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jalyst is offline jalyst
2013-05-11 , 15:12
Moderator | Posts: 5,320 | Thanked: 4,464 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#2821
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
I think maybe you missed the thread of the conversation I was addressing: If Jolla has the idea to try to steal attention away from Samsung or Google I/O, I sincerely doubt they will succeed. To that end, it might even make them look bad because 1) it's obvious that they're trying to steal attention and 2) if fewer people turn up at their event or even pay attention to their announcement, they will have ruined their opportunity to capture a larger crowd when they HAVE some availability instead of making them choose one over the other event.
Someone just expressed that they "hope" they're able to do that... I srsly doubt Jolla thinks they'll steal attention in any impactful way via the placement of a conference. There's much more to it than that, & it'll be a long/hard slog. These "big reveals" are only a (potentially) important "jump start" to all of that. I've seen no evidence that they deliberately timed their event to be just after I/O & just before Tizen. If anything, it'd make more sense for the bigger players to do that...
Last edited by jalyst; 2013-05-11 at 17:15. Reason: typo
 
mikecomputing is offline mikecomputing
2013-05-11 , 15:52
Posts: 3,464 | Thanked: 5,107 times | Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gothenburg in Sweden
#2822
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
I think maybe you missed the thread of the conversation I was addressing: If Jolla has the idea to try to steal attention away from Samsung or Google I/O, I sincerely doubt they will succeed. To that end, it might even make them look bad because 1) it's obvious that they're trying to steal attention and 2) if fewer people turn up at their event or even pay attention to their announcement, they will have ruined their opportunity to capture a larger crowd when they HAVE some availability instead of making them choose one over the other event.
So when do the expert, DanRamos, that Jolla should launch its device to get the best possible attention?
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mikecomputing is offline mikecomputing
2013-05-11 , 16:14
Posts: 3,464 | Thanked: 5,107 times | Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gothenburg in Sweden
#2823
Originally Posted by jalyst View Post
It's not actually, this has been explained in quite a bit of detail before, why just blatantly make things up.
At this point it's probably worse than Android*, it's certainly not "wide open"...

*even Sailfish (not Nemo) is for now, until we hear the full story
Looking at the sources of SilicaComponents it seems atleast BSD license atm...

Don't know about mcompositor, lipstick and meegotouchtheme libs if its same as nemo?
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gerbick
2013-05-11 , 21:00
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#2824
Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
How open is tizen as a platform, is it possible and easy to install the standard gnu tools and utilities to it, or is it crippled the way android is?

For me tha most important thing is how the device behaves on the console level, the UI is not that important.
Not trying to pick apart your statement; but for a "crippled" OS, Android has a lot more stuff going for it - app-wise, development-wise and otherwise. Tizen is very open - SDK and source code are released and housed by the Linux Foundation. That's much more than MeeGo or Maemo offered.

The openness of Tizen on the licensing side though [ read more here ] is sorta up in the air - I'm personally impressed that I can use C++, Java, Adobe AIR, HTML5/jQuery and with a myriad of tools. Same for Android to be honest. Same for BlackBerry10 as well.

The UI is always important. Especially in a touch device. If you wanted just a terminal on a phone device, I'd suggest that you research how much of a minority you are in regards to marketing and buying power.

User interface and user experience can make or break an entire platform.
 
gerbick
2013-05-11 , 21:05
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#2825
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
...if Jolla has the idea to try to steal attention away from Samsung or Google I/O, I sincerely doubt they will succeed...
It's highly unlikely they'd do what Nokia and HTC has done to Apple and Samsung respectively by crashing their events and trying to schedule their events so close to their respective target.

