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gerbick
2016-02-16 , 17:36
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#21
It just hit me... Sailfish OS satisfies a need that this group needs. BB10 satisfies another group of needs.

In the end, they just do not intersect in large ways. I find BB10 easily meets the requirements of users that need to communicate, get things done, have some convenience and for people that have bought into the "app" mentality.

Sailfish is for the Linux loving crowd that loves terminal (sorry, but fingerterm on Jolla ****ing sucks) and want a very granular control and access and aren't too worried about getting things done but want the option to do things to the core OS and functionality.

I'm quite sure I've basically listed out terrible stereotypes but Sailfish on a BB device while novel wouldn't be any better for that kind of stereotypical user of BB10 devices. And of course, vice versa.

As a director of my division, I need to do **** and communicate it. I rarely have time to tinker or play with the minutia of an OS like I used to with my N810 or so. I need to do my job and unfortunately my job isn't OS related.

A lot of you guys are OS/kernel devs or the like. But that's my take - you guys are a different group with different needs.
 

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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2016-02-16 , 17:42
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#22
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
It just hit me... Sailfish OS satisfies a need that this group needs. BB10 satisfies another group of needs.

In the end, they just do not intersect in large ways. I find BB10 easily meets the requirements of users that need to communicate, get things done, have some convenience and for people that have bought into the "app" mentality.

Sailfish is for the Linux loving crowd that loves terminal (sorry, but fingerterm on Jolla ****ing sucks) and want a very granular control and access and aren't too worried about getting things done but want the option to do things to the core OS and functionality.

I'm quite sure I've basically listed out terrible stereotypes but Sailfish on a BB device while novel wouldn't be any better for that kind of stereotypical user of BB10 devices. And of course, vice versa.

As a director of my division, I need to do **** and communicate it. I rarely have time to tinker or play with the minutia of an OS like I used to with my N810 or so. I need to do my job and unfortunately my job isn't OS related.

A lot of you guys are OS/kernel devs or the like. But that's my take - you guys are a different group with different needs.
Where does Ubuntu fit in in this realm of yours?
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gerbick
2016-02-16 , 17:57
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#23
Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
Where does Ubuntu fit in in this realm of yours?
Besides Ubuntu being on my server? They've yet to prove themselves on any device that I'd purchase especially lacking in conventional multi-tasking.

But since you asked nicely; I'd say that Ubuntu is for folks that want an option to iOS and Android. After that, I'd say it'll satisfy the OS tinkerers that wish to fully customize their experience but I've yet to see evidence that's fully the case yet but would not be surprised that's the case.

I'm just not curious about it quite yet but will investigate sooner than later. And your take?
 

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2016-02-16 , 17:57
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#24
Exactly! That's what I am talking about. There is no such thing as an objective measure of the quality of an OS, whatever billranton wants to believe. Whatever measure you come up with will always be subjective.

For some people here, an OS is a means to an end. The most of the world does not give a crap. An OS is a tool, and a very low level one at that. You don't care who supplied the screws holding your kitchen table together, as long as it fulfils its function, holding your plates so you can have your dinner on it (or whatever you do on your kitchen table). In the same way, no one cares what OS runs on their phones, as long as they fulfil their function, making calls and sending SMS, emails and Whatsit messages.

EDIT: The above was written in response to post #21, but Dave got in while I was typing it. Editing it on a Jolla to add a quote is a real PITA.
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gerbick
2016-02-16 , 18:01
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#25
Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
(or whatever you do on your kitchen table)
I normally do not tempt fate... but I eagerly await the responses to this quip.
 

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billranton is offline billranton
2016-02-16 , 23:04
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#26
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Eh? Who needs to jailbreak it and for what reasons?
Open operating systems don't need to be jailbroken because they aren't closed. The user is in control of the OS. I don't think any OS that needs to be jailbroken for the user to have access to everything can be considered a real OS.
 

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gerbick
2016-02-16 , 23:18
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#27
Originally Posted by billranton View Post
Open operating systems don't need to be jailbroken because they aren't closed. The user is in control of the OS. I don't think any OS that needs to be jailbroken for the user to have access to everything can be considered a real OS.
That answers absolutely nothing.

Again I ask... who needs to jailbreak BB10 and to do what? Control of the OS is too damn vague. Specifics please.

And this whole "not a real OS" - how does it feel to see a real OS not really mean much? Maemo, dead. MeeGo, dead. Sailfish, not a big time player by any stretch of the imagination. Ubuntu Touch, not really a big player either. FirefoxOS, dead.

And I don't want to get into the argument that embedded Linux is a "real OS" either. I'm talking about on a handset, much like the QNX powered BB10 or the Mer powered Sailfish as this thread has talked about until now.

This whole "it's not real" based on some vague ****ing rhetoric is a waste of everybody's time because if a real OS happens to come out, the support is so piss poor that all it really seems to be is an exercise of doing something just because it can be done.

So far, in 20 years of owning a handset, I've yet to see how this amounts up to much in that sector. On my router, hell yes it's important. On my desktop and servers, it's important. On my handset; it's not meant much of anything yet. All of my faves have died or will have died by the time I get my hands on it.

