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Leinad is offline Leinad
2013-12-03 , 22:15
Posts: 594 | Thanked: 1,094 times | Joined on Aug 2012 @ Rhine
#971
Originally Posted by Miharin View Post
This will decide if I'm jumping from gmail to outlook.com for a while.
you are jumping out of the frying pan into the fire...
 

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ejjoman is offline ejjoman
2013-12-03 , 22:25
Posts: 114 | Thanked: 409 times | Joined on Jun 2011 @ Germany
#972
I don't think, the android support is that bad for Jolla.
See that from the other side: Jolla needs customers. Without at least standard apps like WhatsApp, Twitter, Facebook and so on, nobody will buy a Jolla. I think that was a big point on the N9, too.

With a growing user base, the need for good apps will grow also. But only native sailfish apps can be qualitatively good on Jolla and the developers will probably start to port their apps to sailfish os, if there are enough users.

So, at first Jolla needs many apps to have a chance to get many customers and then the market will regulate itself.
That is how I see this and I think this is the right decision of Jolla.


I hope it is clear what i meant, sorry for my bad English :-)
 

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Miharin is offline Miharin
2013-12-03 , 22:27
Posts: 72 | Thanked: 75 times | Joined on Nov 2013 @ Finland
#973
Originally Posted by Leinad View Post
you are jumping out of the frying pan into the fire...
What choice do I have for a service that syncs mail, contacts and calendar? And works on Jolla?
 

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javispedro is offline javispedro
2013-12-03 , 22:37
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#974
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
But the N9 didn't get worldwide distribution, the reviewers are reluctant to switch from their "preciousssssss" and we're having to figure out a way to educate folks that don't want to learn/listen/think independently.
Reviewers won't switch from their preciousssss, and, because smalltime/cowboy/hobbist developers (which are the ones that supported Maemo and Harmattan) will have less itches to scratch*, there will be fewer native programs for the device.

In fact, all platform development will come from those of us who will reject to install the Android runtime no matter what, and thus will be in severe need of native applications. Unless a friggin miracle -- that did never happen in the many years a big name such as Nokia was behind this -- occurs and commercial developers start targeting the device.

* If you don't think that is the case, ask yourself: Would the Whatsapp protocol have been RE'd if it the official application could have been run in N9 since day 1?
Last edited by javispedro; 2013-12-03 at 22:41. Reason: someday I should try to preview before hitting submit
 

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Fuzzillogic is offline Fuzzillogic
2013-12-03 , 22:43
Posts: 479 | Thanked: 1,284 times | Joined on Jan 2012 @ Enschede, The Netherlands
#975
Originally Posted by Miharin View Post
What choice do I have for a service that syncs mail, contacts and calendar? And works on Jolla?
Any IMAP service. Any SyncML service. And hopefully soon: any CalDAV/CardDAV service. You can host it yourself, if you want.

I'd rather go without calendar/contacts syncing than using advertising companies like google, microsoft. And while you can get paid accounts, without the ads (and hopefully without the invasive tracking, but somehow I doubt that...) but they use non-standard protocols which they tend to change at their whims as well.

Use open protocols and trustworthy services. They are out there, really.
 

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gerbick
2013-12-03 , 23:16
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#976
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
Reviewers won't switch from their preciousssss, and, because smalltime/cowboy/hobbist developers (which are the ones that supported Maemo and Harmattan) will have less itches to scratch*, there will be fewer native programs for the device.
They switched to iOS and Android from what existed prior - mostly Symbian, BlackBerry and Windows Mobile. This new cycle that the majority is in currently is bound to wind down too. Then what?

The part about less itches to scratch... man, tell me about it. I think it's an isolation tactic that's counterproductive in terms of having native apps or rarely seen/used apps because it's not popular here but overlooking the popularity elsewhere.

In fact, all platform development will come from those of us who will reject to install the Android runtime no matter what, and thus will be in severe need of native applications. Unless a friggin miracle -- that did never happen in the many years a big name such as Nokia was behind this -- occurs and commercial developers start targeting the device.
And by "friggin' miracle", you mean money, right? Money (and marketshare) will deliver a native app. Folks not using Android could be a blessing - they'll end up writing native apps that take advantage of the UI only if they think it'll be well-received, well-used and they can make money and/or grab marketshare they've been shut out of before.

Sadly, the way that anything popular is shunned here, say goodbye to native Instagram, Skype, Vine and a few others because well... nobody here would use it, the market that owns a Jolla phone also would rather use Diaspora, Tox.im, and something else (lord I forgot the name of that pic sharing web app, M-something).

* If you don't think that is the case, ask yourself: Would the Whatsapp protocol have been RE'd if it the official application could have been run in N9 since day 1?
If Whatsapp was there on day one, we'd complain about it then too. It's closed source, it's not secure, it's not interfaced by terminal... I can continue.
 

