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Poll: Should MeeGo devs inform maemo.org users through talk.maemo.org?
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Should MeeGo devs inform maemo.org users through talk.maemo.org?

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woody14619 is offline woody14619
2011-09-01 , 02:19
Posts: 1,455 | Thanked: 3,309 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY
#221
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
Search thread for "wasted"...
I did. I found one QUALIFIED post, where I said:

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
If the N900 is never going to run on MeeGo as primary OS, via a simple update/reflash procedure for common people, then it's wasted effort.
You did note you were a programmer, right? Did you not notice the conditional?

You're saying that MeeGo CE is going to become a primary OS for common people, are you not? Your claim is that at some point, because it's "more open", that all remaining N900 users will have little recourse but to migrate to it, because it's a wonderful thing, and "more future proof". For the community at large to do that, means it will get to a simple update/reflash level.

But lets look at the other side, shall we? What if MeeGo (CE or in general) never runs as a stable, usable system on the N900? What if there's never a viable image available that standard users can reflash their device with? What if MeeGo never makes it into a viable product, and none of the drivers being built for the N900 are used, or integrated up stream? What would you call the effort and time put into it? And how important would MeeGo's being "more open" be then?

Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
Because it's not changed. For example, Wi-Fi on Meego has always worked without closed blobs. The issue is the MAC address and the regulatory stuff, which require access to the CAL partition -- another part that despite being several open reimplementations Meego for the N900 still uses the Nokia blob (someone tell me why?).
Wait... Which is it? It's always worked without the blobs... but couldn't get it's own MAC address... so it still uses the blobs? Is there any wonder there's confusion?

Btw: The MeeGo bugtracker would disagree with your assertion that it was all happy, and in the open driver all along. In fact, even in the Summer Release version(s) wifi had some pretty major issues. Not being able to stay connected, not connecting to some apns at all, not always seeing the hardware at startup... I'd hardly call that "working".

Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
One will stagnate. The other might not.
Both will eventually stagnate. Even if MeeGo has some miracle release and becomes the next Android, MeeGo CE will eventually not be able to keep up, and will stagnate. That's the nature of things. Again, we're talking about an OS that's primarily targeted at non-ARM processors, using binary blobs, back ported to a device that was never promised to work on it. Call me a skeptic, but it didn't start out with good chances, and it's not progressed enough to change that from what I've seen.

Personally, I don't think MeeGo (or MeeGo CE) is going to get much farther than it already has. It's running out of time and energy, and by the end of the year Nokia will likely shift to the N9 for MeeGo development. At that point MeeGo CE will spiral faster than a kite in a tornado, still not be as functional as Maemo, and Maemo will still be here. In 3 years we'll be talking about some other new project for some other new half-baked platform, and someone will reference MeeGo as the 2010 version of the ofono project. (Interesting silence on that point btw...)

If MeeGo makes it, great. Tell me when it can be used as a day-to-day system like my Maemo system has been able to do for almost 3 years. But don't tell me or others that developing for Maemo is a waste of time because it too closed and/or stagnating. Especially when the horse your backing just recently left the gate and is only now starting to trot a little bit while mine is half way across the field and still running strong.
 

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abill_uk is offline abill_uk
2011-09-01 , 02:33
Banned | Posts: 3,412 | Thanked: 1,043 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#222
Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
If MeeGo makes it, great. Tell me when it can be used as a day-to-day system like my Maemo system has been able to do for almost 3 years. But don't tell me or others that developing for Maemo is a waste of time because it too closed and/or stagnating. Especially when the horse your backing just recently left the gate and is only now starting to trot a little bit while mine is half way across the field and still running strong.
Your wasting your time and effort to talk to these so called developers because they only want to see it from there point if view.

It seems none of them will listen as they do not seem to see past there own front door.

The development "team" for the N900 adaption is useless and they should give it up and get back to Maemo in my opinion IF they are not prepared to listen to the many of us telling them MEEGO is just not usable as an os like Maemo is.
 
gerbick
2011-09-01 , 04:10
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#223
MeeGo CE is much like the prior HE (hacker editions) that preceded the community edition. It's for devs and the adventurous for the most part.

Doubtful it will ever be refined enough to call a daily use OS.
 

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tekki is offline tekki
2011-09-01 , 04:36
Posts: 60 | Thanked: 198 times | Joined on Aug 2011 @ Radical Realistic Open Source with JFDI instead of Bikeshedding
#224
Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Btw: When the previous discussion on "more open" was held was frankly the last time I looked at Meego. At that time, there were no "open" components for GSM, wifi, and a number of other components. If that's changed in the past couple months, great.
Just to make it clear what I'm talking about, MeeGo platform does not rely on any closed source components, the hardware adaptation specific to N900 does. I'm not trying to convince you either way, just presenting fact - and you can refer to this in your own arguments.

You seem like a reasonable person so here's the list of what is closed in the summer release to put facts straight, but redistributable binaries you can verify here, also includes some intel stuff.

