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Posts: 16 | Thanked: 1 time | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Paris, France
#309
Originally Posted by CrashandDie View Post
The fundamental issue at hand here is that it may be your opinion that piracy isn't piracy, that commercial software and digital copies are inherently worthless, but it's nothing more than just that: your opinion. Having an opinion doesn't entitle you to anything.
I never said that piracy isn't piracy. I said, as others did, that piracy is not theft. I said for instance that according to me, piracy is illegal gift. I never said commercial software is inherently worthless. What I said is that its value is difficult to convert into price. Value and price are two very different things. Value is not necessary commercial value. I've given many examples.

The laws are there, and there's more than one reason to have them.
I am not convinced by those reasons, that's all. Now, law is law, so I will conform to it. But I have the right to say what I think about it, and to vote against it if I can.

Our current economical system is based on money. Sad, but true. People need money to survive. Worse yet, people need money to live. It's not a basic requirement, it's not a detail, it's the basis of western civilisation.
I very much doubt that if software industry was to vanish, all these people will suddenly become jobless and miserable. I believe in Schumpeterian concept of creative destruction, so I don't think it would be a problem for them.

A bridge is indeed a a construction which "provide a desirable function that reduces time or effort in crossing a natural obstacle", but it can also be seen as a work of art, some bridges are mind boggling, masterpieces. And guess what? You have to pay a toll for a lot of bridges in order to cross them; especially when the convenience factor (also called luxury) is its main advantage.
Well, in my all life, I've crossed many bridges, and I have never ever paid.

However, I feel we're drifting very far away from the initial subject (and on a sidenote, man, dude, you have waaaayyy too much time on your hands to be guarding a thread this much). I would have liked to see this thread move in a positive manner, but as usual it's the same story, one guy versus the rest of the world, recycling the same arguments over and over, and bringing really, nothing, utterly nothing new to the table.
This seems unfair. Many times I've given other examples, and developed different aspects of the pb. Copy vs counterfeiting, price vs value, intellectual ownership vs intellectual paternity, costs of production vs costs of diffusion, price elaboration mechanisms, and so on...

The point I wanted to bring across in my first few paragraphs was that people need money to live, but not everyone can be doing the same thing. Some people get next to nothing to be working in a factory day in, day out. Some people get paid massive amounts of money to wiggle their *** and pretend to be singing in front of a massive audience.

And guess what? The latter are there *because* of the former. Not thanks to, because of. This is something that is very, very important to grasp. Celebrities are celebrities because people pay attention to them. If they didn't, they'd just be another person on Earth. Whether you feel uncomfortable about that is not the issue, and you shouldn't deflect on piracy and copyright because you feel there is an issue with society (because that's what this is starting to sound like).
I don't get your point here.

I did quite like the turn when mmurfin87 started to think in terms of functional value rather than exact value. If you look at the exact value of a painting, its pure worth in terms of materials, sure, it's not much. But value is made of so much more than the basic building blocks -- this is the foundation of our whole world; I just can't fathom you don't realise this.
I did not say that the value of a product was the sum of the value of its component. I don't know where you've read that.

The building blocks that compose an application is code, or lines of code to be precise. A line of code, on its own, is usually quite useless, however if you have a few hundred thousands lines of code, and have a few architects that make it efficient, and designers who make it appealing to the eye, you suddenly obtain something which has a huge amount of value. How it is stored doesn't matter. How much the developers get paid doesn't really matter either. It's the whole package which holds the value, and it is only that package you pay for.
Again, you mix up value and price. A code may have a lot of value, and indeed much more than the sum of its lines. But just as poem is more valuable than its words or a theorem more valuable than the axioms. But when I use Pythagoras theorem, or when I think about "la cigale et la fourmi", I don't have to worry about whom I will have to pay license fees to.

I'd also like to point out that you are oversimplifying things, and not setting up a disclaimer for it. Some applications cost $1, others cost a few thousand. I am a consultant for an application for which the contracts rarely have less than a million written on them. Is each developer entitled to a straight cut of that? Of course not. Because developers are far from the only ones that help build an application.
And not a single person in all of those I have listed will ever touch a line of code; but they still need to be paid. For most companies, the Engineering team will represent tops 1/3 of the headcount.

[...]

Selling a product over and over keeps a company in business. The price point at which they sell the product is usually way below anything that it has actually cost to produce. A product like Photoshop or Lightroom requires investments in the order of millions. Yet you can buy it for a fraction of that. How come? Because they sell it multiple times.
Yeah indeed that's a lot of people. And all of them work in order to fit in the software retail industry paradigm. But once you question the very existence of this paradigm, everything change.

Well, obviously, at some point they make a profit, and in some cases they even make a massive profit, but so what? Where's the problem with that? What alternatives would we have?
I've already said that making profits is absolutely not the pb. I'm liberal and I have no objections about people making money, as long as they do that with market forces, and not thanks to the intervention of law.

Everyone paying a fair share of what the product actually cost to produce, plus a little rounding up so everyone feels ok? Yeah, why not. But the product would never sell.
Production costs are not everything. That's the all point of my intervention.

If you told people: "If everyone buys this product, right now, at this very instant, it will cost you $1. If you don't, this company and the 300 workers are without a job.".
Nobody would buy.

Being without a job doesn't have to be permanent. Those people won't lose their arms or their brain. They still are the same person and can find an other job. This is Schumpeter again.

I'll read these links, this seems interesting. Thanks.