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Poll: How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB
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How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB

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joerg_rw's Avatar
joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2015-03-10 , 21:05
Posts: 2,222 | Thanked: 12,651 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3
#2291
could we now revert on topic please, which is _not_ about comparing Neo900 to arbitrary Android or Apple smartphones that are _not_ free and don't provide any of the major product features of Neo900. When you are disappointed about Neo900 not being competitive to that class of devices meanwhile, I can't help but ask why you didn't notice it never been. This was obvious the very moment we announced the idea.. See posts #1 to #20 in this thread.

/j
 

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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2015-03-10 , 21:22
Posts: 7,075 | Thanked: 9,073 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
#2292
So whats the next step?
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I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
 

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CRCulver is offline CRCulver
2015-03-10 , 21:36
Posts: 27 | Thanked: 72 times | Joined on Jan 2012
#2293
joerg_rw, while the device has never been competitive, its uncompetitive specifications were more tolerable when the device was first announced and obviously would have been more acceptable at the first projected release date on the Neo900 website than the current one (or lack thereof).

Also, the topic of this thread is the Neo900 project, which must include some voices feeling that the project has been a failure. Yes, you are proud that the device is free, and that initially attracted many people including myself. However, that some people (I’m clearly not the only one) have lost interest in the project in spite of that promised freedom, due to the inability of the project to come through in time, is a development that should be represented in the thread. If you want a thread with no negative opinions whatsoever, maybe start a separate Announce thread? I’ve already expressed my opinion and don’t want to keep harping on the theme, but seriously, you’re complaining about negative views?

It is worth mentioning, however, that freedom wasn’t the only attractive feature of the Neo900. Having a “real Linux” phone as opposed to Android was another major selling point, and Ubuntu Touch and (depending on one’s view) Jolla are now promising that.
Last edited by CRCulver; 2015-03-10 at 21:46.
 

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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2015-03-10 , 21:51
Posts: 2,222 | Thanked: 12,651 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3
#2294
Yes, you made that pretty clear. However "interest in the project" is not the same like "supporting the project" (hint: the number of devices to build is strictly limited to the number of preorders and there never been a promise that you could buy a device as late as on sales start - only those who preordered in the soon closing preorder period will have that option), and I think the delays have been discussed in here already and for sure you did a sufficient job to cover that lately. So what's you point? Did you still not made it? What's the contructive criticism in what you insist to elaborate on here? We for sure won't cease and tear down the project since you lost interest in it. And I don't think perpetuating this sub-thread/topic will help to speed up stuff either.
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2015-03-10 at 22:11.
 

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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2015-03-10 , 21:58
Posts: 2,222 | Thanked: 12,651 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3
#2295
Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
So whats the next step?
There are a dozen "next steps", starting at BB-xM 1GB-RAM&NAND rework for a few boards, to proto_v2, to sending some prototypes to the FPTF devels so they can test FPTF-maemo on real hardware, to securing risk parts, to sourcing N900 parts, to bringing up web shop, to...
All this is already ongoing and I don't know which of those "next steps" will yield tangible newsworthy results first.

cheers
/j
 

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Ken-Young is offline Ken-Young
2015-03-10 , 23:24
Posts: 387 | Thanked: 1,700 times | Joined on Feb 2010 @ Cambridge, MA, USA
#2296
Originally Posted by CRCulver View Post
...
However, that some people (I’m clearly not the only one) have lost interest in the project in spite of that promised freedom, due to the inability of the project to come through in time, is a development that should be represented in the thread.
...
Why? If you've lost interest in the project, why are you still interested in posting to a thread devoted to discussing the project?
 

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wicket is offline wicket
2015-03-11 , 02:40
Posts: 634 | Thanked: 3,266 times | Joined on May 2010 @ Colombia
#2297
Sorry to continue this off-topic discussion (if there are any mods reading this, it might be a good idea to move related posts into a new thread).