Simply stated, that kind of **** doesn't work any longer.
 
gerbick
2013-05-11 , 21:07
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#2826
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
So when do the expert, DanRamos, that Jolla should launch its device to get the best possible attention?
I'm not Mr. Dan Ramos; nor an expert. But Jolla needs to release their wares when it's done and they have a proper distribution channel set up.
 
juiceme is offline juiceme
2013-05-11 , 23:48
Community Council | Posts: 4,920 | Thanked: 12,867 times | Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland
#2827
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Not trying to pick apart your statement; but for a "crippled" OS, Android has a lot more stuff going for it - app-wise, development-wise and otherwise. Tizen is very open - SDK and source code are released and housed by the Linux Foundation. That's much more than MeeGo or Maemo offered.
Most Android devices can be opened AFAIK but there is no single supported way to do it, the process of rooting a device is more a hack in practice. This is why I consider Android a crippled platform.
And even when rooted, it's not your standard linux distribution, where you are used to get just about anything in there by installing a deb or a rpm package...

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
The openness of Tizen on the licensing side though [ read more here ] is sorta up in the air - I'm personally impressed that I can use C++, Java, Adobe AIR, HTML5/jQuery and with a myriad of tools. Same for Android to be honest. Same for BlackBerry10 as well.
Until I see something concrete here, I will not hold my breath on the openness of Tizen. In the article you linked, Rasterman mentions that Tizen may be locked down due to company policy. If that does not happen, I am happy though.

As for Blackberry, that device is not linux, it's irrelevant to me.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
The UI is always important. Especially in a touch device. If you wanted just a terminal on a phone device, I'd suggest that you research how much of a minority you are in regards to marketing and buying power.
Nah, you're just wrong. Fluid user interface is nice to look at and operate, but that's just surface. What's important is that you have easy access to the real workings of the device, that you get things like access to the databases and call control from the command line using DBUS messages for example.
Why I consider it important; it makes prototyping so easy, you don't have to spend time in irrelevant details but rather can experiment with the things that come up to your mind using scripting languages and standard text-processing tools.

Maemo and Harmattan are far from fully open but they do get few things right; easy access to real command line, SW installation with real package management, ability to build and run your own kernel, documented interfaces to many internal interfaces.

As far as I have gathered information on Sailfish, opennes there is at least par with Maemo/Harmattan, propably more so. Even as I live and breathe Debian, I am ready to go RPM way if that's the price I need to pay.

I admit I might be in a minority but that does not mean my views are not relevant. For me the device openness is the most important thing. I have stated this before; it's not important to have the fastest core, not rhe flashiest GPU. Just fast enough is good enough, I value more long battery life and solidly built HW.
My dream device would have all GNU SW, all GNU FW and all GNU HW.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
User interface and user experience can make or break an entire platform.
Well WP8 has an user experience. Do you consider it a success?
 
gerbick
2013-05-12 , 03:02
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#2828
Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
Most Android devices can be opened AFAIK but there is no single supported way to do it, the process of rooting a device is more a hack in practice. This is why I consider Android a crippled platform.
That's not open, as in open source. That's open, as in open for use. And the fact that you have to unlock, root and possibly flash a custom ROM is not what people mean by open source.

I agree with Android being a "crippled" platform in the sense of open source. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the OS, licensing, et al. And again; for a crippled platform, a lot more was done on it than the more open offerings.

And even when rooted, it's not your standard linux distribution, where you are used to get just about anything in there by installing a deb or a rpm package...
And what exactly is a standard Linux distro for a mobile phone that's getting active support that you can buy today that actually is worth a damn. Please list them out.

Until I see something concrete here, I will not hold my breath on the openness of Tizen. In the article you linked, Rasterman mentions that Tizen may be locked down due to company policy. If that does not happen, I am happy though.
That's why I said up in the air. But at this very moment, I can download the open source of Android (AOSP) and Tizen and both of them are actively supported or will be supported.

Can't say the same for Maemo unfortunately. The support that this forum gives it is incredible - same for MeeGo - but it's not vendor or widespread support. So I can't count on it.

As for Blackberry, that device is not linux, it's irrelevant to me.
Why switch the subject? In no comment above was Linux mentioned until now. And now it's important? I'll play along...

QNX microkernel is POSIX based. That's more than enough for me. And it has current support and it's shown to be more extensible than most mobile Linux based offerings to date. Tizen, Sailfish will invariably change this statement though. MeeGo, Maemo... they're dead.