This is hardware adaptation, so I'm not going to highlight any part of UI or Platform of it's openness:

* bcm-bt-firmware, BT chip redistributable firmware (doesn't change)
* bme-rx-51, battery management
* support libraries for CAL access, PPU
* wl1251 firmware + calibration tools
* SGX 3d chip userland drivers, but open Xorg driver
* Extra algorithms and codecs for better audio quality in calls

In CE specifically they also add:

* Extra camera functionality, such as autofocus and other stuff
* (A)GPS stack, exposed through liblocation

What is -not- closed:
* Kernel or kernel modules
* Ofono telephony stack + phonecalls on a PulseAudio stack (but quality suffers compares to what is achievable with extra algorithms)
* Basic camera functionality
* Policy framework + settings
* etc.

You can probably help documenting this on wiki - the team seems to have been too busy actually making things work than to document :P
Last edited by tekki; 2011-09-01 at 04:44.
 

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tekki is offline tekki
2011-09-01 , 05:00
Posts: 60 | Thanked: 198 times | Joined on Aug 2011 @ Radical Realistic Open Source with JFDI instead of Bikeshedding
#225
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
MeeGo CE is much like the prior HE (hacker editions) that preceded the community edition. It's for devs and the adventurous for the most part.

Doubtful it will ever be refined enough to call a daily use OS.
I agree with the adventurous part, even though that label is sometimes applied to everyone who touches a flasher at some point.

I'd like to know - what's your criteria (or anyone's) for daily use OS? (And don't say feature parity, because Fremantle goes up and beyond daily usage). I find it valuable to acquire requirements from stakeholders.

We tried to define basic daily usage features for the community edition work and I'd like to know how aligned that is with your wishes.

Cellular voice calls (Dialer, People)

Make voice calls (input number directly, initiate from Contacts, initiate from Call history)
Receive calls
Default ringtone plays
Volume control works via System UI
SIM PIN entry support

SMS (SMS, People)

Send new SMS (input number, send from Contacts)
Receive SMS, and reply to sender

Browser use over WLAN (Browser, Settings)

Able to connect to WLAN AP (with security etc.)
Open a complex modern website (eg. gmail.com)

Camera (meegocamera)

Still image capture
Support for N900 keys (zoom, capture)
Common SW (Settings, xterm, lock)

Common components such as System UI, Home screen etc. shall be made functional so that basic device usage is smooth and fast. N900 device specific features such as keys, display and battery will be optimized. MeeGo SDK fully supports this edition, as it is MeeGo 1.2 compliant.
Last edited by tekki; 2011-09-01 at 05:03.
 

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Joorin is offline Joorin
2011-09-01 , 05:08
Posts: 726 | Thanked: 345 times | Joined on Apr 2010 @ Sweden
#226
Originally Posted by abill_uk View Post
With all due respect joorin you need to look at the whole mess from start to now and then look at what has actually been achieved, THEN you will see just what progress has actually been made over that period.
After reading this thread, I think I've gotten enough information to get a very high level overview of how the MeeGo development has changed over time.

But, how I view it has nothing to do with your statement about the development being "slow going". At all. I can't agree with you about this with less than that you do what I asked you to: back up your opinion with reasons other than "I think so." and we can talk about it.

If you lot were paid developers for Meego i would sack the lot of you simple as that and i do not mince my words here !.
If you can't back your managerial decision with more than an opinion, that it's "slow going", you're a really really really bad manager.

But, since you have this view of the project, it's even more important that you back it up with what I asked for. If only for a chance to learn something or teach the MeeGo team something.

Come on, show the people that have been working on this that you actually have some valuable input. Your strong opinions suggests that you've at least done some analysis.

Development is just no way reaching ANY targets if you look at the time scale from day one to today the 1st September 2011.
You keep repeating things to this affect. Again and again. How about backing them up with why you think this?

Be a little more generous with your knowledge.

Meego is STILL at development stage with a useless ui that is not even half way there yet as so many components are missing STILL.
So far, every MeeGo developer that has voiced an opinion in this thread (unless I've misunderstood something) has ended up in "As it stands, MeeGo is not a drop-in replacement on the N900. But we're working on it.".

Might it be the case that their milestones and yours just aren't the same or just not planned or estimated at the same cost as the ones you're so adamantly trying to tell us that they failed to meet? Without any other argument than "Because I say so.", I might add.

Please be realistic here and look at what has actually happened ok.
I am very realistic. And I'm also very interested in a discussion where opinions are backed with actual arguments.
 

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tekki is offline tekki
2011-09-01 , 05:17
Posts: 60 | Thanked: 198 times | Joined on Aug 2011 @ Radical Realistic Open Source with JFDI instead of Bikeshedding
#227
Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
I'd really wish there was a simple Wiki page somewhere for those of us that are tacitly following it, so we could see where it is without having to read a whole forum, and join mail lists, and/or have MeeGo community members bring up unknown changes in status in arguments here.