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Miharin is offline Miharin
2013-12-03 , 23:18
Posts: 72 | Thanked: 75 times | Joined on Nov 2013 @ Finland
#977
Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
Use open protocols and trustworthy services. They are out there, really.
Can you give me even one example? What are you using (for calendar/contacts/email, not just email)? I really want to know. And as you know CalDAV is not supported on Jolla for the time being. Who knows how long it will take? I need calendar syncing, and I don't have access to an Exchange account because I don't work in such a company where I could obtain one.
 

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MartinK is offline MartinK
2013-12-03 , 23:21
Posts: 1,548 | Thanked: 7,510 times | Joined on Apr 2010 @ Czech Republic
#978
Originally Posted by Miharin View Post
Can you give me even one example? What are you using (for calendar/contacts/email, not just email)? I really want to know. And as you know CalDAV is not supported on Jolla for the time being. Who knows how long it will take? I need calendar syncing, and I don't have access to an Exchange account because I don't work in such a company where I could obtain one.
Maybe Owncloud ?
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Last edited by MartinK; 2013-12-03 at 23:57. Reason: typo fix
 

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biatch0 is offline biatch0
2013-12-03 , 23:35
Posts: 226 | Thanked: 195 times | Joined on Nov 2009 @ Malaysia
#979
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Sadly, the way that anything popular is shunned here, say goodbye to native Instagram, Skype, Vine and a few others because well... nobody here would use it, the market that owns a Jolla phone also would rather use Diaspora, Tox.im, and something else (lord I forgot the name of that pic sharing web app, M-something).
Molome?

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
If Whatsapp was there on day one, we'd complain about it then too. It's closed source, it's not secure, it's not interfaced by terminal... I can continue.
Valid point (I agree with both you and javispedro just to be clear).

My 2 cents: If WhatsApp was available on day one, the people who complained about insecurity would be the ones who most likely have the ability to develop their own "secure" alternative... if they wanted to. That said, those people who wanted a secure alternative would probably be allergic to WhatsApp and insist on using something like SilentCircle or whatnot.

The majority of people who picked up the N9 and just wanted to use WhatsApp would probably never have even signed up on TMO in the first place if that had happened
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javispedro is offline javispedro
2013-12-03 , 23:49
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#980
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
They switched to iOS and Android from what existed prior - mostly Symbian, BlackBerry and Windows Mobile. This new cycle that the majority is in currently is bound to wind down too. Then what?
Yes. I was expecting to use this example history of recent migrations as an example of the reason on why you don't need a large `application baggage' to be a successful platform. In my opinion, thus, having Android applications does not imply or is even a necessary condition for reviewers ditching their `preciouss'.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
The part about less itches to scratch... man, tell me about it. I think it's an isolation tactic that's counterproductive in terms of having native apps or rarely seen/used apps because it's not popular here but overlooking the popularity elsewhere.
Obviously, because you are cutting off the emulation, the net result of the isolationist tactic is that you have less access to popular and not-that-popular programs. I fully acknowledge there is a tradeoff here. The benefit is that, because such lack of access to popular programs implies more demand for native programs, there are more native programs.

I am realistic: if you're interested in having access to as many programs as possible, then I'm certain the emulator strategy will work much better for you. But precisely because you will be content, you will not call as much for native applications (e.g. to developers on this forum) and the net result is less native applications. Therefore, (a) `isolationists' lose (b) Jolla loses.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
And by "friggin' miracle", you mean money, right? Money (and marketshare) will deliver a native app. Folks not using Android could be a blessing - they'll end up writing native apps that take advantage of the UI only if they think it'll be well-received, well-used and they can make money and/or grab marketshare they've been shut out of before.
Yes, money and marketshare deliver native applications. There are two plausible scenarios:
a) Jolla device ends up getting money and marketshare
b) Jolla device never gets money and marketshare

By my first point on this post, I'm going to assume that shipping an emulation layer does not have an impact on whether a or b is most probable (debatable). If (a) happens, then it does not matter whether you destroyed demand for native applications by shipping an emulator -- you will have native applications either way. So win win situation.
If (b) happens, which is, IMHO, the most probable, then only hobbists will be the ones actually developing for the platform. In this case, and by arguments in my previous post, you've basically killed your platform by shipping an emulator. Or at a minimum, you've made it way less enticing for hobbists to develop native applications for the platform.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Sadly, the way that anything popular is shunned here, say goodbye to native Instagram, Skype, Vine and a few others because well... nobody here would use it, the market that owns a Jolla phone also would rather use Diaspora, Tox.im, and something else (lord I forgot the name of that pic sharing web app, M-something).
While I would personally shun Instagram, Skype, Vine and the like, you cannot argue that there is development and demand for these applications in this very forum. A good example of that is.... (see below)

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
If Whatsapp was there on day one, we'd complain about it then too. It's closed source, it's not secure, it's not interfaced by terminal... I can continue.
And despite my complains it happened, and there was demand for it.

And thus I lost a bit more faith in humanity, but that's another story.
 

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