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gerbick
2011-07-13 , 19:23
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#71
Originally Posted by erendorn View Post
I don't really disagree, but still, I think selling is an active and costly process.
So is not selling a good thing? Think about that before you answer.

If selling something is an activity that you don't want to engage, then you don't release it then. Selling is an activity that any business that wants to sell an item and make money from it. The development, support, et al costs money, but last I checked, Nokia knows how to make money from selling hardware.

Selling the first devices is free, because there are curious people (or stupid one, if your device is really crap).
Then if you want to sell more, you need to spend on marketing, with convex costs. So there is always a point when you don't want to sell more (you can still wish you would sell more, though).
That's where management of resources comes into play. Yet again, you're making common sense, but not business sense. I'd love to hear (besides razor blades and videogame systems) a retailer that sales at a loss by not selling a few million because it's an "activity" that they have to engage, because they "can" or think they should never sell to millions and still have a viable release. Maemo isn't a limited edition release. Why treat it as such?

And why have rhetoric that you intend on it becoming a consumer device if you never wanted any iteration of it before the final step 5 of 5 to be sold in millions.

Makes no ****ing sense. It's that kind of mentality that's driven the stock prices down, made this website more of a cult than niche and ultimately has sealed the destiny of the N9 - it'll sell only as well, if not slightly better than any iteration before it. And that's not enough to save it.

So yeah... continue to think that it not selling in millions was "smart" or the right way to go. Come back next year when you see those decisions affect this site, other developers and how it's driven the Nokia stock to a new low.

Seriously... makes no sense. Stupidest thing I've read all day.

So it really depends on if you understand "wanting" as "wishing" or "intending".
Neither. Every company I know that's not a charity wants their stuff to sell in the millions. If the N900 and other Maemo devices were not intended to sell by the millions, then you've identified the problem.

****ed up management, ****ed up mentality around how you should/shouldn't sell something, ****ed up mentality of the users.

Seriously ****ed up.
 

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gerbick
2011-07-13 , 19:25
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#72
Originally Posted by misterc View Post
Seriously!
Silence. You're the one thanking folks that agree that it wasn't supposed to sell millions.

I bet the board of directors liked that idea too.
 
zlatokosi is offline zlatokosi
2011-07-13 , 19:46
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#73
Originally Posted by lma View Post
I'm still fine doing that, and actually like having the cellular radio on a separate battery, so the real computer is still functional even if the connectivity is out of juice. I admit I don't need cellular voice at all though.

May I point you to: It is not a cell phone -- and it is good

I found a huge difference. Priority was given to making it "finger friendly" and "optimised for one-handed use" to the detriment of everything else. Input methods in particular were completely massacred to accommodate this. Then there's "kinetic" scrolling versus scrollbars, the way many apps / widgets stopped showing a lot of relevant information in order to make all remaining UI elements "thumbable" (which raises the question, what's the 800x480 resolution for?) etc.

The other side of this is the hardware, An N8x0 might be a bit large to hold to your ear, but I found the N900's screen way too small to use comfortably (and the size made all of the above worse). And the third side is that that little radio tends to turn everyone into control freaks. If putting a cellular modem into the N900 means the user has to put up with cherry or the SIM deciding which wifi channels can be seen, I'd rather not have it thank you very much.
I agree with everything you said above, except for carrying around two devices (and that is a personal preference anyway). The software side doesn't bother me so much (although you are 100% correct there, and I had't really noticed it until you pointed it out), but the screen size does. I still remember unboxing my N900 and going WTF at the screen size. It's one thing to read specs and another to hold it in your hands...
 
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qwazix is offline qwazix
2011-07-13 , 20:01
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#74
Remember all those threads around here about no MMS? About no portrait mode? Everybody that would happily buy it bought it, that was a gain for nokia. But anyone else maybe was even a loss for nokia. It wasn't ready for mass consmption, they didnt want it to be marketed as the iphone killer. They did not even give it to the carriers for subsidy here in Greece even if there was specific greek version. Moreover it was cheaper than N97 every month of their coexistence.

They didn't want it to sell millions even if you think it's a corporate mistake. And for me it wasn't. It's the same reason that even if I adore this device I can't recommend it to anyone but programmers.

There is more about sales than sheer profit. It's brand loyalty, image, support etc. Why no mainstream device comes with root in the repos (market, appstore etc) because they don't want to have folks who did rm -rf /* flocking to the nearest nokia care. If it was a mass market device we wouldnt be having this conversation now.
 
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erendorn is offline erendorn
2011-07-13 , 20:17
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#75
It's not common sense it's micro economics.

Sorry, but projects are set for an intended volume.
Because if you want to sell more then you need, among other:
- more advertising
- more machines and factories set up for the product at launch
- more formation for repair centers
- longer support because of brand image more at stake
and so on.

These costs increase faster than sales volumes.
But you can always sell more. Sure.
So if (as you say) companies always want to sell more, they can increase the sales up to the point where they lose money.
If loosing money is perfect business sense for you, I think we can end this discussion here.
Last edited by erendorn; 2011-07-13 at 20:23.
 

