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Posts: 124 | Thanked: 105 times | Joined on Jul 2010
#374
Debate continuing from wifi driver thread:

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Way to pick semantics. My point was that the creator gets to offer his work for the price of their choosing. By pirating, you remove that right by paying nothing.
No, the creator still has a right to ask a price of their choosing. I can choose not to pay it however.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post


I'd bet that book stores and the author or the work would say otherwise. In fact, Google had just this issue with scanning books, was taken to court over it, and would have lost (which is why they settled for a huge fine out of court). Legally, it is stealing.
Perhaps you're unaware, but there are places called libraries that have books for free, where they can be read, and the author doesn't get a dime. If I borrow a book or a CD from a friend then that is ok, while the creator still doesn't get paid.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post

And that's where you're wrong. If you were right, hookers would be free. They're not. They're paid for their work, since they technically sell no tangible product outside of "beauty or performance".
That doesn't make any sense. Hookers provide a (valuable :P) service. They have to provide it separately and uniquely to every john, so they get paid for every instance. The pleasure a hooker provides can't be copied from one person to others. (Unless they like to watch:P) Software, on the other hand, can be.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Value can be influenced by supply and demand, but neither is the predictor or creator of value. Value is place by the creator of a good, and the market reacts accordingly. If the value is too low, there's a run on the supply until demand is met or supply is exhausted, which then drives up the value in resale. If the value is to high, pent up demand exists and a market for a competitor is formed.

At no point does supply and demand itself set the value. Nor at any time does those in the demand side get to choose the value of the supply. Their choice is weather or not to purchase from the supply for the cost set by the one offering the good. Simply taking the good without paying any cost for an item that has a value set on it is called theft.
So by that rationale I can put up my 1980 Pinto for sale for $1M, and then I have a $1M-worth Pinto? Try going into a bank to get a loan secured by your car or house. I'm pretty sure they won't be going by the value that *you* put on those things.

The bottom line is that I'm not taking a good. Theft requires a change of possession/location/control of a good, and there is none in piracy. It's like me owning a vase, a teapot, and bowl. I can put those objects in my house wherever I want and however I want. I also own my computer, I own it's hard disk, and all those millions of ferromagnetic particles that it uses to store data, I own those too. And thus I can arrange them in whatever way I want. Saying that I can't arrange my hard disk however I want is exactly like you coming over and saying I can't put my teapot on a shelf between the vase and bowl, because you had those items arranged that same way first.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post

And how exactly do artists eat? If people don't pay for beauty or work as you stated above, how would artists make a living? How would programmers making "customized applications" make money? After making sad application, it's intangible and there for free, isn't it? Your whole premise is contradicted by your own statement here, since you're talking about someone paying for a custom application, or providing support, which are both forms of work.
It's up to them to figure a way to eat. What I provided are some examples. I'm not contradicting anything. It's like the lawn mowing example I used earlier. If someone does work for you out of the blue they have no right to be paid, even if you find it useful. If you agree prior to starting the work that there will be payment, then that's how they eat.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post

Maybe it's not "my philosophy" that need questioning here, but yours. You just detailed two instances of where someone should be paid for their work. Why is it ok to pay for work sometimes, and not at others? How do you decide which work is valid and should be paid for and which isn't? It's clearly not the tangibility of the goods (as you've already stated), since there is nothing tangible when it comes to support or programs (no matter how custom they are).
Work that should be paid is work that was agreed to be paid for. It is wise to obtain this agreement before the work is started. If someone creates a work without such agreement, they have to assume the risk that nobody will want to pay for it.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post

So by your definition, murder isn't wrong as long as you murder people that you think it's ok to kill, and that can't afford lawyers (or at least who's surviving relatives can't afford them). Nice morals and legal system you have there. Remind me to never visit you.
?? Quite the jump there, not sure how you did that one.