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dirkvl is offline dirkvl
2013-10-21 , 15:04
Posts: 1,104 | Thanked: 5,652 times | Joined on Feb 2010 @ Holland
#91
Originally Posted by Egon View Post
I believe, however, that the other layout options have a lot higher priority. The German Qwertz keymat, Cyrillic (Russian + English) keymat, French Azerty keymat, Spanish/Portuguese/Catalan/Italian Qwerty keymat, Scandinavian Qwerty keymat, Chinese+English keymat, Arabic+English keymat etc. With all of them also English text can be entered easily, but it may be useful to add also the English layout to these options (so that you could find a couple of characters, such as Apostrophe ' in its standard place of the English layout).
It is possible to combine some of these layout options to use the same keymat. For example, with double labels on five letter keys, a special German Qwertz / Scandinavian Qwerty keymat can be made easily, for 7 or more languages. For details, please see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...79#post1381479


I guess that the cost (including all logistic expenses) might be around 110 for big market areas (USA, UK, France, Germany, Spain+Portugal´+Latin America, Italy, Poland, Russia, India, China...), if the OH variants are made with keymats. This is extremely difficult to estimate, because the share of logistic and design expenses depends a lot on how many OHs are sold. For the smallest market areas (Czech, Croatia, Greece, etc, if keymats are made for those languages), the expenses can be a lot more, perhaps more than 200. But these expenses are only theoretical. I'd say that if there is only a single keyboard variable (more or less an "English only" or "English mainly" or "Hacker's keyboard"), the expenses can grow very high (> 160), because the OH simply would not sell in large quantities (exept in USA; UK, India, and in the "hackers" market). So, I see that more than 5 language-specific keyboard options (keymats) must be made available.
Originally Posted by Egon View Post
This means that there can be, for example, 2 + 5 key columns on the left and 5 + 1 +1 key columns on the right. Here with 2 + 5 columns I mean the "2 keys wide space for the pointing device + modifier keys" + QWERT keys. "5 + 1 + 1" columns mean the YUIOP + Backspace key + 1-key wide margin (perhaps without any keys). Or, if the Backspace is not put on the right side of the P key, there can be a language-localized key, exactly in the same place as on full-size Qwertty keyboards: Å for Scandinavia, Ü for Germany, ´ for Spain+Latin America, etc.

????? -TL;DR?-

Perhaps leave the whole azerty/qwertz/üä/whatever layout 'till a later stage, because this is a lot of text and way to specific for now.

Originally Posted by mrsellout View Post
How about sticking the trackball on the reverse side, so you use it with your middle right finger, whilst using your thumbs for typing. The placement could be at an equal distance from the bottom as the camera is to the top, and recessed.
The LG-G2 has volume buttons on the back and HTC One Max has a fingerprint scanner on the back and I believe this did not get good reviews!
 

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Egon is offline Egon
2013-10-21 , 15:05
Posts: 65 | Thanked: 56 times | Joined on Oct 2013
#92
Originally Posted by mrsellout View Post
How about sticking the trackball on the reverse side, so you use it with your middle right finger, whilst using your thumbs for typing. The placement could be at an equal distance from the bottom as the camera is to the top, and recessed.
Good idea! Perhaps the trackball or another pointing device on the reverse side of the keyboard OH can be built in its upper part, which remains behind the phone when you slide the keyboard out (downwards). In that place there will be more space than under the keymat and PCB (if the keyboard OH is thinner than 8 mm, for example). You could then use the pointing device with the index or middle finger of your right hand. But can you build a trackball in such a thin keyboard OH? Perhaps a touchpad is more feasible.

Even if there were such an analog pointing device, the four arrow keys would be needed anyway on the keyboard. Or how could you make with a touchpad the same operations as those of Ctrl+Up, Ctrl+Right, for example?

After all, is an analog pointing device needed on the keyboard OH ? After all, there already is the touch screen on the phone. So, a rocker key or four arrow keys on the keyboard OH may be enough.
Last edited by Egon; 2013-10-21 at 16:39. Reason: 2 paragraphs added to the end
 
juiceme is offline juiceme
2013-10-21 , 16:17
Community Council | Posts: 4,920 | Thanked: 12,867 times | Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland
#93
Originally Posted by mrsellout View Post
How about sticking the trackball on the reverse side, so you use it with your middle right finger, whilst using your thumbs for typing. The placement could be at an equal distance from the bottom as the camera is to the top, and recessed.
My thought exactly, you only beat me in pointing that out... I had a Compaq laptop once that had the trackball on the underside of the display, in the right corner. Funny though it looked it was pretty neat placement for it actually.

On a mobile device sized aroung 5" the logical placement would be stack middle on the back ot the keyboard, accessible with either hand.

It could also be a touchpad area, or an IBM/lenovo type clitmouse.
 
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Kangal is offline Kangal
2013-10-22 , 04:30
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#94
I'm right handed, so a trackball on the right side means use with my right thumb for better comfort and accuracy.

If you have to use the touchscreen, remove your hand from the trackball.
You won't find yourself needing to touch the screen and trackball together.

Putting the trackball on the back is a bad decision.
Anyone who knows a little bit about these knows how fragile they are.
After a few knocks, they can lose their sensitivity and become frustrating to use.

A clitmouse won't work, unless its on the rear and its very soft and very sensitive.
Again, its something that sticks out/exposed.

I guess a trackpad would work.
You'd need it on the back, since they require more size than a trackball for swiping gestures.
I just prefer trackball on the front over a trackpad on the rear.
There's no replacement for tactile feedback.