Nah, you're just wrong. Fluid user interface is nice to look at and operate, but that's just surface.
I'm wrong how? Your statements assume that you, the non-UI loving community actually amount up to people that want to type a command in order to make a phone call. Ain't nobody got time for that!

You are a minority. One that's never been catered to because nothing will make you happy. Ever. And you're such a small niche that you can't really state that you've been happy with any Linux Mobile to date that's still in production. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me - and I'll state it here, I could be VERY WRONG.

But as it stands, Harmattan was a great UI. And I had access to a real terminal.

What's important is that you have easy access to the real workings of the device, that you get things like access to the databases and call control from the command line using DBUS messages for example.
That's important to you and a very select few. Again, I can't stress upon to you that you are a very minor market. Linux Desktop is minor market - 1.21%. Linux mobile is even smaller (barring Android making the cut, which is doesn't). And you're talking about DBUS and commands... on a mobile device that makes phone calls? That an even smaller market that wants that - or even knows why they would want that.

Maemo and Harmattan are far from fully open but they do get few things right; easy access to real command line, SW installation with real package management, ability to build and run your own kernel, documented interfaces to many internal interfaces.
They did so much right. But they're both so very dead. Unfortunately it seems like marketing, poor distribution and being tied to Nokia just didn't help them both in the long-run.

As far as I have gathered information on Sailfish, opennes there is at least par with Maemo/Harmattan, propably more so. Even as I live and breathe Debian, I am ready to go RPM way if that's the price I need to pay.
Look to Mer. That's all you need to gather more information. And you'll walk away impressed, based on the prior correspondence of what you want from a device.

I admit I might be in a minority but that does not mean my views are not relevant.
Never thought that, to be honest. Just stating a fact that you're definitely a minority that just isn't catered to - unfairly so I might add.

Well WP8 has an user experience. Do you consider it a success?
Not at all. User experience can be good or bad. WP8's UI is pretty damn bad and boring to me... Harmattan still wins mobile UX in my opinion. Maemo 5 is a close second.

UX can make or break a platform. That will stand. The rest what you're talking about is access. And we agree there - I want access to that **** too. But not at the expense of the UX of when I'm not in the terminal. I like to do a lot of things at once, simple things. And I don't like to remember commands in order to make a phone call to my wife.
Last edited by gerbick; 2013-05-12 at 03:09.
 
jalyst is offline jalyst
2013-05-12 , 03:38
Moderator | Posts: 5,320 | Thanked: 4,464 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#2829
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Tizen is very open - SDK and source code are released and housed by the Linux Foundation.
This hasn't been my understanding...
Mine is that it's not as free flowing in reality as you're suggesting.
I don't suppose you can put your hand on links that validate this?
Ideally commentary from key devs involved, not just links to infra.
And governance/licensing are just as important in overall openness as code dumps.

That's much more than MeeGo or Maemo offered
That's not true, unless by "MeeGo" you're referring to Harmattan.
Last edited by jalyst; 2013-05-12 at 03:53. Reason: typo
 
gerbick
2013-05-12 , 03:54
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#2830
Originally Posted by jalyst View Post
This hasn't been my understanding...
Mine is that it's not all as free flowing in reality as you're suggesting.
You got any links that validate this?
Ideally commentary from key devs involved, not just links to infra.
Not sure what your point is. As far as it goes, there's not one mobile OS that's been fully open. Maemo, MeeGo, nor Tizen or Android.

Not a one. But the fact that people will argue incessantly about which is more open; doesn't matter in the end. Access to the SDK's, open source and it's hosted by Linux Foundation is pretty open. More than the aforesaid.

Edit: It seems like Tizen works with the Linux Foundation, not hosted by the Linux Foundation.

That's not true, unless by "MeeGo" you're referring to Harmattan.
Harmattan UI was closed. A lot of the stuff that Nokia had to do to make it work as a phone was closed - battery, GPS drivers, phone stack and a few others. Maemo 5, to be so "open" was rather closed as well.

The things that people champion as open, they're not. Not at all.

And it didn't seem to lengthen the lifespan of those projects.
 
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