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juiceme is offline juiceme
2013-01-09 , 06:56
Community Council | Posts: 4,920 | Thanked: 12,867 times | Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland
#2461
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
But I thought OGG was dangerously proprietary! ...Or doesn't anybody remember that? I hope Jolla doesn't make these same stupid mistakes.
Well the paper you are quoting does have a slipup where it mentions Ogg as proprietary, as what should have been said (and what is actually meant when reading and UNDERSTANDING the document) is that the Theora video codec that is used with Ogg container is proprietary. In that paper the Nokia representative recommended use of H.264 as standard open video codec.
 
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danramos is offline danramos
2013-01-09 , 07:53
Posts: 4,672 | Thanked: 5,455 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA
#2462
Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
Well the paper you are quoting does have a slipup where it mentions Ogg as proprietary, as what should have been said (and what is actually meant when reading and UNDERSTANDING the document) is that the Theora video codec that is used with Ogg container is proprietary. In that paper the Nokia representative recommended use of H.264 as standard open video codec.
I have a couple of problems with your bizarre reply. Quoting directly from the position paper:

#1: "Anything beyond that, including a W3C-lead standardization of a 'free' codec, or the active endorsement of proprietary technology such as Ogg, …, by W3C, is, in our opinion, not helpful for the co-existence of the two ecosystems (web and video), and therefore not our choice."

Not specifically Theora, not even specifically Vorbis.. they're talking about Ogg which BOTH of them use as a container. They used an example of Theora for video and suggested H.264 as a substitute.. and even went so far as to go on and even suggest MP3 instead of OGG's audio (that would imply the Vorbis codec too, then).

#2: "Considering our requirements, we believe the widespread use of technically competitive, but not necessarily “free” open standards, such as H.264 for video and AAC for audio, would serve the community best."

So Nokia suggests replacing what is ACTUALLY a free and unencumbered container and codecs (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg which also includes references at the footnotes) with a knowingly patent-encumbered non-free set of containers and codecs (they even said as much, see the quote above)? Was this written on backwards day, or what?
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shmerl is offline shmerl
2013-01-09 , 07:57
Posts: 1,298 | Thanked: 2,277 times | Joined on May 2011
#2463
They just misuse the term "open" standard. In the context of the Web, open standard means not just documented, but royalty free. Any others shouldn't be called open. Mostly Apple and MS repeat this tune about fake "open" these days.

Luckily, for example Opus codec was approved as web standard. So when it'll be used in WebRTC, Apple and MS will look like idiots in not supporting it.
Last edited by shmerl; 2013-01-09 at 08:00.
 
zimon is offline zimon
2013-01-09 , 10:33
Posts: 1,341 | Thanked: 708 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#2464
Android is already so open (both Android kernel and Dalvik VM), opennes is no criteria anymore. From the open source code, for example CyanogenMod has been created which is totally independent from Google. One can choose to use some other app store, web search engine, social media and have nothing to do with Google if one doesn't want to.

Only thing which still somewhat bugs me, is that Android is not following many Linux standards (but neither is Ubuntu btw) and is not very compatible with mainline Linux. But hopefully to this there will be improvement. Google also sees it would benefit it if improvements in the mainline Linux kernel would be easily usable to Android kernel. Google has provided many battery saving features to upstream Linux kernel already and the forks are getting more close to eachothers

Linus Torwalds said one year ago:
At LinuxCon, Torvalds explained, that “there's still a lot of merger to be done. ... but that eventually Android and Linux would come back to a common kernel, but it will probably not be for four to five years.”
Some progress has been made already, so I am hopeful.
Android has so many things right, it may be easier to transfer it to fully Linux compliant mobile system, that build working mobile "ecosystems" from these other candidates (Tizen, Sailfish, ubuntu)
 
juiceme is offline juiceme
2013-01-09 , 12:37
Community Council | Posts: 4,920 | Thanked: 12,867 times | Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland
#2465
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Not specifically Theora, not even specifically Vorbis.. they're talking about Ogg which BOTH of them use as a container. They used an example of Theora for video and suggested H.264 as a substitute.. and even went so far as to go on and even suggest MP3 instead of OGG's audio (that would imply the Vorbis codec too, then).
Well, what was the first sentence in my posting?
I think I said "Well the paper you are quoting does have a slipup where it mentions Ogg as proprietary"

Do you agree with that sentence?
And further on, if Theora is free in all meanings of the word, free as FOSS, can you please enlighten me on that subject?
 
Lumiaman
2013-01-09 , 15:04
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#2466
Dumbramos is an Android troll. Not sure why he is here, when he doesnt own a single Nokia device. He should be banned immediately
 
shmerl is offline shmerl
2013-01-09 , 17:15
Posts: 1,298 | Thanked: 2,277 times | Joined on May 2011
#2467
Theora, Dirac and VP8 are free (as in FOSS) and open video codecs. New one that's work in progress is called Daala (https://wiki.xiph.org/Daala)

Vorbis is an open (FOSS) audio codec. As well as Opus. There are other open ones, like Flac for lossless audio for example.

Ogg is a container format (open and FOSS as well).
Last edited by shmerl; 2013-01-09 at 17:18.
 
gerbick
2013-01-09 , 17:21
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#2468
Free, as in FOSS, doesn't always equate to non-proprietary.
 
shmerl is offline shmerl
2013-01-09 , 17:35
Posts: 1,298 | Thanked: 2,277 times | Joined on May 2011
#2469
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Free, as in FOSS, doesn't always equate to non-proprietary.
Can you elaborate or give some examples? I'm not sure what it means being FOSS while being proprietary.

There are examples of OSS (open source software) implementations of proprietary technologies. Like x264 for H.264 codec. But it's not FOSS. I.e. while being open source, it's not free, since it's still patents encumbered.
Last edited by shmerl; 2013-01-09 at 17:37.
 
gerbick
2013-01-09 , 18:15
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#2470
Originally Posted by shmerl View Post
Can you elaborate or give some examples? I'm not sure what it means being FOSS while being proprietary.

There are examples of OSS (open source software) implementations of proprietary technologies. Like x264 for H.264 codec. But it's not FOSS. I.e. while being open source, it's not free, since it's still patents encumbered.
In this case, the submarine patents surround Ogg Theora is my biggest issue what I was implying more than anything else. The W3C is looking for an (HTML5) audio/video that's open, universally available and doesn't seem to be laden with patents that will stop integration into certain products.

Ogg Theora cannot say that. But to answer your question, Ogg Theora is based on a proprietary VP3 codec. That means that despite being open, it's a fork of what people would know/use and thus different and comes with certain limitations and/or workarounds that exist for a multitude of reasons. But it still makes it proprietary. That's what I meant.

Hope this answers your inquiry. And I state it all as opinion, not fact.
 
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