Originally Posted by CRCulver View Post
It is worth mentioning, however, that freedom wasn’t the only attractive feature of the Neo900. Having a “real Linux” phone as opposed to Android was another major selling point, and Ubuntu Touch and (depending on one’s view) Jolla are now promising that.
That really depends on your definition of "real Linux". I would find it difficult to categorise both Jolla and Ubuntu Touch as traditional Linux (but then again the world of Linux has changed so much in recent years). Both use Android video drivers, new display servers, major components are closed (not sure about Ubuntu on that one) and have both headed down the "one init system does everything for you" route. Of course, as long as the kernel is Linux they can always be thought of as "real Linux", just like Android.

What does Linux mean to me? To summarise, I would say a mostly free (libre), Unix-derived OS that stays faithful to Unix philosophy meaning it is loosely-coupled, making it easy to chop and change whatever you like. Unfortunately those days are over for the majority of Linux distributions.

Maemo doesn't even entirely meet that definition either however at least it is compatible with existing software made for Linux to the extent where most software will run after a simple recompile with maybe some minor modifications.

Unlike every other modern phone (except maybe the GTA04A5), the Neo900's best feature for me is its openness. It has not been designed with only one OS in mind, making it the ideal platform for me to continue development of what I consider to be "real Linux". The privacy features come as a fantastic bonus that is just unheard of everywhere else in today's world.
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DebiaN900 - Native Debian on the N900. Deprecated in favour of Maemo Leste.

Maemo Leste for N950 and N9 (currently broken).
Devuan for N950 and N9.

Mobile devices with mainline Linux support - Help needed with documentation.

"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." - Henry Spencer
 

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pichlo is offline pichlo
2015-03-11 , 09:00
Posts: 6,453 | Thanked: 20,983 times | Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK
#2298
@wicket, I agree with everything you've said above except the notion that this discussion is somehow off-topic. Expressing one's views, whether positive or negative, about a project are very much topical in the thread about that project (especially a general one like this - it might be different in one of the parallel threads discussing some technical details).

Not only that: I see calls for moderators to filter only one sided views a very dangerous trend. The only acceptable potential reason for such moderation would be abusive language and/or personal attacks, and CRCulver has taken care not to slip down that path.

I personally see the occasional pat on the shoulder a healthy thing. If you cannot handle criticism, whether "constructive" or not (and I am not even going to start on who decides what is constructive), then you*) should start by looking inwards first. There is a nice English saysing, "if you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

*) General "you", not addressing anyone in particular.
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Last edited by pichlo; 2015-03-11 at 09:56. Reason: spelling
 

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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2015-03-11 , 11:56
Posts: 2,222 | Thanked: 12,651 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3
#2299
We did it! Prolly the first BeagleBoard-xM (which is the reference design for our DM3730) worldwide with 1GB RAM - for sure the only device except Nokia N9 I know of that has a OMAP3 and 1GB RAM on PoP *): (quoting a report I received from Nikolaus)
Code:
Texas Instruments X-Loader (MLO) 1.4.4ss modified for GTA04 (Mar  7 2015 - 18:35:51)

> OMAP36XX/37XX-GP ES2.1
> Board detected: Beagle xM Rev A
> SYSBOOT[5:0]: 0x12/18
> GMPC Memory: 3
> SDRC Memory 5 5: SAMSUNG MCP 512(?)MB/bank

^^^ well, this is currently hard-forced in my code

> Reading FAT boot sector
> Loading u-boot.bin (296020 bytes) from mmc/sd
> 
> 
> U-Boot 2011.03-rc1-00967-g671281f (Feb 09 2015 - 16:15:52)
> 
> OMAP36XX/37XX-GP ES2.1, CPU-OPP2, L3-165MHz, Max CPU Clock 1 Ghz
> OMAP3 Beagle board + LPDDR/NAND
> I2C:   ready
> DRAM:  1 GiB

^^^ looks good!