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misterc is offline misterc
2011-07-13 , 21:01
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#76
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Silence. You're the one thanking folks that agree that it wasn't supposed to sell millions.

I bet the board of directors liked that idea too.
no they didn't indeed.
alas
but as erendorn pointed out, there are economic factors more complicated then mere "economies of scales" involved in selling a product.
and supply versus demand isn't just a matter of lowering the price (or making buyers willing to pay a higher price) neither.
even though until recently the mere fact of having NOKIA written on it was premium enough to warrant one >¦-)

neither Maemo and not even MeeGo are (or ever were) ready for consumers.
like it or not
NOKIA's management may have been an indecisive bunch but they would have pushed the MIDs out to the masses (just like they did push the 7710) if they had the feeling they were ready.
actually they did, but the mere fact the none of the N900's predecessors had a SIM made them unattractive. not only to consumers but also to providers, as it wasn't possible to milk the customers on their broadband consumption.
i would have bought a 770 (instead of a 7710) and a N8x0 (instead of the N95) if they had had one and i'm sure many of the 9000 series aficionados would have made the step too.
trying to argue that having a MID in one pocket and a dumb phone in the other is the solution is total rubbish; a MID without SIM is useless to ppl minimally on the move
when the N900 came out, i made the step, but many former 9000 fans had switched to other smart phones by then
 
momcilo is offline momcilo
2011-07-13 , 22:02
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#77
Originally Posted by misterc View Post
no they didn't indeed.
alas
but as erendorn pointed out, there are economic factors more complicated then mere "economies of scales" involved in selling a product.
and supply versus demand isn't just a matter of lowering the price (or making buyers willing to pay a higher price) neither.
even though until recently the mere fact of having NOKIA written on it was premium enough to warrant one >¦-)

neither Maemo and not even MeeGo are (or ever were) ready for consumers.
like it or not
NOKIA's management may have been an indecisive bunch but they would have pushed the MIDs out to the masses (just like they did push the 7710) if they had the feeling they were ready.
actually they did, but the mere fact the none of the N900's predecessors had a SIM made them unattractive. not only to consumers but also to providers, as it wasn't possible to milk the customers on their broadband consumption.
i would have bought a 770 (instead of a 7710) and a N8x0 (instead of the N95) if they had had one and i'm sure many of the 9000 series aficionados would have made the step too.
trying to argue that having a MID in one pocket and a dumb phone in the other is the solution is total rubbish; a MID without SIM is useless to ppl minimally on the move
when the N900 came out, i made the step, but many former 9000 fans had switched to other smart phones by then
Another personal reason: I like having two separate devices. One that will act always as phone (dumb!), another to handle more demanding tasks. I can accept the fact that the second one will discharge the battery within one or two days of use, but having to charge a cell phone each and every day is not very practical. Yeah, I now bring another battery, in fact how about pocket-size nuclear reactor?
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kingoddball is offline kingoddball
2011-07-13 , 22:17
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#78
As long as Nokia are smart enough to release ONE good meego phone for we the nerds, then whatever happens, happens.

Just release the N950 to please use maemo users. Then bow out of the scene you dinosaurs!

What company makes a KICKASS phone like the N950 and DOES NOT release it!? *****S!

Enjoy bankruptcy or becoming Nokia - A subsidiary company of Microsoft!

The next N-Gage could become the Xbox Portable! (Hey! Good Ideas!)
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qwazix is offline qwazix
2011-07-13 , 22:31
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#79
Originally Posted by momcilo View Post
Another personal reason: I like having two separate devices. One that will act always as phone (dumb!), another to handle more demanding tasks. I can accept the fact that the second one will discharge the battery within one or two days of use, but having to charge a cell phone each and every day is not very practical. Yeah, I now bring another battery, in fact how about pocket-size nuclear reactor?
I do carry 2 devices too but I want them to have a sim both of them. Tethering from one to the other is too cumbersome and drains both batteries. On the other hand I don't really care if my N900 runs out of juice, as I have the other device to make calls with.
 

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misterc is offline misterc
2011-07-13 , 23:09
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#80
Originally Posted by momcilo View Post
Another personal reason: I like having two separate devices. One that will act always as phone (dumb!), another to handle more demanding tasks. I can accept the fact that the second one will discharge the battery within one or two days of use, but having to charge a cell phone each and every day is not very practical. Yeah, I now bring another battery, in fact how about pocket-size nuclear reactor?
if you don't mind using your pocket computer as a dumb media player whenever not @ home, in the office or in a public library (that happens to provide wi-fi), sure, why not...
otherwise, sorry, no go

ps: i usually carry a 1208 (powered off, with a 2nd SIM of a dual-sim) in a pocket, so that if the N900 goes south, well, @ least i still have the phone.
when push comes to shove, i have to be able to make & receive calls, plain & dumb.
 
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