one more item in a sub-menu; how could it make a UI more complicated?
Which sub-menu?

And if I want to examine the source of a boken page, why would I want to wait the whole weekend until I return to my desktop? I bought a mobile device so I wouldn't need to return to my desktop for such tasks!
Well, thats what rdesktop et al is for. Or you could load it up in a HTML editor. With syntax highlighting and such. Ofcourse, you would want to make me believe such features should all be included in a browser made for end-users.

The assumption that people "simply don't do" things on "mobile devices" isn't logical. So the idea to strip away functionality from a mobile browser isn't, either.
Right, so you actually are a huge fan of Flash banners on your mobile device so you can torture your battery life? I for one, am not.

Sometimes less is more. Some people collect stamps. They wouldn't toss any stamp away. Most people don't collect stamps. Most people toss away things they don't use. Only some oddballs tend to keep everything they might need forever. And their house is a gigantic mess.

I can't seem to explain this to you. You don't seem to want to understand.

And, I feel sorry for you, because this is what mobile devices will move towards. They will adapt to 1) the hardware (which, like I said, has pros and cons) 2) what users want to run on it. I'm pretty sure that if there are going to be web developers who run Fennec and who'd like to view source code on their mobile device, they will make it easily work. However, I believe they'll be far better off with a 3rd party text editor or text viewer with kinetic scrolling and syntax highlighting. And those are usually not part of the web browser. Not even on the desktop.

You don't design a user interface by not offering anything that would need a user interface in the first place.
True, but you need to focus on what the user wants to interface with.

If I browse to http://www.nu.nl for news I don't want a shitty Flash banner. I don't want to download a 1 MB Flash movie about the latest car while downloading the page. I want to see the headlines and being able to easily click on them, and zooming in on (certain) text. Thats what I want. Cause I want to read the news. I don't want to view the source code of the page to verify its W3C compliant.

Say you are using N810 and select an input box (for example to type URL). There are some likely things the user wants to do:

1) Remove a part of the URL
2) Remove whole URL and fill in new
3) Use http://
4) Insert URL

For option #1 you have in Safari mobile a small looking glass which allows you to easily select the part of the URL you want to edit. Because you're on a small screen this is useful on the device. On a desktop or laptop this feature would be utter nonsense. Except for disabled people. But they are a minority, an exception. The OS doesn't assume the user is disabled. (The OS won't assume the user is a web developer either...)

For option #2 you would select the whole URL on Maemo and then delete it using del or right click -> Delete. In Safari mobile you click once on the URL to select it, and then you press the X on the right of the URL to remove it. Simple, yet brilliant. Often used.

For option #3 all modern browsers assume http:// as default protocol. Small feature, but it saves you some typing.

For option #4 on a N810 with a slided out keyboard you would not want the virtual keyboard (a mobile-only feature which would be BS in standard desktop browser) but on a N800 you would want this unless you have a keyboard attached to it. For this, the N800 must know if it has a keyboard attached (HAL does this).

That's not designing a user interface, that's not accepting the challenge. (Like: Want to improve the UI for MS Office? Oh yes, just remove all functions except "File|Open" and "File|Save". Great! Such a simple, easy to use interface!)
If all you have to do is reading documents such as .xls and .doc that'd be more than enough functionality.

I know. In my wording, though, a "beta" is supporsed to be more or less feature complete, at least the UI and the overall look&feel should be. Otherwise there'd be no point in testing.
Well, for end users it is feature complete for a 1.0, but if you would have looked at the roadmap you'd know its pretty long. Just like milestones of the old (such as Mozilla M17) were beta and such they at least allowed us UNIX users a browser for our desktop back in the days. Now we need a Gecko competitor for Safari mobile...

PS: Virtual keyboards suck IMO. I'd rather use a good hardware keyboard on the device. Even if the buttons are small the typing is much more efficient on such. This is clearly something users have different opinions about. That is why there is several choices in this aspect, in the form of different devices.
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