One thing that's noticeably lacking is any information about anything since the "summer release". Is there another release planned? It sounds like things are moving to 1.3? From the look of the wiki, you'd guess the project is dead, since it's not seen an update since before the last release. (In fact, finding a link to the summer release page isn't that easy...)
Just a quick note on this one - the best thing you can do is either join meego-handset@ mailing list to receive notifications of new meeting logs/minutes or view it on http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/mee...gust/date.html (all months on http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-handset/ )

These meetings are where they report to their managers and they discuss directions. Of course there's hall way talks on IRC or IRL at times, but they don't have secret telephone conferences and such. So that's pretty much the best information source.
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Note: due to recommendations from my therapist, I'm ignoring abill_uk for the better of the community. If you echo any similar sentiments as him, feel free to message me or draw my attention to your post as I will gladly participate in reasonable and constructive discussions
Last edited by tekki; 2011-09-01 at 08:31.
 

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abill_uk is offline abill_uk
2011-09-01 , 08:23
Banned | Posts: 3,412 | Thanked: 1,043 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#228
The more i read on here the more ignorance i see and to be honest from what you all speak is total crap and by god i mean CRAP from the development point of view.

I have never in my life read excuses like you have on here and talk about AVOID THE ISSUE !!!.

What woody said really does sums it up and i will quote his words in highlight .....

"Personally, I don't think MeeGo (or MeeGo CE) is going to get much farther than it already has. It's running out of time and energy, and by the end of the year Nokia will likely shift to the N9 for MeeGo development. At that point MeeGo CE will spiral faster than a kite in a tornado, still not be as functional as Maemo, and Maemo will still be here. In 3 years we'll be talking about some other new project for some other new half-baked platform, and someone will reference MeeGo as the 2010 version of the ofono project. (Interesting silence on that point btw...)

If MeeGo makes it, great. Tell me when it can be used as a day-to-day system like my Maemo system has been able to do for almost 3 years. But don't tell me or others that developing for Maemo is a waste of time because it too closed and/or stagnating. Especially when the horse your backing just recently left the gate and is only now starting to trot a little bit while mine is half way across the field and still running strong. "

This just about sums it all up and i will add one more point, when i was debating this with stskeeps he informed me he was given access to ALL the closed components within Maemo, now what the hell is going on after 8 month you guys can only muster up a stupid ui that half works and please refer to other posts on here not just mine ok, where is the work being done? where is the progress past the release prior to the CE summer edition release? because it is abismally just about a working basic developers platform with absolutely no chance of making it past that.

Please read peoples post such as woody's and gerbick etc and try to get what is being said because all i am getting is nothing but excuses and that i am a bad bad manager or would be.

Meego for the N900 is just not ever going to make it and that is that and when you lot see the problems then you will either admit and move the development to a stage of a flashable image to take over Maemo OR give it up and go elsewhere where your work will be more appreciated.

Really this is making me angry to read such nonsense from grown up men that should know better.

Remember also the big words from stskeeps and his bussom pal wmarone were spouting just like qgil was about Maemo and the end result is ?.
Last edited by abill_uk; 2011-09-01 at 08:46.
 
abill_uk is offline abill_uk
2011-09-01 , 08:48
Banned | Posts: 3,412 | Thanked: 1,043 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#229
Originally Posted by joorin View Post
after reading this thread, i think i've gotten enough information to get a very high level overview of how the meego development has changed over time.

But, how i view it has nothing to do with your statement about the development being "slow going". At all. I can't agree with you about this with less than that you do what i asked you to: Back up your opinion with reasons other than "i think so." and we can talk about it.



If you can't back your managerial decision with more than an opinion, that it's "slow going", you're a really really really bad manager.

But, since you have this view of the project, it's even more important that you back it up with what i asked for. If only for a chance to learn something or teach the meego team something.

Come on, show the people that have been working on this that you actually have some valuable input. Your strong opinions suggests that you've at least done some analysis.



You keep repeating things to this affect. Again and again. How about backing them up with why you think this?

Be a little more generous with your knowledge.



So far, every meego developer that has voiced an opinion in this thread (unless i've misunderstood something) has ended up in "as it stands, meego is not a drop-in replacement on the n900. But we're working on it.".

Might it be the case that their milestones and yours just aren't the same or just not planned or estimated at the same cost as the ones you're so adamantly trying to tell us that they failed to meet? Without any other argument than "because i say so.", i might add.



I am very realistic. And i'm also very interested in a discussion where opinions are backed with actual arguments.
please please do not be blinkered and read other peoples posts on here !.
 
abill_uk is offline abill_uk
2011-09-01 , 08:57
Banned | Posts: 3,412 | Thanked: 1,043 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#230
If you developers want some inspiration then please go to this thread.....

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35699

And please note we are talking about Maemo here not Meego ok.
 
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