You do not have to jailbreak BB10 to use it. Not in the least. It's a real OS because last I checked, it runs and does things that people want it to do; well, not you apparently. I don't need chmod, ssh and have the ability to rebuild the kernel for BB10. And if I did have access to that, it doesn't make it any more "real". It just makes it into something that you want... and that mentality is a minority. See above why... none of those "real OS" products have ever lived on yet.

Like I said before... different needs are met by different mobile operating systems. I don't require granular control whereas you do. Do not impress upon me your needs for that; I'm not doing that to you.
 

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billranton is offline billranton
2016-02-17 , 00:07
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#28
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
That answers absolutely nothing.

Again I ask... who needs to jailbreak BB10 and to do what? Control of the OS is too damn vague. Specifics please.
Again, it's not that they need to jailbreak it. It's that jailbreaking shouldn't even be a thing. Locked down operating systems are for DVD players, games consoles and other peasantry. For your specifics, see everything that people got around aegis to do.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
And this whole "not a real OS" - how does it feel to see a real OS not really mean much? Maemo, dead. MeeGo, dead. Sailfish, not a big time player by any stretch of the imagination. Ubuntu Touch, not really a big player either. FirefoxOS, dead.
Doesn't really matter. I like what I like, and I don't judge the superiority of an OS based on its popularity, nor do I need the world to comply with it. I expect a bit better from people who know their way around the insides of a computer though. It breaks my heart when I see someone who used to enjoy tinkering with things give up and fill their lives with Apple stuff.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Like I said before... different needs are met by different mobile operating systems. I don't require granular control whereas you do. Do not impress upon me your needs for that; I'm not doing that to you.
So why did you start this discussion? You declared BB10 to be 'superior' to Sailfish, then retreat into different strokes when that is challenged? It's always going to be hot in that kitchen.
 

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gerbick
2016-02-17 , 00:32
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#29
Originally Posted by billranton View Post
Again, it's not that they need to jailbreak it. It's that jailbreaking shouldn't even be a thing. Locked down operating systems are for DVD players, games consoles and other peasantry. For your specifics, see everything that people got around aegis to do.
So... nothing specific still. Because you can jailbreak something and that you have to, as you had stated are different things. Please support your initial statement. So far you have not.

Doesn't really matter. I like what I like, and I don't judge the superiority of an OS based on its popularity, nor do I need the world to comply with it.
But you will need some popularity for it to continue to exist.

I expect a bit better from people who know their way around the insides of a computer though. It breaks my heart when I see someone who used to enjoy tinkering with things give up and fill their lives with Apple stuff.
And I hate it when folks make a simple task into something far more complex because they like to feel superior because they've memorized some esoteric commands in order to do something that's relatively simple yet fulfilling to a very small minority and call it the best way without any regard to that added complexity addition to wasted time in ones day.

So why did you start this discussion?
Because I could. Now, why haven't you given me one specific answer yet?

You declared BB10 to be 'superior' to Sailfish, then retreat into different strokes when that is challenged? It's always going to be hot in that kitchen.
Nope. I gave my details. I double dog dare you to do the same. Sailfish browser is second class, renders a lot of HTML5 sites incorrectly and defaults to mobile on the tablet. The pkcon vs zypper install methods oft do not capture all dependencies if you've inherited a shitty program from Openrepos. The permissions are done great, but that's really the brilliance of Mer. The UI at times still lags. And above all, it's unlikely to be around on many devices and/or supported for much too long unless Jolla works out all of their problems - actually BB10 shares this one feature.

Doesn't seem hot in this kitchen at all. I can answer direct questions. Prove that you can.

Edit: I see exactly what you're trying to do. Do not shove this into some discussion where you've yet to discuss the advantages or disadvantages of the things that make an OS important to you meanwhile dismissing anything else stated that you do not agree with as unimportant. I've stated the two cases more than once in this thread and throughout my tenure here at ITT/TMO. Different strokes for different folks. But you have yet to prove that jailbreaking is necessary. I've had a BB10 dev device since day one, never had to jailbreak it. I've sideloaded everything imaginable, but never jailbreak. I've jailbroke my PSP, GameCube (yep, it plays Japanese games), many embedded OS systems, even my Pioneer car stereo. But I've not had to do that to my BB10 device in order to do much of anything. Want to change the default Twitter app - there's instructions do just that. There's other things that alter the defaults of the OS - you're talking about much... well, ****. You've yet to answer.

Please feel free to do so. Do not change the course of this discussion. I stated my unpopular opinion, I can back it up. You've retorted; yet to respond fully.

Nothing personal, but you've shown me nothing in this regard yet. All I've seen are some rather esoteric needs that really equate to what your parameters are... sadly, I stated as much in the need for granular control. It's important to you. I get that. But in the end, you cannot defend your stance for jailbreaking... yet.
Last edited by gerbick; 2016-02-17 at 00:44.
 

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szopin is offline szopin
2016-02-17 , 00:40
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#30
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
But you will need some popularity for it to continue to exist.
Nope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd
 

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