> 
> —— snip ——
> 
> [    0.000000] Memory: 1004440K/1047552K available (5817K kernel code, 592K rwdata, 2280K rodata, 404K init, 8173K bss, 26728K reserved, 16384K cma-reserved, 252928K highmem)

Linux is now booting (didn’t with this mirrored RAM address ranges)!

> 
> —— snip ——
> 
> Linux gta04 3.19.0-gta04+ #992 SMP Mon Feb 9 09:04:09 CET 2015 armv7l
> 
> The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
> the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
> individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
> 
> Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
> permitted by applicable law.
> root@gta04:~# cat /proc/meminfo 
> MemTotal:        1021228 kB
> MemFree:          905016 kB
> MemAvailable:     995204 kB
> Buffers:            7076 kB
> Cached:            89968 kB
> SwapCached:            0 kB
> Active:            69492 kB
> Inactive:          31260 kB
> Active(anon):       3728 kB
> Inactive(anon):      148 kB
> Active(file):      65764 kB
> Inactive(file):    31112 kB
> Unevictable:           0 kB
> Mlocked:               0 kB
> HighTotal:        269312 kB
> HighFree:         242656 kB
> LowTotal:         751916 kB
> LowFree:          662360 kB
> SwapTotal:             0 kB
> SwapFree:              0 kB
> Dirty:               452 kB
> Writeback:             0 kB
> AnonPages:          3712 kB
> Mapped:             6664 kB
> Shmem:               172 kB
> Slab:              12100 kB
> SReclaimable:       6716 kB
> SUnreclaim:         5384 kB
> KernelStack:         448 kB
> PageTables:          216 kB
> NFS_Unstable:          0 kB
> Bounce:                0 kB
> WritebackTmp:          0 kB
> CommitLimit:      510612 kB
> Committed_AS:      29916 kB
> VmallocTotal:     245760 kB
> VmallocUsed:       23120 kB
> VmallocChunk:     125352 kB
> CmaTotal:          16384 kB
> CmaFree:           16128 kB
> root@gta04:~#
Many thanks to Ivo and Nikolaus!

We now urgently need to raise more funds to secure those 1GB chips for the number of devices we plan to build, as well as for other similar risk parts. We also are about to source a sufficient number of used/refurbished N900 to revamp for the LCD, digitizer, mechanical parts, for those who want a complete device rather than a PCB to upgrade their own N900. Those will presumably also cost ~100some bucks per device, so we need to raise "funds" for those too, from prospect customers of complete Neo900.
I'm in the painful process to set up a proper webshop where you can place regular preorders to purchase parts of your Neo900 we're going to build for you, please stay tuned and keep your kitty in reach :-). The target for this preorder DOWNPAYMENT will be around 300EUR (total incl any "donation" you already did) for the NeoN bare board which will cover ~40% of the final price, and a 150EUR on top for the N900 we will use to mount the NeoN board into for you (you'll receive a supposedly working spare N900(!) PCB with that).

cheers
jOERG

*) some question that arrived at me was: "why don't you go for 2 or 4 GB already?" A: 1GB is the physical maximum an OMAP3 can address. So we hit the limit, can't do any better
PS: reposting since some managed to turn this news into a bickering about sense of the project
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2015-03-11 at 12:09.
 

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British is offline British
2015-03-11 , 12:00
Posts: 103 | Thanked: 493 times | Joined on Mar 2012 @ France
#2300
While I'm also not too fond of the screen when it comes to thumbing, for the rest I definitely stand in the I-can-wait-as-long-as-it-takes corner.
If my N900 dies horribly and is unrecoverable, then I have another one waiting.
If that one also gets totalled, I can either get another one somewhere, or go back to my N9...
That's how highly I think of the "alternatives".

So yeah, do what you have to, joerg, and make me/us proud (and happy).
Last edited by British; 2015-03-11 at 13:33. Reason: Typo
 

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