Hell, the keys could be mapped so that you can use the keyboard like a gamepad.
Use the trackball as the Dpad/nub,
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Egon is offline Egon
2013-10-22 , 06:50
Posts: 65 | Thanked: 56 times | Joined on Oct 2013
#95
Originally Posted by Kangal View Post
... Putting the trackball on the back is a bad decision.
Anyone who knows a little bit about these knows how fragile they are.
After a few knocks, they can lose their sensitivity and become frustrating to use.

A clitmouse won't work, unless its on the rear and its very soft and very sensitive.
Again, its something that sticks out/exposed.

I guess a trackpad would work.
You'd need it on the back, since they require more size than a trackball for swiping gestures.
I just prefer trackball on the front over a trackpad on the rear.
There's no replacement for tactile feedback. ...
Would you mind if on the keyboard there were four arow keys, and a trackpad on its rear (in the middle)?
  • Trackpad can be used with the middle finger of either hand
  • Trackpad consumes minimum space
  • 4 arrow keys are needed for the most accurate cursor movements and shortcuts like Ctrl+Right, Shift+Ctrl+Down, etc (yes, they were easy with a sticky Ctrl or Shift key, or after Shift has been pressed twice for Caps Lock)
  • Also trackpad operations could be combined with modifier keys. What about scrolling with trackpad while pressing the Ctrl or Alf key?
Last edited by Egon; 2013-10-22 at 06:54.
 
epertinez is offline epertinez
2013-10-22 , 07:31
Posts: 54 | Thanked: 29 times | Joined on Nov 2007 @ Catalonia
#96
One thing: Is "the other half" able to be larger than the phone? I imagine in some cases such as ideal keyboard you could use half an inch more to have everything in place and still be smaller than an S4 or a Note.
 
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misterc is offline misterc
2013-10-22 , 08:18
Posts: 1,625 | Thanked: 998 times | Joined on Aug 2010
#97
keep dreaming...

if demo from Czech site (however a Czech site got its hand on a Jolla device) holds there will be hardly more space left for QWERTY kbd then on the N900

( video (in Czech) view of back is @ 2'56 a few seconds after beginning

wrong alert, this video is a hoax...
  • on any other pic (from the rear side) available (incidentally there are very few) the camera is more on the right side
    phonearea has several pics of the back, some with camera in the middle, some on the right...
  • fromt camera lens is towards the left edge (from the front) whereas on pics on the Jolla site it is closers to the “ear set”
  • buttons are on the wrong side; all pics & Jolla site are pretty consistent about that

still, many of the ideas forget to consider the limited height for rows of a slide out landscape QWERTY kbd due to the "hole" needed in any Other Half for the cam lens.
had that problem as well on the thread about hw kbd for N9 when considering using iCrap add-on kbds
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Last edited by misterc; 2013-10-22 at 09:10.
 
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Kangal is offline Kangal
2013-10-22 , 09:07
Posts: 1,789 | Thanked: 1,699 times | Joined on Mar 2010
#98
Its a waste of space having 4-arrow cursors on the keyboard... they use much more space than a trackball, and little more than a trackpad.

You could place the trackpad on the rear, save a little bit of space from the trackball.

By the way the keyboard concept is for phones as large as the SGS3/S4.
It seems Jolla phone might be a little too narrow and not quite as wide.

As I said before, Jolla should've used much cheaper components or make it more high-end. Remember how much interest the Ubuntu phone got?
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Egon is offline Egon
2013-10-22 , 09:13
Posts: 65 | Thanked: 56 times | Joined on Oct 2013
#99
Originally Posted by misterc View Post
keep dreaming...
if demo from Czech site (however a Czech site got its hand on a Jolla device) holds there will be hardly more space left for QWERTY kbd then on the N900

( video (in Czech) view of back is @ 2'56 a few seconds after beginning
Do you mean that the hole thru which you shoot video or photos while keeping the keyboard closed, becomes visible if you slide out the keyboard more than about 45%?
I see no problem here. Please don't be ashamed of the hole, let the Qwerty slide out 60% or 70%. If you want that the lens is better protected, you can screw a lens cover or a closeup lens into the hole. Then for ordinary photos, you'd need to slide out the Qwerty. A minor defect is that the hole may "eat out" 1 or 2 keys in the upper left corner of the keyboard. The Esc key of this keyboard, for example. On its left end can still be added a couple of keys, if you move all the keys a bit to the right (to make it more symmetric; its center between the T and Y keys). Then there would be 14 keys in the 3rd row from top, and 6 keys on both sides of the spacebar. But please do not use this Samsung keyboard as a model for the placement of modifier keys.
Attached Images
 
Last edited by Egon; 2013-10-22 at 09:37. Reason: Added "Then there would be 14 keys in the 3rd row from top ..."
 

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misterc is offline misterc
2013-10-22 , 09:36
Posts: 1,625 | Thanked: 998 times | Joined on Aug 2010
#100
NOKIA (very likely) never earned any money w/ Maemo/MeeGo
no option for Jolla

there is a choice to make...
  • high-end = high price (with higher margin) but fewer items
  • more "everyday" use = lower price (with less margin) but (hopefully) higher volume

NOKIA's "Maemo experiment" is here to prove how wrong the 1st option can be, aiming only at geeks (instead of high-end)
and when they finally made the move to mass market, it was too late
Jolla is picking up there... mass market
90% of the folks @ Jolla were part of the Maemo team; they know all to well they can't afford a niche.
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