....certainly for 95% of people the cloned item itself (which was copied, not stolen) is the end goal, whereas in the card cloning analogy the cloned item (which was also copied, not stolen) was cloned with a further purpose in mind, ie enabling theft of money. There's no justification for piracy and saying "well it's not stealing" doesn't defend it, but in a factual sense it *isnt* stealing, and people consistently trying to hammer the piracy argument by saying that it is are tiresome